LSD and ego death

[Kl519]

Okay, I wanna jump into this pool party now.

That's why I think it is imperative that a person must reach a "vegetative" state to reach "ego loss" (sorry, kind of personal). Death is simply the mind and body completely shutting down, (yeah, the twitching, but you know what I mean). Except, the mind isn't shut off at all, it's actually extremely stimulated/going haywire.

It is like going into a trance-like state, except it should be next to impossible to snap out of it. But I do agree that even during these states, I'd be aware of a burglar in Ismene's example, except I wouldn't be able to physically get up and do something about it...probably wouldn't be able to at least flip him off either. So, how can one reach that state, yet be aware of themselves and what's going on around them, AND lose the sense of self like I positively without a doubt knew that that happened?

Yesno.

 

[Ismene]

On the contrary feeling like you are dying whilst tripping is precisely what ego death is, that is why it is called "ego death"

Nah max - that's not an ego death, that's just panic because you've taken a drug at a dose you can't handle.

This ^ is exactly what ego death is feeling like you are dying during a trip.

Not for me it isn't - I felt like I was dying once when I was vomiting and shitting out of both ends simultaneously. That wasn't an ego-death that was just taking too much acid.

Ego is programmed to hang on to its grip on existence at all costs

I don't think the ego exists in the first place but if it does then you can lose track of who you are by simply jacking off and shooting your muck.

which is precisely what characterises the 'bad trip' experience

My bad trips have all been based on problems with my gastrointestinal tract - specifically vomiting. Nothing more esoteric than that.

 

[Ismene]

except I wouldn't be able to physically get up and do something about it...probably wouldn't be able to at least flip him off either.

I think I'd flip him off shortly before launching myself at him with a baseball bat with a nail in the end Kl

I've never been so high on acid I couldn't move - in fact I like getting up and dancing on LSD. Perhaps K would keep you pinned to the couch while the burglar counted out the contents of your wallet.

Hell, it sounds like if the burglar asked max what the pin code to his debit card was he'd blurt it out

 

[max_freakout]

To understand ego death it is helpful to read people's descriptions of their ego death experiences, there are many such descriptions in erowid's collection of trip reports, such as the following typical examples:

From a Salvia Divinorum trip report - "I realized that I was me, or that I had been and wasn't anymore and the first crystallized human thought came to me... I DIED. " (from here - http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=60646)

From a mushroom trip report - "What gave the convincing final touches to my 'departure' into the realms of death, was my boston terrier. He was behaving very strangely. He was whining and staring right at me the entire first half of the experience. Which confirmed the eerie feeling that my dog 'knew' I was 'dying'. This in turn formed a strong bond between me and my dog. He cuddled against me (whining)while I 'died'." (From here - http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=6409)

From an LSD trip report - " I was being welcomed into the circle. Insanity was a network. I didn’t want to be a part of but it was too late. Then I “realized” I wasn’t insane but “dead”" (from here - http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=43800)

 

[Kl519]

This is a little off topic, and I only have the utmost respect for Mr. Shulgin, but what exactly started the whole + plussing to categorize these trips? I feel like he just decided to make levels about that on a whim, and that it doesn't have nearly enough basis on objectivity.

I understand this subject itself can be seen as entirely subjective, with actually a good mix of the two, but I still cannot grasp what exactly defines +1 or a +2 in a clear cut, agreeable manner.

 

[Ismene]

You can't trip reports at face value max. I mean, every teenager who'se taken 100 mics says he died to make his trip report sound dramatic and stand out from the rest. Everyone exaggerates trip reports don't they. Even Howard Marks says he took acid and looked at a record cover and saw the cover come to life and the band start dancing on top of it. Pure bollocks of course.

 

[max_freakout]

panic because you've taken a drug

Panic and adrenaline release is a common feature of ego death, for exactly the same reason that a person would panic if a hungry lion suddenly entered the room, - because of the basic survival instinct to preserve ones own life at all costs.

When you feel that your life is imminently threatened you experience mortal fear and panic. This is the body's way of protecting you from life-threatening situations, by pumping you full of adrenaline and making you leap into action to protect yourself.

However panic is not the centrally defining feature of ego death, what centrally characterises and defines ego death is simply the feeling of dying (i.e. one’s ego dying) whilst in the intense altered state. That is why the experience is labelled “ego death” and not “panic trip”.

I don't think the ego exists in the first place

Ego is the central defining feature of ordinary (ie sober) conscious experience, all of our daily experiences take the form of "being a person in a world" and that is ego. Ego is the belief that "I am a person".

But psychedelic tripping raises the personal perspective above ordinary experience and from that elevated point of view, ego is seen as unreal, merely an artificial projected mental construct.

This is why people experience ego death, because when you look at ego from the elevated hyper-real psychedelic perspective and see the inherent unreality of the ego construct, this is felt as a "death" because the mind had up to that point fully identified itself with the ego construct, so it has now lost its identity i.e. died.

I felt like I was dying once when I was vomiting and shitting out of both ends simultaneously…..My bad trips have all been based on problems with my gastrointestinal tract - specifically vomiting.

ego death does not result from the physical symptoms of ingesting drugs like vomiting and shitting etc, rather it results from the mental effect of the psychedelic trip, - seeing that ego is unreal because of the trip-effect.

Similarly a bad trip isn’t about experiencing unpleasant physical side-effects of a drug, rather it is about experiencing unpleasant *psychological* effects as the primary trip-effect of the drugs

You are confusing a physically unpleasant trip with a bad trip, but they are not the same thing. The 'badness' of a bad trip derives from the mental effects, not from the physical side-effects

 

[Kl519]

I think I'd flip him off shortly before launching myself at him with a baseball bat with a nail in the end Kl

I've never been so high on acid I couldn't move - in fact I like getting up and dancing on LSD. Perhaps K would keep you pinned to the couch while the burglar counted out the contents of your wallet.

Hell, it sounds like if the burglar asked max what the pin code to his debit card was he'd blurt it out

LoL, you kinda did go too far with that one, but I'd be willing to bet Max is much more prudent and rational than to be a saint like that.

It kind of reminds me of a news story I just read about a Brinks truck that accidentally spilled money on a freeway, and people scrambled to catch it before it blew away. Then the authorities asked for them to kindly return it, yet if I was one of them, I'd have done the same and driven off just the same, even though I'd like to believe I am a kind person.

And the only connection I can make is that I would've probably lost my ego, and my life, trying to grab some money myself because banks are rich enough anyways. They "steal" enough money from all of us as it is, except they do it in a legal way.

Anyway, totally off topic. I am expecting a ban.

 

[Kl519]

To understand ego death it is helpful to read people's descriptions of their ego death experiences, there are many such descriptions in erowid's collection of trip reports, such as the following typical examples:

From a Salvia Divinorum trip report - "I realized that I was me, or that I had been and wasn't anymore and the first crystallized human thought came to me... I DIED. " (from here - http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=60646)

From a mushroom trip report - "What gave the convincing final touches to my 'departure' into the realms of death, was my boston terrier. He was behaving very strangely. He was whining and staring right at me the entire first half of the experience. Which confirmed the eerie feeling that my dog 'knew' I was 'dying'. This in turn formed a strong bond between me and my dog. He cuddled against me (whining)while I 'died'." (From here - http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=6409)

From an LSD trip report - " I was being welcomed into the circle. Insanity was a network. I didn’t want to be a part of but it was too late. Then I “realized” I wasn’t insane but “dead”" (from here - http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=43800)

I've read these three reports, but what I can gather is that the ego loss is very subjective and different from person to person. Such as in the last report, how can he be aware of all those things, yet wonder if he was alive?

What an oxymoron.

I've decided that the individuals themselves matter more than the substance itself, but the state has one thing in common: the sense of self is lost, for sure. So a ++++ state is either manic or vegetative.

 

[Kl519]

I fully realize I killed this thread, well just like in round 1. In time, I shall figure out my erroneous ways, or maybe sober me is unhappy. Being stuck at home on a Friday night with a sleeping gf who absolutely can give two shits less that I keep posting here (or even what I post) might do the trick.

Anyway, I'd move this into a more social thread but I'm afraid I'll kill that one too. Though I really enjoyed all of the responses about this topic, and even though we all did kind of beat the dead horse again, it was great to prove that I am, indeed, an ass hat in some ways.

Many thanks. Too bad dinner can't be on me. =(

 

[Vurtual]

Ismene - i think you confuse awareness and ego. You are still aware when you lose your ego on drugs, or else you'd just be unconscious. Awareness is the self; ego is the sense of self (or the separation from self)

 

[CrystalClear77]

Senses shutting off or loss perspective of senses and synesthesia is a good way to describe ego loss with lsd. In my experience. The world collapses and you do as well piece by piece. Or sense by sense. You feel it coming on. Like an oh shit I better get to my bed asap feeling haha. After hopefully you've managed to get into a safe area with lots of water beside you. Then you can really let go and not fight it. That's my comfort area for sure. Your fucking bed when your lost. It turns into your own little Island. Just moving your body after ego dissolution feels like the most epic journey you've ever had. Completely primal and you rely on those instincts during a heavy experience like that.

 

[Xorkoth]

You can't trip reports at face value max. I mean, every teenager who'se taken 100 mics says he died to make his trip report sound dramatic and stand out from the rest. Everyone exaggerates trip reports don't they. Even Howard Marks says he took acid and looked at a record cover and saw the cover come to life and the band start dancing on top of it. Pure bollocks of course.

So everyone who claims they felt like they died in trip reports is lying? It seems pretty, I don't know, intense for you to come to the conclusion that all these reports you can't relate to personally are exaggerations/lies. Really? Do you think that I exaggerated or lied in my reports of my trips where I experienced ego dissolution/death?

 

[Ismene]

Not everyone, but an awful lot of them. And what can we understand by someone using the term "death"? What does "Feeling like you have died" actually mean?

A feeling you consider to be like "death" might not be what I consider to feel like "death".

 

[Hamish Harrumph]

A feeling you consider to be like "death" might not be what I consider to feel like "death".

What does that have to do with this discussion? Ego death in regard to a psychedelic experience is a fairly well defined concept. It's not feeling a bit crap. I might say I feel like death if I have a bad cold, I'm dying if I've been working really hard for a while, etc, likewise when I ate Tramadol and Morning Glory and rolled around on the bathroom floor feeling awful only managing to get upright long enough to evacuate into the toilet bowl. None of those experiences were psychedelic ego death.
I can't work out if you're being disingenuous, just not getting it or having a laugh.

 

[max_freakout]

A feeling you consider to be like "death" might not be what I consider to feel like "death".

Ego death feels essentially the same for everyone in the crucial sense of "thinking/feeling/believing that one has died"

This is because "death" means the same thing for everyone, ie it means permanently leaving the mortal plane of existence, ceasing to be a person etc. There are many trip reports that clearly describe this phenomenon of thinking that one has died in the altered state.

 

[Toltec]

My +4 was like... The death of you as a concept

 

[Ismene]

Ego death in regard to a psychedelic experience is a fairly well defined concept..

No it isn't. Everyone who'se had an ego death claims it's something different. Some say they lose all awareness of who they are to the extent they would ignore a burglar, others say you retain awareness, others say they can't remember anything, others say they remember everything. Some claim it only happens on high doses, some claim the dose is irrelevant. The list of different versions is never-ending.

Ego death feels essentially the same for everyone in the crucial sense of "thinking/feeling/believing that one has died"

This is because "death" means the same thing for everyone, ie it means permanently leaving the mortal plane of existence, ceasing to be a person etc. There are many trip reports that clearly describe this phenomenon of thinking that one has died in the altered state.

For a start LSD and mushrooms have never killed anyone in recorded history. So whatever you feel while being on LSD it is absolutly nothing like death. If you have an extremely vivid imagination and can't handle your high then you may be able to convince yourself that you are somehow in the realm of death while tripping but that's more down to the person than the LSD. I've tripped hundreds and hundreds of times on incredibly high doses of LSD, mushrooms and oral DMT and the thought of death - in any sense whatsoever - has never crossed my mind. Not once. So how do you explain a 15 year old taking 100 mics for the first time comes up with a trip report claiming an ego death? Do you automatically believe him?

 

[jtcucla]

So I started this thread and only more questions have popped up. More curious now. So I did blackout and lose all sense and withdrew inside my psyche. Would that not be ego death. Tho it could be diff for every person I think this is one of the ways it could happen.

 

[jtcucla]

An add on to above. I did 500mcg surely this might be enough for ego death