maois (in ayawaska/ayahuasca) and suboxone- safe?

[Shambles]

All I could find on the subject was that an MAOI may possibly slightly increase the effect of bupe. Maybe your friend is unusually sensitive to the combo? Not a dietary thing at all?

 

[daysonatrain]

i cant say if he is unusually sensative to the combo, since hes only tried it once. its possible it could have been a dietary thing, though we are both well experienced with ayahuasca and therefor maois, so i imagine (and he stated) that he followed the dietary guidelines suggested. but since this is second hand from me, i cannot be entirely sure. and he smokes a shitload of weed so perhaps his memory slipped that day

funny how i got way more responses this time around after the fact than before. thanks again for the research you did for me shambles, muchos gracias.

 

[Shambles]

Hehe. No problem, Days. I'm not overstimmed (or even slightly stimmed) tonight so no trawling Google from me this time

It sounds like an idiosyncratic reaction if other reports are to be believed... but that doesn't help you or your friend unfortunately

 

[daysonatrain]

yup, doesnt matter anymore, im in arizona with the ayahuasca and hes in maine, so im just gunna go to the national forest and do the last dose myself

 

[amanitadine]

yeah i was on suboxone for a few years, high dose, 12 mg daily, and never noticed any interaction whatsoever with MAOIs....my trips were dulled however. in fact, everything was slightly dulled. I sometimes miss that lack of sheen ;D a strange thing, my smoked n'n' dmt trips were suprisingly two dimensional on suboxone, almost more amnesia than depth, and i would surmise to say that this was more an expression of my personality at the time rather than any pharmocological interaction...

 

[Albertocelotl]

Hey bluelighters,

Got a quick question that i couldn't find the answer to, maybe someone out there can help out. are maois safe to do in combination with prescribed suboxone for addiction maintenance. A friend and I had planned on taking an ayahuasca trip, however he is currently taking 8mgs of suboxone daily. I havnt found anyone saying that opiates react badly with maois (or any info saying its fine really). And though sub isnt an opiate it kinda works on the same receptors (i think...).

Im very, very, wary of trying this out with him, since i cant imagine anything worse than seeing my friend getting seratonin syndrome while high on dmt (though we would have a trip sitter) not to mention the possibility of a close friend dying.

I guess another option would be for him to stop taking it, but the half life is like 72 hours i think, so he'd have to be off for like a week, which would then lead to withdrawals, not a good state to trip in.

Chance are i will not do this unless i get a definative answer (with a source) that there is no contraindication between the two.

Thanks for any info anybody out there has.

Peace,
-DoaT

Hi. I don't know the exact mechanisms of suboxone, but as a strong opioid it should imply considerable sertonergic and/or adenergic activity-release. The question here is not DMT, but Harmala alcaloids, which account for a lot of the entheogenic and healing experience of Ayahuasca (in fact, the alcaloids from ayahuasca, without the chakruna or dmt containing leaves), and harmalas are strong MAOIs-RIMAs, reversible monoamineoxidase inhibitors, specially of the mao-a type, so they block the monoaminoxidase, thus inhibiting the decomposition of amines (that's why DimeThylTryptamine becomes orally actice), specifically serotonin and noradrenaline, in MAO-A inhibition. Opioids tend to exhibit a serotonin and/or noradrenaline release, so taking them in conjunction with an MAOI (even if reversible one as harmalas, and more because entheogenic doses tend to be rather high), could make easier, if the opiod is sertoninergic, for a serotonin syndrome to develop, and if is adrenergic enough, a hypertensive crisis, both reactions that could be dangerous, from some light symptoms, as hyperreflexes of the eye and dizzyness, or a headache from higher BP, to severe symtpoms that may need emergency intervention.

It depends on the type of opioid, while tramadol, for example, would be a no-no and imply serious serotonin syndrome; for kratom, which is a noble, not opiate plant, but with alcaloids acting in opiod receptors, one can take small doses, but the higher the doses of either MAOIs or kratom, the higher the risk of a hypertensive reaction, and although may not be too severe, I've read some reports from just ugly expriences to risky one where a user had to take amlodipne for lowering BP or either go to hospital, in a risky situation, this when taking tranylcypromine, which is a stronger and irreversible MAOI, but anyway MAO-A inhibition of harmalas is not light or shallow.

I've read that ecause I've actually heard from some source that if you're on a low dose of Suboxone, it'll be relativelye safe to take it with RIMA MAOIs, but anyway, I'm no expert in this combination and caution should be very present and followed.

The serotonin syndrome risk with suboxone and DMT I don't think would be significant, nor of hypertensive crisis, but in conjunction with harmalas or any MAOI, it's another different story or animal. Also, you're giving too much importance to DMT, which is important, but the distinctive personality of ayahuasca (or ayahuasca related) compounds, and part of the deepest teachings are given by harmalas, they are psychedelic and entheogens on their own, without the need of DMT, and in traditional sacred sciences it is a fact that the ayahuasca-harmalas are 'The Power, 'The Book' or "the Path", and chakruna and DMT analogues on the brew, are the "The Light", so expect something really different from smoked DMT or pharmahuasca, like DMT activated by Moclobemide, another RIMA, but not a healing deep enhteogen, as Harnalas.

Be safe.

Greetings.