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Lost the Magic so quickly by being Stupid :(

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lost magic

Greenlighter
Joined
Jun 8, 2016
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5
Hi,

I wanted to share an experience and maybe get some advice or other perspectives on our current situation.

My wife and I recently started to experiment with MDMA. I am 37 and have dabbled a bit when I was younger, 20 years ago, my wife has never tried.

We tried some MDMA crystals, I bought a reagent kit and and some scales to measure accurate doses, but what I didnt read up on was the pattern of taking it and now we find ourselves in a position where things have gone wrong.

The first time we tried was about 3 months ago, we both took around 120mg, redosing once or twice a few hours later, we had an amazing time, it felt really strong and apart from being a little overwhelmed by the come up we enjoyed it a lot. The setting was at home, listening to some music, I DJ and we were enjoying the music and the lights from my speaker, we also found it made us very romantic and we spent most of the time in bed. We had no comedown really and slept fine after a good few hours and loved it so much we wanted to do it again.

So we did, the next day...

The experience was pretty much the same and we thought we had found the perfect drug!

That was a Saturday and Sunday.

The following thursday we decided yet again (Stupid now I know) to do it again and it didnt work, the high was dirty and not euphoric at all, we were very hot and tired and didnt enjoy it. Thats when we started to read up on tolerance. We quickly realised that this is not something to do daily, weekly or anywhere near that often so we put it away and took a break. We managed to last 2 weeks and then we did it again and it worked perfectly, actually better than before, although we had moved the dose up to 150 for her and 200 for me.

We then proceeded to do this every week / fortnight for around 8 weeks, so a total of about 5 more times. So perhaps 8-9 times in total.

Each time was progressively less intense, the euphoria was getting less and less, the duration less and less, the amount we were taking was increasing and the comedowns worse each time.

The last time we did it was after a 17 day break and it actually was pretty unpleasant, it started OK, but quickly felt tired and dirty and the comedown was horrible.

We know that the way we have been taking it is abuse, the last couple times we got through 1.25 grams between us spilt .5 and .75 her and me. I even started doing lines of it to try and get a quicker hit.

We didnt set out to abuse it but we just wanted that first time feeling back.

Having read many many posts now from others we realise just how wrong we got it and we plan to take a long break.

The question is how long, we know it has to be months, 3 / 6 / 12?? We dont want to run the risk of having another bad experience or worse ruining it forever. We are hoping that fact that we haven't done it even ten times will go in our favour but who knows, we've taken a lot.

The other thing Im looking into is a daily plan of other things to try and repair the damage, daily multi vitamin, 5HTP?, DXM in sub active doses? Nootropil (we did try Nootropil on around week 5 and had some mixed results although its highly possible it could have been placebo or any other number of variable factors.

We have certainly learned our lesson the hard way and will respect it from now on, just hoping its not too late :(
 
At least 6 months, but the longer the better. If you still don't have desired effects after the break, then double the time off and try again after that. You should stay off drugs with a cross tolerance to MDMA as well during your break.

Remeber to keep a minimum of 1-3 months break between every roll after that, but again the longer the better.

Eat healthy, get enough sleep, exercise regularly and enjoy life :)
 
Hi luxray, I'm thinking 6 months is a good start too. In terms of other drugs we don't do anything else, don't drink or smoke weed or anything. I am on a bupe scrip for a codeine addiction but it's very low now and not using codeine at all, and on the day of rolling I save that days bupe for post roll. I did wonder whether having that in my system blunted the high, I certainly know that when I take it at the end of a mdma night it gets me off to sleep really well. In six months I should be off that so could have a difference too.

What do you reckon about supplements during the time, 5htp, piracetam vitamins etc?

The other weird thing is that the last time we did it my wife got vivid hallucinations. Sometimes in the past when coming up we have seen some brightening of colour and a kind of sparkling effect but only breifly, this time though she was seeing very vivid things, faces in things, insects, nests, plants / trees, words scrolling across. She seemed agitated by it, she knew nothing was there really but said it was interesting but unpleasant too, a little sinister.

The dose was no more than usual and actually a little less. And was same batch if crystal as always and I didn't see a thing whilst she did!
 
There is no "magic number"

Some people have a serotonergic system that is so resilient and or different that normal they can take mdma EVERY WEEK AND NEVER LOSE THE MAGIC.

Many people with Autism Spectrum Disorder (30-40 percent )have very high levels of serotonin in their blood -- and a very high functioning SERT transporter (encoded by a mutated gene -- this is a scientific FACT). The mutated SERT pulls serotonin off the synapse too quickly -- leading to the depression, OCD, rumination, and lack of social ability seen in ASD.

Their SERT may be unaffected by the normal binding changes seen in long term users of MDMA, due to the different conformation of the encoded protein.

That said, serotonin depletion is not your problem. You could drop 150mg MDMA 6 days in a row and on day 6 your pupils won't dilate (Shulgin reports this in Pihkal I believe)-- yet you can drop MDA on day 7 and "roll balls".

If your serotonin was depleted -- that couldn't happen.

What does happen is that the serotonin receptor complex locations (yes there are lots of little nooks and crannies and sub-receptor sites on the serotonin receptor complex that lots of cool drugs like 2-CB and 2-CT-2 that act on serotonin fit into-- but not the same nook or cranny that MDMA affects) affected by MDMA are downregulated (become less sensitive).

Of note is that ASD persons have hypersensitive serotonin receptors, because their hyperactive SERT keeps pulling the serotonin off (they are starving).


Now -- my neuro-chemistry and neuro-physiological based how to fix it.

1. Upregulate your receptors -- by starving them of serotonin -- HOW -- a tryptophan deficient diet "Furthermore, 3-week CTD (chronic tryptophan depletion) did not significantly alter 5-HT1A binding but significantly increased cortical 5-HT2A binding without affecting striatal or hippocampal levels."3 weeks

yes just 3 weeks.

guess what receptor site is responsible for all the cool visuals and colors - yup 5HT2A

2. Try to reset serotonin system overall using bacopa monnieri

3. Consume significant doses of Vitamin C and/or alpha lipoic acid before, during, and after . Co-administration of alphalipoic acid and/or Vitamin C -- completely eliminated ALL evidence of serotonergic toxicity in animals administered MDMA.


Nobody can tell you when your serotonin system will get back to normal. People who throw out "6 months" or only roll every 3 months honestly are pulling it out of their A $ $.

of interest is this

"Tolerance studies also support differences in mechanisms of action. In one study, MDMA was consumed at 9:00 AM each day for almost a week (120 milligrams the first day and 160 milligrams each subsequent day) and by the fifth day there were no effects from the drug except for some mydriasis. And even this appeared to be lost on the sixth day. At this point of total tolerance, there was consumed (on day #7, at 9:00 AM) 120 milligrams of MDA and the response to it was substantially normal with proper chronology, teeth clench, and at most only a slight decrease in mental change. A complete holiday from any drug for another 6 days led to the reversal of this tolerance, in that 120 milligrams of MDMA had substantially the full expected effects. The fact that MDMA and MDA are not cross-tolerant strengthens the argument that they act in different ways, and at different sites in the brain. "

- Alexander Shulgin PIHKAL entry #109


SO abstinence of only 6 days led to reversal of the tolerance from rolling on chemically PURE mdma OF 120-160 MG every day for a week straight
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Shugenja

That was a really interesting read, and also a quick google showed that these products are all available on the High Street. I think we are almost certainly going to try this. Work and social life commitments rule out any use for a month at least anyway so that seems a good amount of time to try this as an experiment.

I am interested to understand the quote from Shulgin. I accept in its entirety that taking for six days straight would mean that the affects reduce to zero, that makes sense.

What he says then about a six day break, I am unsure if he is saying that a six day break was responsible for restoring virtually all of the high, or whether the fact they took MDA on the sixth day is significant in this.

Like Shulgn we did note that in after Week 1 where we dosed 3 times, two weeks later we did get a full reduction of tolerance, which would be consistent with his findings. However, thats where his study ended. I would imagine that had his studies continued with his subjects taking weekly doses followed by a six day break, they would have eventually seen a loss of effect.

We effectively did this ourselves, weekly, with 6 day breaks, for 5 or so weeks and the tolerance did slowly build.

Interesting stuff...
 
Thanks Luxray, this experiment above predates the quote you posted so its possible i guess that initially they underestimated the effects of tolerance, its really sad that mrs Shulgin can no longer get an effect from it, this is exactly what I fear.

The reduction of Tryptophan does make sense, I know that this isn't a serotonin problem, its down regulation of the receptors, and it makes sense that taking 5HTP will just potentially make the situation worse by keeping an artificially high level of serotonin production, starving them for a while may just stimulate them to work again, however I dont know how thats going to feel, I suspect you risk the possibility of depression in doing so.
 
luxray said:
The Shulgin's about tolerance:

"The only thing that has happened with everyone I know who has used MDMA a great deal is that if they used it more than 4 times a year, they developed a tolerance, and after a few years, it begins to not work for them.

I found out, for myself, that using MDMA more often than four times a year was not wise."
https://www.erowid.org/culture/characters/shulgin_alexander/shulgin_alexander_interview2.shtml
Click to expand...


That was Ann.

As far as keeping the magic -- perhaps for some people it goes away.

For many others it does not.

Many people talk about suicide Mon/Tues -- yet they don't talk about the small but significant percentage of users that report an afterglow that lasts for up to 2 weeks


Novelty is also a determinant -- stimulation (mental/physical) on the come up, and during waves has long been known to elicit much stronger response.

Just like there are people who can take 1-2 mg Xanax for months and quit like it was nothing -- and others have horrible withdrawal from 5 mg Valium taken for a month
 
lost magic said:
Thanks Luxray, this experiment above predates the quote you posted so its possible i guess that initially they underestimated the effects of tolerance, its really sad that mrs Shulgin can no longer get an effect from it, this is exactly what I fear.

The reduction of Tryptophan does make sense, I know that this isn't a serotonin problem, its down regulation of the receptors, and it makes sense that taking 5HTP will just potentially make the situation worse by keeping an artificially high level of serotonin production, starving them for a while may just stimulate them to work again, however I dont know how thats going to feel, I suspect you risk the possibility of depression in doing so.
Click to expand...

"and for many years now, I have been totally unable to use it. " notice she did not say -- I have used it to no effect


-- so she doesn't know if it will work or not -- because she admits to not using it at all for years.

 
If anyone tries to use some kind of scientific reasoning to show 'this is how long you need to break from MDMA', be aware that it is purely speculation.

We don't know how long is perfect because the research hasn't been done. We don't know the exact mechanism by which MDMA tolerance and 'magic loss' works, however it appears to be a lot more complex than simply serotonin depletion.

What we do know is that the longer the better and most with experience agree than more than 3-4 times a year is unwise. My personal recommendation would be once per year.

Essentially the longer you take off, the better it will be when you decide to take it again. After that, the same applies, a longer break / less frequent use will mean less loss of effects. Be careful because MDMA tolerance can become permanent for some. It can also have some nasty side effects for some too.
 
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