making a 25I-NBOME nasal spray

[Tokkotai]

Hi,

i know this topic has been covered by several other threads but i want to make sure i am getting this right.

These are the things ive bought to do this:

- Several brown glas vials with a 18mm screw top ranging from 5ml to 20ml.
- 3 nasal spray atomizers
- destiled water
- 96% ethanol
- 25-28.5 mg 25I NBOME Hcl
- some medical gloves and some syringes (ranging from 1 to 5ml)

I wrote to my vendor if the 25mg 25I-NBOME would be measured accurately, and got the answer that the amount can be up to 15% more, so i think i have between 25 and 28,5mg.

First i tested how much one spray the atomizers will deliver per spray, i took a 10ml vial, filled it with 5 ml of destiled water and how much pumps i needed to empty the bottle, i did this 10 times for each atomizer.
The first one took an average of 44,8 sprays(min 42, max 48 ), the second one 48,7 sprays (min 43, max 53), the third one was broken.

So my idea was to make a solution with around 20% ethanol so it would be bacteriostatic and store it in my freezer.

I thought of making 20ml, here are the numbers for this.

First Atomizer

ml per spray / sprays for 20ml / delivered 25I (25mg) / delivered 25I for 28,5mg
Minimum 0,119ml / 168 / 149 µg / 170
Average 0,112ml / 179,2 / 140 / 159
Maximum 0,104ml / 192 / 130 / 148

Second Atomizer

ml per spray / sprays for 20ml / delivered 25I (25mg) / delivered 25I for 28,5mg
Minimum 0,116ml / 172 / 145 µg / 166
Average 0,103ml / 194,8 / 128 / 146
Maximum 0,094ml / 212 / 118 / 134


I think these numbers are ok. The maximum difference is 52µg which is ok for a substance like 25I-NBOME. The overall average for each spray will be 137µg. What do you guys think?
I dont want to make a solution for 1mg/1ml because 1ml is a lot of liquid in the nasal passage and tends to dip out when i am not standing upright.
Will the 25I-NBOME dissolve in the solution or do i need to heat it a little bit? I have the Hcl.
I tested spraying 4 sprays of the 20% vol mixture (without the 25I) in my noses and it was quite unpleasant and seemingly irritated the inside of my nose, could adding some salt fix this? How much salt should i add to make a saline solution?
I want to use the 20ml vial to store the solution in the freezer and the 5ml to carry with me if i intend to use the 25I-NBOME. Can the 20ml bottle break if i put in the freezer? Is putting the solution in the fridge maybe enough?

 

[Nexus_Tripper]

Why do you want to die?

 

[psynce of sound]

I can see 25I intranasal leading to disaster. Heard far far too many horror stories about vasoconstriction and such similar physical issues.
Sounds like you've got a well thought out strategy to the process. Be very careful and start low.

 

[Lovermane808]

Your plan sounds pretty solid but you're relying on the vendor's claims and a margin of error which could be much wider than you intended. Please be careful because
intranasal 25I is very risky and easy to unintentionally overdose on. It has caused deaths and severe health complications already, making it a needlessly dangerous route of administration.
I didn't really take the risks of intranasal 25x seriously until a friend of mine died while on it. My other friend who was tripping with him at the time had a seemingly normal and safe dose, and was fine apart from the trauma of watching his best friend die in total agony.

Maybe your calculations are more accurate and your doses would be more consistent than my friends' were, but you're playing with fire for no reason here.

 

[Shaal]

I think you made the good choice by assuming the 28,5 mgs.

However, I would not do it until I had checked the weight myself with an appropriate scale (0.001g, or even more accurate). Not with a substance with such low active quantities.

I once prepared a solution, with a guess at the mass too, but it was with a substance active in much larger quantities.

 

[Tokkotai]

Thanks for your answers so far.
The vendor i am working with is a very trustworthy, if not the most trustworthy/best vendor for research chemicals. So i think i can rely on the claim that the amount would be from 25-28.5mg.
But you guys made me think, i know the 25X-NBOME series are scetchy substances and pose a real danger.
But is it really that bad? I mean, of course the danger taking these is higher than the danger associated with other substances with a known safty profile like lsd. But what are the odds?
Taking drugs is almost always a risky behavior, especially taking research chemicals.
Erowid has 10 fatalities https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/2ci_nbome/2ci_nbome_death.shtml
The EMCDDA count is 2 fatalities file:///C:/Users/PC/AppData/Local/Temp/TDAK14001ENN.pdf
Every fatality is one to many.
People also die using cocaine, but when someone posts a thread about HR using cocaine he usually doesnt get answers like

Why do you want to die?

 

[Quiglesigles]

This Nexus_Tripper guy has posted nonsense on every 25x-nbome thread on the front page of PD. Yes nbomes can be dangerous but calling them a "poison" is ridiculous. If you have something to say, back it up with evidence. Telling people they are going to die if they take any amount of these chemicals isn't helping anyone.

 

[infantannihilator]

This Nexus_Tripper guy has posted nonsense on every 25x-nbome thread on the front page of PD. Yes nbomes can be dangerous but calling them a "poison" is ridiculous. If you have something to say, back it up with evidence. Telling people they are going to die if they take any amount of these chemicals isn't helping anyone.

agreed.

titrate, titrate, titrate.

for me 25i was a unique and memorable, although at some points nearly overly intense experience. 800ug intranasal. 0 to space in a minute or so. Amazing. I wouldn't go much higher than that specific dose for myself personally, with that specific batch.. I would start low at what you imagine to be 400ug, and move up in 200-250ug increments, the response curve is steep as a mother fucker and what you might think would be little increases are a lot. I did 400ug and then the 800ug and it was easily 50x more intense, actually 400ug was barely threshold it felt like. I read a lot about other peoples doses at the time and knew of people posting about doing well over a mg by this roa, and honestly, I think I would have had a real bad time had I not been smart and worked my way.

 

[Incunabula]

There shouldn't be any doubt that NBOMes are vastly more dangerous than any other psychedelic that exists. Since there are so many much, much more safe alternatives, there's really no reason to risk your life with them.

Comparing NBOMes with cocaine is just wrong for so many reasons. Actually, snorted cocaine is relatively safe, as far as I am informed, and the dangers lie in addiction (which at its root is a psychosocial problem, imo) and from adulterants like levamisole.

The dangers of NBOMes come from it having the potential of of killing you with just one single dose. Yes, many deaths are probably because of overdoses, but remember, no one is infalible, you too can overdose by accident!!! And if that happens, NBOMes are not as forgiving as other psychedelics. Also, some deaths seems to not have been caused by an overdose.

Add to that, that many more deaths have occured than just the 10 reported on erowid. For instance, NBOMes finally popped up locally were I live and a young man just died of it, this death is not on erowid. Also, you have to consider that all the NBOMe deaths are pharmacological, and happened in a span of a couple of years, (it became first available in 2010, if I recall correctly) Contrast that to LSD, which is more potent even, but still has only caused one pharmacological death in 70 years.

This is a local girl from were I live who was just in the news. She took one NBOMe blotter and didn't feel anything, then she took one more and suddently she fainted, hit her face on the tarmac and had a seizure. NSFW for size.

NSFW:

Anyway Tokkotai. It's your funeral, but don't go around giving it to other people who don't know what it is.

 

[infantannihilator]

There shouldn't be any doubt that NBOMes are vastly more dangerous than any other psychedelic that exists. Since there are so many much, much more safe alternatives, there's really no reason to risk your life with them.

Comparing NBOMes with cocaine is just wrong for so many reasons. Actually, snorted cocaine is relatively safe, as far as I am informed, and the dangers lie in addiction (which at its root is a psychosocial problem, imo) and from adulterants like levamisole.

The dangers of NBOMes come from it having the potential of of killing you with just one single dose. Yes, many deaths are probably because of overdoses, but remember, no one is infalible, you too can overdose by accident!!! And if that happens, NBOMes are not as forgiving as other psychedelics. Also, some deaths seems to not have been caused by an overdose.

Add to that, that many more deaths have occured than just the 10 reported on erowid. For instance, NBOMes finally popped up locally were I live and a young man just died of it, this death is not on erowid. Also, you have to consider that all the NBOMe deaths are pharmacological, and happened in a span of a couple of years, (it became first available in 2010, if I recall correctly) Contrast that to LSD, which is more potent even, but still has only caused one pharmacological death in 70 years.

This is a local girl from were I live who was just in the news. She took one NBOMe blotter and didn't feel anything, then she took one more and suddently she fainted, hit her face on the tarmac and had a seizure. NSFW for size.

NSFW:

Anyway Tokkotai. It's your funeral, but don't go around giving it to other people who don't know what it is.

Many more safe alternatives means nothing, the subjective experience of each and every psychedelic is different in many ways; that's the whole reason we experiment with all these different substances rather than just sticking to mushrooms. Ive tried numerous other psychedelics, classics and 'research' ones, and none equal my nbome experiences. Driving a Toyota Yaris is probably much much more safer than driving a yamaha R1, so does that mean there's no reason to risk my life on that motorcycle when the Yaris gets me from point A to B?

Cocaine and other "safe" drugs have a myriad of potential problems, the most obvious of which is an overdose.

Cocaine use can cause such respiratory effects as chest pain and respiratory failure; neurological effects, including strokes, seizure, and headaches; and gastrointestinal complications, including abdominal pain and nausea. The repeated use of cocaine has been linked to many types of heart disease. Cocaine has been found to trigger chaotic heart rhythms, called ventricular fibrillation; accelerate heartbeat and breathing; and increase blood pressure and body temperature. Physical symptoms may include chest pain, nausea, blurred vision, fever, muscle spasms, convulsions and coma.

As far as deaths on Erowid, yeah I wouldn't go by that alone either. While I truly value erowid for the resource it is, they are often several months behind, if they even post certain stories. I've submitted several trip reports that either never ended up on the website, or took several months to actually be posted. It's the nature of a short staffed website.

Fact is, this drug can be used in a safe manner by those who know what they're doing. They're not substances for willy nilly kids looking to go to the moon as soon as possible. That girl effectively doubled the standard dose of a compound that was unbeknownst to her; brilliant! Go drink twice your normal amount of alcohol, double the size of your lines, inject all the heroin, see how good a time you have? God only knows what else was in her system and the other guy's as well. That's one issue with all these supposed nbome deaths - yet, I realize, the fact remains, regardless of interactions with whatever else they were on or had in their systems, the combination of adding the nbome led to their death.

The level of danger is imo vastly blown out of proportion. That said, I wouldn't give them to anyone else either unless I really trusted them to be safe with it. It is not a toy thats for sure, but it can be used safely and responsibly, and that starts with the user.

 

[Incunabula]

I was actually talking to, Tokkotai, but nevermind

I disagree with most of what you said, and in the end, what all of us can is the the data we have, and draw a conclusion from that. So I think we can just agree to disagree, I respect your opinion because it's your life and you can risk it as you want.

I've tried 25I AND 25C and didn't find anything there that other psychedelic can't do. Actually, all psychedelics can cause mystical experiences and +4 states, and most other groups of RC's do it safer than NBOMe's. What you get out of a psychedelic is more a question of your mindstate when you go into the experience, than the compound it self.
And it's really wrong to make a question of wether NBOMes are worthwhile experince or not, it's a question of wether it is worth risking your life for or not.

God only knows what else was in her system and the other guy's as well. That's one issue with all these supposed nbome deaths - yet, I realize, the fact remains, regardless of interactions with whatever else they were on or had in their systems, the combination of adding the nbome led to their death.

When some one dies from a drug, the pathologist that carries out the autopsy always establish what drugs caused the death. Most NBOMe deaths were from that drug alone, and there is no indication that it is a question of combinations being the dangerous factor.

You should read the trip report on erowid, that I linked to. It's written by the brother of the deceased. The guy who died took 2 blotters from the same sheet that he previously had taken from 3. If it is true, he died from a smaller dose than what he had previously been fine with, or the blotter had been unevenly laid.

Fyi, that girl didn't have anything else in her system, and she was only 16 years old.

Fact is, this drug can be used in a safe manner by those who know what they're doing.

Famous last words of the haughty

Even the the most hardcore bluelight veteran can make a mistake and overdose, you too. Make a miscalculation. Pick up the wrong vial etc etc, the list goes on. All the mistakes many people already have done.

OD on a NBOMe and die. OD on LSD and survive. That's the difference.

Go drink twice your normal amount of alcohol, double the size of your lines, inject all the heroin, see how good a time you have?

The high potency of NBOMes certainly is one of their main dangers. It's very easy to double your dose. Not so with alcohol for instance (does alcohol even have a dose?)

It's completely safe doubling the dose of most available psychedelics. It's very dangerous to do with NBOMes. Not only are they very potent, they have a very steep dose/response curve.

Lines? Doubling the size of your normal cocaine or amphetamine line won't get most people into trouble. It won't be fatal anyway (except if you have an existing heart condition already. In which case you shouldn't be taking them in the first place)

Injecting heroin most certainly is a very dangerous thing to do, and many people die from it all the time.

As I've said, I think it's wrong comparing stuff like cocaine and heroin with psychedelics. Different routes of administration, different effects, different duration, different frequency of readministration, different dangers.

Cocaine and other "safe" drugs have a myriad of potential problems, the most obvious of which is an overdose.

Of cause all drugs have their dangers, and taking drugs is always a risk.

And of cause it's possible to overdose on cocaine, I never said it wasn't. You should notice I was talking about insufflated cocaine.

A lethal dose of insufflated cocaine is 1.2 gram (unless you have an existing heart condition) That's a lot of powder to get up your nose in one go, and not something you do by accident. And I guess that must be with pure cocaine, and as you probably know, most cocaine is cut to hell. (source: www.emcdda.europa.eu It also says you can die from 30 mg line if you're susceptible, but I wonder how often that happens? I never heard of any one croaking from their very first line of coke, but I guess it happens. I'm not saying it's healthy to snort coke, mind you, it isn't.

And the LD 50 of cocaine in mice is 95.1 mg/kg. You can see it compared to other drugs here
I wonder what the LD50 of 25I-NBoMe is?

 

[Tokkotai]

The level of danger is imo vastly blown out of proportion. That said, I wouldn't give them to anyone else either unless I really trusted them to be safe with it. It is not a toy thats for sure, but it can be used safely and responsibly, and that starts with the user.

That exactly is also my impression. The danger is real, but i think is hyped. It is to be respected if someone draws a line and deceides not to take any of the 25X-NBOME compounds, but for the sake of HR comments that indicate "dont take it" wont help. These drugs are around and will be. People will continue to use them. They are not as forgiving as other drugs and you wont certainly get away railing fat lines. But if respected they can at least be used "safer" (not safe!) when minding how you should treat them.

Comparing NBOMes with cocaine is just wrong for so many reasons.

You may be right, cocaine may be not be a good example, but you gave me another good example, heroin. Tons of people have died from heroin but there are always folk that make the decision to take it.

she was only 16 years old

Yes, a 16 year old girl should not take 25X-NBOMEs, maybe she should not be taking any drugs at all...

So what is your solution Faggot? (I somewhat feel weird calling you that )
"Just Say No!" is not the right approach for drug (ab)use, neither is prohibition.

Anyway im still thinking if preparing the nasal solution is a good approach. I think the knowledge of the danger can have a heavy influence on the course of the trip.

Thinking about this topic got me questioning why the 25X-NBOME substances are still around. I remember the 5-IT associated deaths, the compound disappeared within months, NBOMEs have not disappeared.

 

[Incunabula]

That exactly is also my impression. The danger is real, but i think is hyped. It is to be respected if someone draws a line and deceides not to take any of the 25X-NBOME compounds, but for the sake of HR comments that indicate "dont take it" wont help. These drugs are around and will be. People will continue to use them. They are not as forgiving as other drugs and you wont certainly get away railing fat lines. But if respected they can at least be used "safer" (not safe!) when minding how you should treat them.

I mostly agree, and you do have a good point that some people are going to keep on taking them no matter what. But I don't see why "don't take it" shouldn't help though. If someone can be disuaded from taking them then that's good imo. At least, if someone is going to take them they should have all the facts, for instance that at least one 25B death seems to not have been from an overdose.
You are vey right, that telling people to not take them must not prevent people from getting good, regular harm reduction advice about how to use them safely.

You may be right, cocaine may be not be a good example, but you gave me another good example, heroin. Tons of people have died from heroin but there are always folk that make the decision to take it.

I understand what you are trying to say, but it's still not the same. People that inject heroin are mostly self-descructive imo. And people that keep on shooting, and not just try it once, have social and psychological problems. Nobody who has a good and satisfying life is going to waste it on shooting heroin, that's how I see it anyway.

Add to that, there are no alternatives to injected heroin. As I understand it, it is the ultimate rush. It's not so with NBOMe's, because there's loads of safe alternatives. I actually think most people that use NBOMe's do it because of availability and price. And not because they're better than tryptamines or lysergamides.

So what is your solution Faggot? (I somewhat feel weird calling you that )
"Just Say No!" is not the right approach for drug (ab)use, neither is prohibition.

I agree that prohibition is completely pointless, but when a community like Bluelight warns against something, as opposed to when the authorities do it, I believe it can be helpfull.
The name is Fagott, by the way, not Faggot

Thinking about this topic got me questioning why the 25X-NBOME substances are still around. I remember the 5-IT associated deaths, the compound disappeared within months, NBOMEs have not disappeared.

I think it's because 5-IT is even more dangerous.

 

[Lovermane808]

I guess my point is, intranasal Nbome has caused more deaths than LSD, and sublingual Nbome has caused less reported deaths than intranasal. Obviously my own personal experience of death via unreliable intranasal dosing vs oral makes me bias. But why not just use your well-informed calculations to lay some blotter instead of the nasal spray, and statistically reduce the likelihood of you or your friends having an error in dosage. You could even pick out some really cool art to put on it.

When it comes down to it, no matter how accurately you measure out the doses, there will always be some unreliability with how much force the user applies to the nasal spray device.