Magick Ritual and Butterfly Effect Consequences

[Magickduck]

Ok, so lets say someone practices chaos magick, magick, withcraft, urban shamanism, ritual, certain types of meditation, in order to change reality in conformity with their will.

now lets say this is real, and have seen it work.

What do you guys think of the possible butterfly effect consequences?

For example, simple ritual one may do, in a hidden quote box in case anybody does not want to read about this type of ritual:

NSFW:

So, person has complete faith in the ritual they are about to do. Someone gets a piece of paper. On it they write, "Tomorrow I will meet a woman named Jenny, and we will talk about shoes". Completely innocent right? Then they put a candle on top of the paper, and light it with while speaking the intention. They let the candle burn out, and when the wax is still liquid, they pour it in a glass cup. They let the wax dry completely so it doesn't get in their water. They pour water in the cup, and drink the water.

The next day, as they had planned, they meet a woman named Jenny. They talk about shoes. That is all. Over with.

Seems innocent right, what harm could come from altaring reality in such a simple way?

Well, lets say that day when Jenny discussed shoes with the person, she was supposed to meet her future lover. They were going to have kids together, and their child was going to cure all forms of cancer.

Now besides just that, even if we only effect ourselves and our path, we are part of that divine plan too, so we indirectly hurt (or help - i suppose its just as likely the effects could be positive) others as well.

Chaos magick relys on the belief that all things are chaos and random events happening with no particular unfolding - and that they can manipulate that chaos. But to me its more of an organized unfolding, the divine plan...

Is it our place to be altering things like this? Do we know whats best for ourselves, others, or the world?

Personally, I do not do rituals anymore, save for emergency or healing of very hurt souls. I have spoken it over with God and we both think its best to take a break from that kinda stuff - if not forever.

Or am I completely off here - what do you think?

 

[What 23]

Is it our place to be altering things like this? Do we know whats best for ourselves, others, or the world?

This may be dangerous thought unto itself, but if it wasn't our place, it would have never happened; If it wasn't our place, we would have never found ourselves there in that place. Like if it wasn't our place to "play god", creating life, bringing back the dead/dead species if we want, cloning, genetic manipulation, Etc., we wouldn't be gifted with this ability.

You mention we are all one functioning organism (Lucifer's Fall thread), of sorts (and a "machine", and computer, I would say, for everything contained within is an expression/manifestion of the greater whole), in another thread. Would this not also mean that we, like "God", are expressed as at times, though aren't necessarily dual-existers? Not sure how to say that the best way... But I think you know what I mean... That would this not also mean that we are not "like God"? That we were made in his image, and perhaps it is simply our place to know ourselves. We, by nature, sin. And we screw up... A lot. The very process that led us to exist, according to science, is wrought with "failure". By some ways of looking at it, a star "failed"/died, it went supernova to create that which allows our blood to carry oxygen, one of the main sources of energy for our bodies. Some say that an asteroid or comet brought life to the planet. True or untrue, something fucked up/got fucked up (haha), which led to us...

So, is it our place? Sure... But we need to be humble, and realize that the process might just be another planetoid smacking another planetoid down the line, and we might be one of those planetoids. So we must not be so arrogant, but we also, must not underestimate the many places we could end up For better or for worse. And... I guess, it's also a lesson in acceptance. Letting go. Perhaps. Sometimes hitting a cat on the road might bring a tear or two to my eye. Sometimes, it just happened, and I can't do anything about it.

Where it gets possibly dangerous, I guess (I apologize if I am rambling away here), is that we might use this to justify anything. I killed you. It happened. That's the way it was supposed to be, because it happened. There's nothing I can do about now. I went crazy. I blew up a state full of millions of souls. Big deal. Not a big deal.

The key is our hearts, and our intentions, and our ability to be conscious about things, and try to do the right thing.

But in all, we may as well be the butterfly effect consequences, as well. Our decision was made with God, with whom, we have faith.


But your example, which I just read, is interesting. I would say, that such rituals, I guess, in "Chaos", should maybe, as you have put, be left somewhere else. This is what I kind of was going for, without reading first (didn't mean not to, was going to go back before replying but went on), about humility. I tend to observe. I wait my turn. I try to. I never liked to eat before everyone else had gotten their turn/their plates full. If it meant me not eating... There's plenty of food, elsewhere, and perhaps, in different forms. If that was what was to be, that was what was to be, and I'll get my fill when I get my fill. Or, I'll become empty.

Still, I imagine you know this, but these rituals are kind of what occurs anyways, in life anyways, through our thoughts and processes, however the rituals you speak of are on a more direct(ed) and conscious level (please feel free to build on this if you want). But I guess, if you aren't willing to get burnt... ....But it could happen anyways. God. I don't know.


I guess, repeating lessons in humility, is that no matter how big of things we can effect change in, we are so little... And conversely, but the same, though we are little, we can effect big change. This is leads to, to that we should be humble. That we should always try to be responsible.

Perhaps your conversation with God was right, and that, to pick a side, no, it's not our place to do such rituals.
But I wouldn't go so far as to say we shouldn't, for instance, pray... Which is, itself, some kind of ritual. Or, eat breakfast in the morning, or dinner at night, or sleep, or hold the door open for the next person. So I wouldn't say all "rituals" are "bad", or... as dangerous- would be a better word.

I like the saying, "Thy will be done". It is freeing of my burden.

 

[Morphling]

Well, if your work turns out badly, very simply, you pull up the big witch panties and get to work fixing it.

I'm more of the thought that if you actually have talent, it shouldn't be wasted, but I can't see how this can end in anything but a circular argument or simple speculation Question: Unanswerable.

 

[Foreigner]

I believe that at our very core of cores, we are good beings. Anything that you send out that is not for the highest good will come back at you in a myriad of ways to teach you lessons about yourself through consequences. Sometimes people who try to do bad juju on others are doing so because there is a challenge or block in themseves they haven't worked through, and so the working will come back at them as an external manifestation of the challenges they need to work on, by putting it all around them.

People who practice magic (I never add the -k, since "magic" in the sense we are talking about has been the word for centuries) in order to control the world around them tend to only end up manifesting those intentions for themselves. For instance, if you practice chaos magic, then your own world will probably have chaos in it; and that's not necesarily wrong, if chaos is something you relish.

So-called "bad" experiences are often the result of resistance. If you have the purity of spirit (i.e. have dealt with your baggage) and you move in timing with Divine will, then there is no real need to control anything, because every action contains "rightness" and inherent virtue, even if it's suffering or death. The ultimate magic is in Divine timing. Ego thinks it actually has input into where things flow, but choices don't ultimately come from it.

People who try to control through magic are people who are actually out of of control, and karma has their address. They are projecting outwardly the work that they need to do, and it will definitely come back to them... but even that relective reflex in the universe is for the highest good, and people can change for the better.

If you study the torus field in quantum dynamics, you can understand this principle better.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Is it our place to be altering things like this? Do we know whats best for ourselves, others, or the world?

Call me boring, but I'm a determinist. So even assuming magick isn't a bunch of malarkey, it has to be that way and you can't change anything. Of course we live with the illusion of free will, but even then in your scenario it's the same as if you decided to walk up to some random woman on the street and talk about shoes. There's no way to know what the consequences would have been if you didn't do it.

I think you should just consider the likely consequences of your actions and have a positive intent.

 

[Magickduck]

I believe that at our very core of cores, we are good beings. Anything that you send out that is not for the highest good will come back at you in a myriad of ways to teach you lessons about yourself through consequences. Sometimes people who try to do bad juju on others are doing so because there is a challenge or block in themseves they haven't worked through, and so the working will come back at them as an external manifestation of the challenges they need to work on, by putting it all around them.

People who practice magic (I never add the -k, since "magic" in the sense we are talking about has been the word for centuries) in order to control the world around them tend to only end up manifesting those intentions for themselves. For instance, if you practice chaos magic, then your own world will probably have chaos in it; and that's not necesarily wrong, if chaos is something you relish.

So-called "bad" experiences are often the result of resistance. If you have the purity of spirit (i.e. have dealt with your baggage) and you move in timing with Divine will, then there is no real need to control anything, because every action contains "rightness" and inherent virtue, even if it's suffering or death. The ultimate magic is in Divine timing. Ego thinks it actually has input into where things flow, but choices don't ultimately come from it.

People who try to control through magic are people who are actually out of of control, and karma has their address. They are projecting outwardly the work that they need to do, and it will definitely come back to them... but even that relective reflex in the universe is for the highest good, and people can change for the better.

If you study the torus field in quantum dynamics, you can understand this principle better.

I understand what you are saying and I agree - though my experiances in magick were all with positive intent - it definitly scared the crap out of me and I am a better person for it and now go with the divine flow that already is, so yes, I agree.

Save for healing or emergency, I think its best to leave things as they are.

 

[dragonix]

Always hard to talk about Butterfly Effect outcomes for a myriad of multifaceted reasons

 

[ovenbakedskittles]

Ok, so lets say someone practices chaos magick, magick, withcraft, urban shamanism, ritual, certain types of meditation, in order to change reality in conformity with their will.

now lets say this is real, and have seen it work.

What do you guys think of the possible butterfly effect consequences?

For example, simple ritual one may do, in a hidden quote box in case anybody does not want to read about this type of ritual:

NSFW:

So, person has complete faith in the ritual they are about to do. Someone gets a piece of paper. On it they write, "Tomorrow I will meet a woman named Jenny, and we will talk about shoes". Completely innocent right? Then they put a candle on top of the paper, and light it with while speaking the intention. They let the candle burn out, and when the wax is still liquid, they pour it in a glass cup. They let the wax dry completely so it doesn't get in their water. They pour water in the cup, and drink the water.

The next day, as they had planned, they meet a woman named Jenny. They talk about shoes. That is all. Over with.

Seems innocent right, what harm could come from altaring reality in such a simple way?

Well, lets say that day when Jenny discussed shoes with the person, she was supposed to meet her future lover. They were going to have kids together, and their child was going to cure all forms of cancer.

Now besides just that, even if we only effect ourselves and our path, we are part of that divine plan too, so we indirectly hurt (or help - i suppose its just as likely the effects could be positive) others as well.

Chaos magick relys on the belief that all things are chaos and random events happening with no particular unfolding - and that they can manipulate that chaos. But to me its more of an organized unfolding, the divine plan...

Is it our place to be altering things like this? Do we know whats best for ourselves, others, or the world?

Personally, I do not do rituals anymore, save for emergency or healing of very hurt souls. I have spoken it over with God and we both think its best to take a break from that kinda stuff - if not forever.

Or am I completely off here - what do you think?

You cannot expect to have a pleasant experience with practices that have been around for thousands of years while at the same time living in 21st century society where everything and everybody is ignorant to the subtleties and nuances of spiritual life and lives in ways that is directly opposite from the origins of these ancient practices.

I don’t know you and don’t know where you from but based on your experience and reaction to your experience it is most likely that you are imbedded in that particular social consciousness and that you are not a spiritual guru living in isolation who might have some type of better understanding of the nature of our reality and the nature of consciousness and tapping into the divine realms of reality.

With that being said it is important to be aware of the fragmentation within yourself and your own consciousness and to not just assume that you automatically have full control over your thoughts and intentions. You may think at times that you are purely focusing positively and intend to use these practices in positive ways but if you have trauma and resistance within you it can cause many problems that contradict what you want to manifest. It can also attract, and in many cases it does, many forces that are considered demonic. Thus it causes suspicion and condemnation among religious fundamentalists because they do not understand that our world is one and our thought is one with gods thought. Therefore if you are internally and emotionally and spiritually out of alignment then your reality will reflect that and you will attract people places things and experiences that are also out of alignment however once you involve rituals and witchcraft you open up your unconscious vulnerabilities and troubles to wider variety of entities and energies and spiritual planes of existence that are beyond our perception.

However it is also very important to mention that everybody in the world unconsciously creates their reality even if they are not into any type of magic or spiritual practices. Even a baby is its own creator. So it is not necessary to even ask if it is our place to do such things. It is happening at all times no matter what. But you can have a lot of bottled up thoughts and emotions caused from childhood trauma that can make it very difficult to have a pleasant easygoing experience with minimal consequences. This process can cause you to be unconscious of a huge portion of the thoughts and feelings that you are experiencing on a daily basis. We all have this problem. At least anyone who lives under the influence of western society. I cannot really speak for all cultures and people of earth literally but I think it’s safe to say that the majority of people who participate in social life under the influence of western civilization is guaranteed to have deep traumatic issues and emotional disturbances. How many people do you know that have some sort of mental illness?? The fact that so many of us are sick is because of what I just explained. That is probably better for another thread but it is something that I think is really important to be aware of when dealing with any sort of activities or decisions or trying to figure out why things didn’t go the way you planned them to go. It is usually because of that very phenomenon it is the source of all social and mental dilemmas in modern day society.

And so that is why people attract demons and evil aliens to their consciousness while fundamentalist Christians think that we have to wage a war against these entities it is really our own lack of awareness and fear and insecurity and traumatic experiences that are the problem.

Also I do not buy into the notion that you can potentially miss the opportunity to meet your soulmate and perfect family just by a result of you doing witchcraft and ending up in a different place at a different time or manifesting that place and time or whatever. That is only from the worldly secular view of looking at everything through probability lens. Or if you subscribe to that idea of “chaos” which you just explained regarding the basis of this particular practice then it would make sense that that would be a scenario that you might be concerned about but I personally do not think that’s how life works at all.

If you believe the notion that you create your own reality through your thoughts then you should be able to see that you choose when you get to meet your lover and where and you also get to choose who your lover is gonna be before coming into this life. It can most likely be arranged so that no matter what you do you will still somehow meet the person you originally chose to be your life partner or someone really important in your life. Things are not as random as people think. Our tendency to see things as random is just a result of our lack of awareness towards our higher mind that is like a god and can see the overall terrain of your physical experience in a way that you cannot even imagine. You don’t know how easy it is for them to just simply create an experience that causes you to meet your future husband the next day or the day after or 6 or 7 years from now. You would be able to do all things you can do with magic if you just become aware of this fundamental aspect of yourself that is much more alive and much more aware of what is going on in your life and in the universez and has much more wisdom that you can use in your everyday experience.

So on one hand you can see that in our present state of consciousness it is best not to indulge in such things. Not because they’re inherently evil like the Christians say but because on the other hand we just have not realized ourselves yet and we are not fully aware of everything we are doing or everything we are manifesting and creating. So the solution is to work towards that higher understanding and build up your awareness and confidence so that you can eventually get to a place where magic isn’t even necessary.

 

[Foreigner]

Your question is about karma.

Not the modern western kooky version of karma that's "what goes around comes around".

But the simple law of cause and effect.

Any action taken in Samsara creates karma. So the answer to your question is: yes, there would be a butterfly effect. The precise consequences of it are impossible to know. You throw a small pebble into a pond and its ripples are small. You throw a large one and the ripples are huge. How many things are you coming into contact with in your day to day life? What things are your rituals asking for or trying to do? A person who lights a firework vs. someone who sets off a nuclear bomb are going to have different karmic effects.

How it affects you personally is also hard to gauge. How do you react to your own ritual? There are murderers in the world who have zero guilt about killing, while another person who kills someone may be psychologically ruined forever. Aside from the outward karma, the inward karma is hard to know.

The immediate karma might be obvious but the more long term karma is hard to qualify because the human mind-body is a tiny slice of Divine consciousness and can only see the world in a limited fashion. Ultimately it's all God's karma, and you're just a momentary form within God doing this for some reason. But in a temporal sense, you are an individual with some degree of free will and your existence has a butterfly effect.

I would argue that control is an illusion though.

 

[telepathetic]

Ok, so lets say someone practices chaos magick, magick, withcraft, urban shamanism, ritual, certain types of meditation, in order to change reality in conformity with their will.

now lets say this is real, and have seen it work.

What do you guys think of the possible butterfly effect consequences?

For example, simple ritual one may do, in a hidden quote box in case anybody does not want to read about this type of ritual:

NSFW:

So, person has complete faith in the ritual they are about to do. Someone gets a piece of paper. On it they write, "Tomorrow I will meet a woman named Jenny, and we will talk about shoes". Completely innocent right? Then they put a candle on top of the paper, and light it with while speaking the intention. They let the candle burn out, and when the wax is still liquid, they pour it in a glass cup. They let the wax dry completely so it doesn't get in their water. They pour water in the cup, and drink the water.

The next day, as they had planned, they meet a woman named Jenny. They talk about shoes. That is all. Over with.

Seems innocent right, what harm could come from altaring reality in such a simple way?

Well, lets say that day when Jenny discussed shoes with the person, she was supposed to meet her future lover. They were going to have kids together, and their child was going to cure all forms of cancer.

Now besides just that, even if we only effect ourselves and our path, we are part of that divine plan too, so we indirectly hurt (or help - i suppose its just as likely the effects could be positive) others as well.

Chaos magick relys on the belief that all things are chaos and random events happening with no particular unfolding - and that they can manipulate that chaos. But to me its more of an organized unfolding, the divine plan...

Is it our place to be altering things like this? Do we know whats best for ourselves, others, or the world?

Personally, I do not do rituals anymore, save for emergency or healing of very hurt souls. I have spoken it over with God and we both think its best to take a break from that kinda stuff - if not forever.

Or am I completely off here - what do you think?

What the hell? I wrote this..

 

[telepathetic]

Magickduck? Wtf? How high was I or did someone steal this?

 

[telepathetic]

I'd like to confirm that one must be very careful even with the best intentions. I wouldn't dare to do any serious magick ritual more than once a year or less other than maybe daily affirmations/ceremony.

I'd also argue control is an illusion.

I mostly follow the psychological model of magick, but it is also the engineering of synchronicity.