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Mathematics for organic chemistry

Polluted_Mind

Polluted_Mind

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Messages
187
Thought I would ask here as many BLers seem to have (not surprisingly) gone down this path. Say you were planning a double major in organic and medicinal chemistry (focus on drug design), what maths would you need? My course guide just says to choose "some mathematics units", but doesn't specify at all what type. Basically I want to only study those which will be directly needed in this major (ie: are prerequisite knowledge, or will be very beneficial).

Here are the options:

Differential calculus (I'm assuming this is one as have already encountered the Schrödinger)
Linear algebra
Integral calculus and modelling
Statistics
Discrete mathematics
Graph theory
Vector calculus
Real and complex analysis
Introduction to partial differential equations
Number theory and cryptography
Algebra (this is an advanced course, so not basic algebra)
Probability and statistical models
Statistical tests

Any advice would be greatly appreciated :D%)
 
Calculus and Differential Equations are what you are most likely to come across in your actual work, particularly if you bring your chemistry to more pharmacological directions (pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics both require a working knowledge of differential equations). Also, probably stats, but I'm not sure. Mathematicians/physicists I know tend to hate statistics classes, because they oversimplify and bunch of formulas that took much, much more advanced mathematics to actually understand.

But calculus and Diff Eq's for sure.
 
Linear algebra and complex analysis too. If you are going to be dealing with the "physicy" side of chemistry, which would almost certainly need to do design drugs based around receptor binding and interactions, you will be doing a lot of linear algebra and complex analysis.
 
calc, diff eq, linear algebra, and statistics (basic stats and statistical tests)

the ones that are more abstract and less useful would include: discrete math, number theory, graph theory, algebra (it blows anyway)

if you really kick ass in math and have the time, real and complex analysis are great and useful topics that will help you understand the whole world of math on a much deeper level. but they're much more advanced than the necessities, so i would focus on the more basic ones first.
 
Prob/Stats might be good. O-chem uses very little math (statistics are useful for processing data). Pchem uses a lot of calculus and linear algerbra.
 
I had done stats, calculus (well, 10 years prior OUCH), and of course regular algebra when I took my Organic Chemistry classes. I've never heard of majoring in Organic Chemistry. Organic Chemistry is usually a base for Biochemistry which is usually where people graduate to after organic/inorganic classes.

I only needed 2 labs in Biochem to double major, but I just graduated and said "fuck it." I had done 2 Organic Chems and 2 Organic Labs to double major. Like rangrz said, if you are looking to get more into the physics or advanced chemistry classes, you'll probably have to worry about more advanced calculus with your Master's. I took every chemistry class my undergrad college had and even got permission for some graduate chemistry classes, but all of them dealt with more of a biochemistry basis rather than organic chemistry. I did not have to do any other math other than first semester Calculus.
 
Thanks for the great replies everyone, that's super helpful, I really mean it.

Just one other question though: I noticed a couple of you mentioned physics in relation to drug design. Is it a very physics intensive area? Would you need to know detailed aspects of say quantum chemistry, molecular mechanics, etc?

I knew one had to have at least a fundamental understanding such as first-year which I'm doing now (my professor keeps reminding us that no-one truly understands science unless they grasp physics, lol), but thought that the the prerequisite knowledge for physics in this field was taken care of by the standard physical chemistry that such a major would require?

I'm guessing it all comes down to what sort of subfield one ends up in: structural based, rational, or computer-aided, etc?

ty
 
Polluted_Mind said:
Thanks for the great replies everyone, that's super helpful, I really mean it.

Just one other question though: I noticed a couple of you mentioned physics in relation to drug design. Is it a very physics intensive area? Would you need to know detailed aspects of say quantum chemistry, molecular mechanics, etc?

I knew one had to have at least a fundamental understanding such as first-year which I'm doing now (my professor keeps reminding us that no-one truly understands science unless they grasp physics, lol), but thought that the the prerequisite knowledge for physics in this field was taken care of by the standard physical chemistry that such a major would require?

I'm guessing it all comes down to what sort of subfield one ends up in: structural based, rational, or computer-aided, etc?

ty
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I'm pretty sure you need to take physics in order to take physical chemistry. Somebody can correct me if I am wrong.
 
^

You don't need to take physics to take physical chem. Physical chem has it's own set of abstractions and equations that are separate from physics (i.e. think of ideas like functional groups and ring strain...which are unphysical handwaves and legitimately make me facepalm when I hear chemists talking) Plus like, most of the stuff in physics that you would get at an undergrad level that is even kind of related to chem...well, it's going to be kind of too abstract and not really useful. Physical chemistry is "A chemist looking at physics from a chemists point of view" and is fully a chemistry sub-field. Chemical physics is "A physicist looking at chemistry from a physicist's point of view" and is an entirely different subject that falls under physics and has physics pre-reqs.
Is it a very physics intensive area? Would you need to know detailed aspects of say quantum chemistry, molecular mechanics, etc?
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It is pretty physics intensive. Solving approximations of Schrodinger's equation for macro-molecules to find molecular orbitals (how else are you going to design a molecule to interact with a receptor in some given way?), statistical mechanics and thermodynamics to deal with how the drugs are going to be distributed and react in body. Some solid state/condensed matter physics...particularly colloids and similar areas for drug delivery. Anything which involves detailed/intricate manipulation or understanding of systems on the order of 10-6 meter (or above 103) is probably going to start involving a lot of physics. Between there, you can usually get away with handwaves and approximations and some simple classical mechanics of rigid bodies...outside that area, you *need* to start dealing with the gritty physics of it. Not that you don't in between, but there are a lot of in between sized systems you can handwave/ignore the physics of. But above/below, you really can't.

I agree with your prof on the understanding physics is needed to understand science... sure sure, bias from a physics grad student you say? But even in my undergrad life sci, I found everything made so much more sense as I advanced my physics understanding.
 
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^

Pretty much... except mathematicians unto themselves are *so* flabbergastingly disconnected from the physical universe that they are fully dependent on scientists to make their chalk boards/dry erase markers/computers work.
 
Hahaha wow I love that xkcd, hadn't seen it before. I actually had that 'hierarchy' of scientific purity in my head, in exactly that order, but the comic makes it so much more funny and relateable. Also agree with rangrz statement that mathematicians are so far gone towards the 'purity' side that much/most of what they do is totally inapplicable to the real world without scientists to "translate" it into something workable.
 
^i think impracticality is a point of pride for some of them. it was hard for a lot of the folks in my grad program to grasp that i wanted to actually "do things" with numbers instead of just talk about them in the most abstract way possible.

(also the alt-text of that comic might be the funniest part)
 
3 said:
I'm pretty sure you need to take physics in order to take physical chemistry. Somebody can correct me if I am wrong.
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At my school you didn't, but you had to take physics to graduate and physical chemistry was an upper level course and physics was a sophomore class, so most people had taken it by then.
 
Lysis said:
At my school you didn't, but you had to take physics to graduate and physical chemistry was an upper level course and physics was a sophomore class, so most people had taken it by then.
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Oh ok, that's how I got the idea that physics was a prerequisite. As I remember it, at my college/the one I will transfer to, physics is a 3000 (junior) level class while physical chem. was a 4000 (senior) level class. So I assumed it was a jump from General chemistry (1000 level), to calculus and organic chemistry (both 2000 level), to physics, to physical chemistry which prior to this thread I believed to be the application of materials learned in physics to principles learned in chemistry. Interesting to know that physics is sometimes a sophomore level class.

Good to know, although I believe all of those classes will eventually be required for my major.


I'm going to be in college forever. I've been at community college for 3 years now (if you don't include the 4 year hiatus due to severe sleep issues), and I have my 60 credits but still need about 40 more in order to have a proper AA in my chosen major, and therefore be able to transfer directly to whatever BA program I am interested in. Fuck.

Anyways, thanks for the clarification, much appreciated.
 
At the school I started my undergrad in and where my fiance is, and where her brother is on his last credit for a B.Sc physical chem, physics and physical chem have multiple courses from the 100 level to the 400. My fiance *had* to take a physical chem 100 level course as a req for her immunology/pharmacology degree...

Physical chem is a MAJOR discipline of chem and physics is arguably the biggest/broadest subject in the science (it afterall covers everything from the large scale structure of the universe to the components of hadrons) So they're not just one course that only depends on the year you're in. They go from high school to Ph.D and.Nobel prizes.
 
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