MDMA long term effects on anxiety and depression?

[JawlessRegent64]

Hello everyone, this is my first post in the forums so if I go about anything the wrong way please help educate me (ex. where to post, using wrong phrases etc.)
I am curious and trying to compile research on how MDMA effects anxiety and depression in the long term. Not by over using or abusing the substance, but more in terms of proper dosing on a semi frequent basis or micro-dosing. I have read many articles about it being effective in treating PTSD in many veterans but I am more curious about whether or not it could boost your overall serotonin production resulting in less severe or "cured" depression. Could it be taken in small doses and eventually not at all and result in positive long term effects on mental health?
Could it also help prevent anxiety? I have also heard that overuse of the drug can essentially result in your brain being unable to produce serotonin resulting in a sort of permanent depression, is this factual? I know that LSD has very positive effects on anxiety and depression and overall brain function, Does MDMA have the same or similar effect in controlled doses? I have had 3-4 tested MDMA experiences each time taking no more than a tenth, each time I have noticed improvements in my depression and anxiety and my ability to cope with them in the long term without drug (illicit or prescription) has become better overall. Is this just some sort of placebo effect or is there actual evidence and research to back this up? I am unsure where to look for non biased anti drug answers to these questions.
If this post does not belong in this forum please help direct me somewhere my questions can be answered. I have a busy schedule so my response time back to any responses I receive may be scattered. If this post should not be in this forum but you have answers to my questions or can provide cited articles, please feel free to send me a private message or email.
Thank you for any help in advance, any attempt to answer my questions or point me in the right direction is much appreciated. I look forward to talking with many of you as I get used to the flow of the website.

 

[ryannn]

well well, if the mdma is able to treat the depression and the anxiety with a minor dose, why the government itself treat it as the illegal drugs. Only the weed is the best for curing for depression and anxiety.
Yes, the MDMA is super effective to treat the anxiety and the depression. However that is on your honeymoon period only can treat is effectively. However the most critical part is the serotonin depletion, when the serotonin depleted, you will faced more depression than the previous. No matter how minor you took to cure your anxiety and your depression. For eg, 1 week one time, the serotonin is not able to produce as fast as you think. So if you want to treat the depression, please use the supplement from the doctor, else you will get worse from the mdma

 

[terarc]

I'm sure it could potentially provide an excellent adjunct to therapy for depression or anxiety when used in a few sessions only.

Prolonged use of the drug though (not necessarily hyper-frequent, just continuing to use it semi-regularly for a long period) will eventually achieve the opposite of depression and anxiety relief.

It is also not suitable to microdosing in the same way psychedelics are. I'd be doubtful of whether it would be helpful for anxiety and depression without therapy attached, too.

As far as I know MDMA actually disables the enzyme which converts tryptophan to serotonin for a couple of weeks, so actually makes it more difficult to get serotonin levels back to normal after use. The studies I've read showed that serotonin levels peak under the influence, drop off to below normal levels as it wears off, return to normal the next day, but then suddenly drop back to below normal a couple of days later, and take weeks to return to normal again.

 

[Clocktower]

Your questions have not been studied enough to provide conclusive answers. (We do know that depression can be a side effect of MDMA abuse though). Check out MAPS for the latest: http://www.maps.org/research/mdma

 

[BlueBull]

Weed is definitely not good for some people for long term anxiety treatment. On the contrary it is very capable of causing or worsening anxiety when used frequently and for long periods of time. I know a lot of people that get panic attacks from weed, whether they smoke it, eat it or vape it. My gf for instance gets a panic attack every time, no matter how small the dose. Someone else I know never had a panic attack in her life, she got one from spacecake and now she gets them regularly when sober, about once a month

well well, if the mdma is able to treat the depression and the anxiety with a minor dose, why the government itself treat it as the illegal drugs. Only the weed is the best for curing for depression and anxiety.
Yes, the MDMA is super effective to treat the anxiety and the depression. However that is on your honeymoon period only can treat is effectively. However the most critical part is the serotonin depletion, when the serotonin depleted, you will faced more depression than the previous. No matter how minor you took to cure your anxiety and your depression. For eg, 1 week one time, the serotonin is not able to produce as fast as you think. So if you want to treat the depression, please use the supplement from the doctor, else you will get worse from the mdma

 

[JawlessRegent64]

Thank you all for your responses. I just wanted to clarify that I am asking these questions for personal research only and not for at home treatment of anxiety and/or depression.
And to answer the question about why the government keeps it classified with other drugs if it would be beneficial. Wouldnt that be the same reason that still in half the states were fighting for legal marijuana? And LSD has been proven to have significant effects on anxiety and depression both and has been proven to be safe (so long as its actual LSD and not a fake) yet still they're not allowed to administer it even in a controlled enviroment... I wish more research wad allowed to be conducted on these topics. I personally believe this could lead to great results. Starting with legalization of Marijuana. Though research is inconclusive and insufficent enough to answer my question, i thank you all for your effort.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I'm sure it could potentially provide an excellent adjunct to therapy for depression or anxiety when used in a few sessions only.

Prolonged use of the drug though (not necessarily hyper-frequent, just continuing to use it semi-regularly for a long period) will eventually achieve the opposite of depression and anxiety relief.

It is also not suitable to microdosing in the same way psychedelics are. I'd be doubtful of whether it would be helpful for anxiety and depression without therapy attached, too.

As far as I know MDMA actually disables the enzyme which converts tryptophan to serotonin for a couple of weeks, so actually makes it more difficult to get serotonin levels back to normal after use. The studies I've read showed that serotonin levels peak under the influence, drop off to below normal levels as it wears off, return to normal the next day, but then suddenly drop back to below normal a couple of days later, and take weeks to return to normal again.

1. Unfounded assertion, low dose MDMA has proven effective in some people -- it is no different than adderall

2. Untrue. In many persons there is no negative dysphoria, they have afterglow - always, and no loss of magic

3. 15 mg BID was very effective for OCD/ruminating thoughts/anxiety -- symptoms completely resolved -- trial period was 6 weeks of daily MDMA administration at a dose of 15 mg BID (twice daily) after completion of the trial symptoms remained abated for several weeks, however they returned, subject reports daily or every other day administration as identified above -- ongoing for several months with no negative effects and no impact on "magic" from recreational doses (120-150 mg)

4. At low doses the effect is not worth mentioning, even at recreational doses the inhibition is actually minimal -- animals injected with 10 mg/kg had serotonin levels returned to baseline in 24 hours

Please stop spouting myths and unfounded assertions as if they are facts:

MYTH: MDMA uses up all your serotonin -- FACT: It uses some, however your body is always synthesizing serotonin, a recreational dose doesn't even deplete all the stores in the brain, regardless rates of synthesis return serotonin to baseline levels in a few hours, furthermore -- even after total tolerance to MDMA caused by daily administration of 120-160 mg for 6 consecutive days, MDA elicited largely the expected response - A. Shulgin, PHIKAL ; without serotonin that would not occur.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

MDA elicits a response because it is an agonist and is not dependent on the vesicular pool of serotonin??

 

[Jabberwocky]

MDA elicits a response because it is an agonist and is not dependent on the vesicular pool of serotonin??

No, its a releaser just like MDMA but less strong

The simple fact is -- it is extremely difficult to actually deplete your serotonin.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I realize it's a releaser, but my point is that it's not MDAI we're taking about, MDA is a releaser for DA/NE too, and other receptors it has affinity for could be playing a role in its effects. It's effects aren't 100% dependent on the vesicular serotonin reserves.

The question isn't really can MDMA deplete vesicular stores of serotonin but rather at what doses can MDMA deplete vesicular serotonin stores, and how does this interact with people who have underproductive variants of TPH.

 

[Clocktower]

1. Unfounded assertion, low dose MDMA has proven effective in some people -- it is no different than adderall

I know you have personal experience with this, but I'm uncomfortable with the last clause. A study with a sample size of one and no peer review is not a lot of foundation for any assertion.

2. Untrue. In many persons there is no negative dysphoria, they have afterglow - always, and no loss of magic

This of course is technically correct but it feels like a pretty big pendulum swing from terarc's answer. I think a more complete synthesis would be that some people experience depression/anxiety from prolonged MDMA use but some do not - and who is in which group is strongly influenced by the frequency and dose at which they use.

Please stop spouting myths and unfounded assertions as if they are facts:

MYTH: MDMA uses up all your serotonin -- FACT: It uses some, however your body is always synthesizing serotonin, a recreational dose doesn't even deplete all the stores in the brain, regardless rates of synthesis return serotonin to baseline levels in a few hours, furthermore -- even after total tolerance to MDMA caused by daily administration of 120-160 mg for 6 consecutive days, MDA elicited largely the expected response - A. Shulgin, PHIKAL ; without serotonin that would not occur.

Look, obviously that myth is a myth. But if you're going to write something after "FACT:" in all caps, it has to be based on something more substantial than an above-average trip report - which is what Shulgin's private experiments amount to. If you're going to use less-than-scientifically-precise language, it has to be based on more than one peer-reviewed study. If it's going to be a fact about MDMA, I think the studies supporting it should at least involve MDMA in some capacity.

 

[Jabberwocky]

But if you're going to write something after "FACT:" in all caps, it has to be based on something more substantial than an above-average trip report - which is what Shulgin's private experiments amount to. If you're going to use less-than-scientifically-precise language, it has to be based on more than one peer-reviewed study. If it's going to be a fact about MDMA, I think the studies supporting it should at least involve MDMA in some capacity.

COLD HARD FACTS:

Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 1990 Mar;35(3):637-42.
[h=1]Tolerance and cross-tolerance to 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), methamphetamine and methylenedioxyamphetamine.[/h]Zacny JP1, Virus RM, Woolverton WL.

[h=3]Abstract[/h]The effects of (+-)-3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) (0.62-20.0 mg/kg), (+)-methamphetamine (MA) (0.62-5.0 mg/kg) and (+/-)-3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) (0.62-5.0 mg/kg) on milk intake in rats were determined before and during a period of repeated daily administration of MDMA. Experimental sessions consisted of 15-min access to a sweetened milk solution each day, 5 days a week. After initial determination of the effects of MDMA, MA and MDA on milk intake, rats were injected daily with either MDMA (2.5-5.0 mg/kg) or saline. Two groups of rats were injected with MDMA, one group 15 min before, and the other group 15 min after the milk-drinking sessions. Two more groups of rats were injected with saline, one group 15 min before, and the other group 15 min after the sessions.


During this repeated administration period the effects of MDMA, MA and MDA (injected 15 min prior to the session) were redetermined. In rats that had been injected with MDMA on a daily basis either before or after the milk-drinking sessions, the dose-response function of MDMA was shifted to the right, indicating that tolerance had developed. Cross-tolerance to MA appeared to develop only in the group of rats that had been injected with MDMA on a daily basis before the milk-drinking sessions. Cross-tolerance to MDA did not develop in any of the 4 groups of rats.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1971112


Apparently some effects of MDA are cross tolerant to LSD -- which provides some support for a foundation for no cross tolerance between MDA and MDMA (aside from some slight dampening of dopaminergic response)

A pharmacologic comparison of 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine
and LSD in the chronic spinal dog
by
Nozaki M, Vaupel DB, Martin WR.
Eur J Pharmacol 1977 Dec 15;46(4):339-4


ABSTRACT


MDA (2.0 and 2.2 mg/kg) was compared to LSD (10 microgram/kg) and d-amphetamine (3.2 mg/kg) in single dose, antagonism, cross tolerance and appetite suppression studies. In single doses MDA specifically resembled d-amphetamine by producing marked mydriasis, nictitating membrane retraction, stereotypy and darting eye movements and LSD by markedly facilitating the flex or reflex, producing continuous stepping, whining and eye tracking movements. LSD and MDA increased respiration, body temperature and the latency of the skin twitch reflex and produced behavioral arousal. Cyproheptadine antagonized the effects of LSD but was ineffective against MDA. Phenoxybenzamine antagonized the respiratory, pupillary and hyperthermic effects of MDA and the respiratory effect of LSD. Chlorpromazine antagonized many of the effects of LSD and MDA. Spinal dogs were made tolerant to the behavioral and physiologic effects of LSD. Cross tolerance developed to some but not all of the effects of MDA. In intact dogs MDA was 1/10 as potent as d-amphetamine in suppressing appetite. It is concluded that MDA has properties resembling both LSD and amphetamine.

 

[luxray]

When mentioning the Shulgin's, one should probably also mention their recommendation of using MDMA no more than 4 times a year.

Ann: "I would advise anyone who wants to use MDMA not to take it more than 4 times a year if you want to continue to get the best effects from it, otherwise you risk losing its effects entirely and permanently."

https://www.erowid.org/culture/characters/shulgin_alexander/shulgin_alexander_interview2.shtml

 

[Thanos90]

Before 1 year I consume 20-70mg m*ma (never used drugs)

I had extreme social anxiety before use,speaking with others was fk hard
Going to market was a nightmare
If you suffer from social anxiety you know what I mean

But what happened after use?
I wake up another person,suddenly I wanted to speak with people
When I was speaking with someone I didn't fear of dieing and my face wasn't warm
I went to market like a normal person
I went to bank ALONE to pay the loan
Speaking with people made me happy
I was thinking why that happened ???
Why that "auto "fear of social anxiety suddenly disappeared?
I wanted to buy clothes and go out
I was care for my outlook

In general after use I was back to normal self

But I had some physical symptoms like weaker hands,some burning sensation right of my stomach while making sudden moves,vivid dreams and some others that I don't remember

Now after 1 year I can tell you that I speak with people without fear

I have a little burn sensation random days at stomach(I think that hypothalamus fked up)but I don't care
Vivid dreams are rare

Do m@ma heal my social anxiety?Yes completely
It change my brain...I got some + and some -

The experience was bad,I don't want to remember the rolling,I don't suggest you to take this powerful drug
You risk your life


*I got social anxiety from video games,8-10h per day,anxiety is motherfker