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Opioids Loperamide (Imodium) Megathread v. 2

Friend, 30g/day really isn't that horrible in the scheme of disgustingly large habits. Not necessarily the most responsible thing in the world, but not too horribly irresponsible in the grand scheme of things either. For example, I was taking 60-80g/day once upon a time. 30g/day is still a lot, absolutely. And the withdrawal from it - with or without comfort meds - must have be absolutely shit. But even with my 60g+/day habit, I can still think of more irresponsible things.

Just trying to explain that there is nothing to feel ashamed about with the size of your prior kratom habit. Seeing it as less than responsible use is a healthy, mature perspective, but there isn't any reason to feel ashamed of yourself for it either. People have done far dumber things. Namely, people such as myself 8) ;)

That's really cool you were able to get relief from what could still be considered theraputic/recommended dosages of loperamide! The super high dosing loperamide (HDL) can be a godsend with kicking other horrible habits, but the side effects and dangers from HDL use are also infinitely greater.

HDL is really risky, whereas what you did was quite responsible. Kudos! :)
 
I really appreciate you saying that! Nobody that I know even remotely knows what kratom is so I’m fairly alone in that respect and beat myself up over my usage. It’s nice to know there isn’t judgment here! I always think I’ll taper to make life easier but never quite have the willpower to do that. I read this whole Lope thread before going that route as a withdrawal tool and was wary of the dangers.

Was withdrawal off 50-60 g horrendous? Do you still use kratom at all now?
 
Loperamide is complicated because it stays in your system and effects you for roughly 48 hours, but the first dose can have no effect for 12-24 hours. And predicting the timing can be impossible. So overdosing when taking high doses for opiate withdrawl is a constant threat. I have been trying to come up with a simple way of predicting how much is enough to combat my withdrawal symptoms without risking under-dosing and suffering for the 12-24 hours.

So far I have failed miserably.
 
Oxygal, regarding the willpower comment, try not to beat yourself up about that either. Willpower is a leaned skill, or at least learning to harness it for your wellbeing is.

It always requires some kind of help to learn this sort of thing, so just because you haven't figured it all out yet isn't any wrong with you. It may be on you to find people who you can respect as role models (and who are capable of supporting your development in recovery/life), but that'll happen just as long as you keep trying.

Plus, what...

Who cares about being the best when you can become great :)

Oxygal said:
I really appreciate you saying that! Nobody that I know even remotely knows what kratom is so I’m fairly alone in that respect and beat myself up over my usage. It’s nice to know there isn’t judgment here! I always think I’ll taper to make life easier but never quite have the willpower to do that. I read this whole Lope thread before going that route as a withdrawal tool and was wary of the dangers.

Was withdrawal off 50-60 g horrendous? Do you still use kratom at all now?
Click to expand...

No problem dear, that's why I love BL. The safest place I've ever encountered to have serious, frank, supportive and educational discussions about drug use/etc.

If you're curious what some other kratom habits BLers have had, and what it's been like trying to transition off kratom, check out the SL Directory. Scroll to the final section on Recovery Journals and you'll find more than one highlighting challenges posed by a kratom habit: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/811238-SL-Directory-(lots-of-amazing-info-inside)

Coming off my large kratom habit wasn't fun, but it was actually mostly just weird. The physical symptoms were really quite easy compared to conventional full agonist opioids like heroin. It was a lot more like coming off a partial agonist like buprenorphine.

Getting off that kratom habit, the worst symptoms were psychoemotional. The withdrawal was also drawn out (didn't peak until like day 5-7?) but overall the physical symptoms weren't so bad. All in all really reminded me of coming off a moderate/low dose of buprenorphine.

There was some RLS, but less serious than other kicks I've done. There was also some nasty GI issues (cramping, diarrhea), which 2-4mg of loperamide kind of helped (but the next day when the loperamide worse off the diarrhea would be almost worse than it was without loperamide at all).

That all said, the psychoemotional symptoms were really difficult compared to other kicks. Evened up using DXO (so basically DXM) on day six or seven because it was just too much to deal with, and it didn't seem like the end was anywhere near. Previous when I'd use something like DXM to come off kratom, it didn't help much at all - at least not like how helpful it is for conventional opioids.

But waiting until the kratom withdrawal had fully peaked seem to make the DXM much more effective, just as it is for detoxing from conventional opioids for me. Thank heavens for NMDA antagonists! <3

After two days of DXM/O I was basically right as rain psychologically and emotionally. The DXM left me suggestible and fragile psychologically speaking, but otherwise stable and balanced without any depression or cravings to use. Took a while for the remaining physical symptoms to subside, and to come back to baseline with the suggestibility. Then the worst was just insomnia, and I had trazadone (works pretty well for me) to get me through that.

I try not to use kratom these days. My experience with it really brought home that it's just another opioid. Certainly got its own unique set of affects, but opioids are so unhealthy for me to use to take care of my health (outside of acute pain, and even then I really dislike taking them these days).

If I'd use kratom it would be either for pain (which is manageable right now, plus I still have some tramadol for that) or to deal with mental health stuff. Kratom is a horrible substitute for medication when it comes to my experience of anxiety and post traumatic stress though, so yeah really don't like that idea.

I have definitely used kratom since coming off that big habit (namely to manage fatigue with studying, but short acting opioids are really hard for me to control, so it doesn't work well for long). With the knowledge of how to manage the withdrawal and an awareness that kratom's just another opioid, I haven't gotten into the position where I get stuck with it.

Still, I really don't like or want to use kratom. Really need to get my act together with the psychiatrist so I'm not tempted to use it for mental health issues. Sigh...
 
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I need help please. I have been on 400-480 mg of loperamide daily for 4 years now
anybody that has come off a high dose of loperamide of 400 mg a day with suboxone. please it will be much appreciated on how to start on subs. today was my third time trying to start the sub after 36 hours of not dosing with loperamide and it didn't work. an hour after I start taking 8mg of sub I start feeling the withdrawals coming furious and worst then anything, i have to take immediately 400 mg of lope or it will be impossible to survive the feeling of withdrawals from loperamide. One would rather commit suicide then go thru that.
so please again, if anybody has had any experience switching to subs from high doses of loperamide please please share. cannot take this bullshit anymore.
thank you!
 
Albgol- Suboxone is a long acting opioid that is claimed to be abuse resistant. The idea is that you replace the opioids in your body that were getting you high with a different opioid (one that you cant get high from). Best if it is long acting so you only dose once or twice a day. Then you slowly taper down off that opioid until you are using so little that you can jump off and have minimal withdrawls.
Loperamide has all of the characteristics of suboxone. I have personally used it in the exact same way that suboxone is prescribed for opiate withdrawls. It works great.
The FDA says that you cant get high from Loperamide, which is why you are able to buy 800mg OTC. You are living proof that a person can get high. They say that you cant get high from suboxone, but you can. Are you sure you wont be trading one habit for another? Another one thats much more expensive?

Why not taper off Loperamide instead of switching to Subs? (This is coming from a person who has failed at tapering off oxy about a dozen times, so I understand why) The only benefit I see of switching to subs would be that they are less available and therefore harder to abuse. Are you getting your subs prescribed or on the street? If you get your prescription filled will you NEVER think of taking a lot more to get high? If you do then you will be in my position- dependant on something that is very expensive on the street and not available otc.

Assuming Subs actually do hit your opiate receptors in the same way as lope, my guess is that you should overlap your subs and lope use for a few days. - I would say 24 hours at 400 mg lope plus the full dose of subs. Then continue the full dose of subs while doing a fast taper off lope. Maybe four days tapering off Loperamide to get to zero, all while taking the full dose of subs. Then start your plan for getting off suboxone at least 72 hours later. I think this will leave you with manageable wds. Plan it for a time when you can pretend to have the flu, just in case.

Does anyone even know what a comperable dose of subs would be to match your 400mg Loperamide? For me, using lope to get off oxycodone, the ratio seems to be somewhere around %100 +/- %25. So for a 100mg/day oxy habit, I start with 75 to 125 mg lope per day in addition to my 100mg oxy on the first day. Then I can quit the oxy on day two or take a little if I want/need it on day 3 -7. That gives Loperamide a MME of approx 1.5 in my body. The big unknown with Loperamide is that it builds up in your body and lasts for 24-48 hours. SO how that translates to suboxone is a huge unknown.

I have had the exact same experience using Loperamide to get off oxycodone. A big dose of lope, expecting it to take away my wds but it never did. 6 hours later, praying for death, I took a big dose of oxy. My wds went away and didnt come back. I took a dose of Loperamide every 8 hours after that, started a taper after 2 days, and I was good.

Your Loperamide habit is really a lot. Whatever happens, could you please report back here in bluelight occasionally on how you got through your recovery? I know there are others who are addicted like you and dont know what to do. If you find a way out then you may be able to help someone else. Anybody who googles Loperamide withdrawls would find your posts and be saved from their suffering..
 
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Lol how does something as useless as imodium have a 30 page thread? Quite unbelievable
 
traybuck said:
Lol how does something as useless as imodium have a 30 page thread? Quite unbelievable
Click to expand...

Seriously? The fact that this thread has so many pages, not to mention it's version 2 meaning there is a version 1 also filled with discussion, didn't clue you in that maybe this drug is actually not so useless?

You realise that loperamide, when taken as directed, is extremely effective as indicated for control of diarrhea. It is so effective at doing so that it wouldn't be a stretch to say that it help save lives. Extreme diarreha can be life threating under certain conditions. So this medication is far from useless.

...And if you spend atleast a minute or two reading any of these posts you would instantly realise large doses of loperamide are extremely useful as a maintenance drug for opioid addicts.

Loperamide use at large doses as an opioid substitute has become so wide spread that restrictions on its sale are starting to be considered...

ChemicallyEnhanced said:
How much Loperamide would I need to make up for an 800mg/day tramadol habit?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I cannot provide a dosage recommendation since I don't know it's equivalency but maybe somebody else can advise you.

The important thing to remember is loperamide is powerful stuff with some very serious side effects and health risks. If you use loperamide as a tramadol substitute you want to make sure to use as little as possible for as short a time as possible.

The goal should be to take just enough to keep you mostly well. If you're taking enough to feel high then you're taking too much and you are putting yourself at far greater risk. So try to just take enough to keep yourself from getting withdrawals. Then quickly taper down or switch to something else as soon as possible.

It's not a good idea to use loperamide long term, only use it short term when no other options are available.

Keep in mind that loperamide takes several hours to kick in fully. So when you dose you must wait like 3-4 hours before deciding whether or not to take more.
 
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My guess is 200-400mg/day lope to keep withdrawls away with a Tramadol habit like that
 
Personally I'd titrate up to that only after 100-125-150mg, etc didn't cut it. I'm 285lbs and have had 150mg smooth out a heavy Morphine WD until I could get my script several days later. I also happen to have good luck with 30-40 hour dosing intervals after I'm stable. Point is the side effects gets nasty if you go to high, like odd vision nystagmus and highly diminished stamina along with electrical heart impulse disturbances (torsades de pointes).
 
Loperamide controversy, questions, and equivalent strength and safety

*mods* this may be abe to be split, as first half is anecdotal and then goes into fact


First off, i want to say that ive been an opiate user for over a decade.Mainly heroin or periods of forced sobriety, due to incarceration, or methadone clinic "sobriety"

Believe it or not loperamides controversy on this site, and a few rumors about it that ive been wondering about (mainly the factual basis of these rumors if there is any) Im more interested in the science behind statements made, and this is not a question of does/doesnt loperamide work, and its not an argument thread.

Ill let everyone know also, that my recent decision to kick 220 mgs of methadone daily for a year straight, with the year before that conisting of working my way up to that maintenance dose, meaning 2 years straght on methadone, prompted my renewed interest in withdrawal management, as i had managed to get ny life somewhat on track after my release from prison, have a car, apartment, bills, job, and a girl who relies on me to pull my weight. i cant just call life off for two months so i can get through withdrawals can i.

Enter bluelight and the loperamide controversy.Being desperate for anything that would just allow me to barely function, i tried it. First a dose of cimetidine (which is not a clinically proven method btw) then a dose of 70 lopermide pills. Within 2 hours i was not only completely fine, but hungry and not drained of energy like i should have been. A redose of 30 made for a very comfortable night.

Mods, i figured this may be a point where you could split the upper from an anecdotal report, to the lower, which is where i start in with the requests for fact based studies and evidence

Ive read all the threads on here where someone responds something along the lines of how stupid loperamide is and what an idiot the poster is etc etc etc, and how it doesnt cross the BBB in any amount that could yield any recreatinal effect, etc etc. Which for me, the only way you should even feel entitled to input anything, is through first hand experiences. Other than reading something and mindlessly repeating it (because theres no way the fda r drug cos would put it out there that its incredibly dangerous knowing peoples tendency to repeat what theyve heard as its gospel) But for me personally, dosing between 100 to 150 daily provides more effect than my 220mgs of methadone daily. The suppression and anxiety relief of methadone added with the general contended feeling of vicodin. I also have hep c which may or may not have an effect on how much is lost with first pass.

So heres what ive come to find as factual basis statements and my questions


Heres one of the main things ive been wondering and been unable to find any info on. Due to the extremely low bioavailabity of loperamide, and the dosage of up to 300 mgs having the effect it does, i conclude that it must be an extrmely potent opioid, just not able to be utilized in a normal fashion. Is there any equivalency done as to its actual strenth equivalency, as far as completely factual based, and not as far as what its bio availabilty is, etc. In other words, WERE it to have a lets say 80 percent OBA, what would its strength be?

Next mosst important question is ACTUAL safety stats. I always see people going on and on about its danger to the heart, but the factual basis is that ALL opiate use can cause serious heart issues and arythmias, and lopermie is extremely molecularly similar to methadone, which in healthy people with no existing heart conditions, is considered fine. And i was wondering if there was any reason to assume that its any more deadly than other opiates? Or when looked at unbiased, is it comparitively safe to say shooting heroin? And i understand that due to the extremely small doses its sold in, the need to take massive amounts of pills seems to be an obvious danger. However, if lopes were sold in 100 mg pills, and you only had to take one, would people perceptions be different? Yes 100 pills is alot, but remember that the vast, vast, vast majority of that is harmless clay like filler. Is there any evidence to say that for otherwise healthy people with strong hearts, that its any WORSE than other opiates?

Loperamide does cross BBB, just at very low doses. Quinine and its analogue have been the only clinically proven substances that increase serum levels, tho pgp inhibitors should theoretically provide increases as well, im not aware of any studies done, and would like to be linked if anyone has any insight on clinical trials.
Coating in nano particles, particualrly a main component of superglue in particular (tho scoffed at by users on here, with the OPs general intelligence in question) is completely viable and shown to work. With minimal equipment and knowledge of how to break thing down/bind molecules, is a very doable excersize, and most assuredly healthier than crocodil (desomorphine) tho when synthesized cleanly and correctly croodil is pretty safe and even marketed under a trade name

Theres also been a study done with a bradykinin analogue i believe, that when administered wth lopermaide, increased the permeabilty of the BBB and increased analgesia by double. Tho it was done in rats so as far as a "high" goes we wont know. If anyone knows of any way to obtain any legal substance that does this, i am unaware


Now to address the ignorant and immature "youll never shit again" statements. Its an opioid. If your body is used to opiates, your fine.
 
DOC#1217709 said it best.
The only way you should feel entitled to input anything is through first hand experience.

I have felt the same emotion many times here reading a post that says Loperamide does not cross the BBB, by someone who has never taken more than two pills. I would love to hear from a person who took 400mg of Loperamide and felt nothing after 6 hours. I think the clinical testing done on humans when lope was made OTC focused on small doses and/or short timelines.
Imagine what kind of person volunteers to take 200 anti-diarrhea pills? This isnt an average soccer-mom. This is a person who has used drugs recreationally before and is so broke that theyre getting medical tests done on themselves for money.
Now imagine that same person goes into take the test. They give him a huge dose of Loperamide. Two hours later he feels fine. They give him his cash, have him sign some papers. 15 minutes he is on a bus going home.
10 minutes into the bus ride he starts to feel something. When he gets home he is floating. He has a strange new euphoria, and its really nice. AND it lasts for hours. Does he go back to the testing facility tomorrow and tell them of his experience?
No. He is a recreational drug user, and he just found that for about 5 dollars he can get high for hours, from something available at any drug store. Theres no way he would let that info out.

What anybody reading this would do: consider the test to be completed because they only wanted to know what happened after 2 hours. Then go straight to WalMart and buy a pack of 400 pills for $12.95. Then wait for the weekend and see if we can do it again!!!

Shut up. Thats exactly what you would do.

I am using Loperamide right now for opiate wd. It works. Anybody who disagrees hasnt REALLY tried it. It takes a couple of hours to start, and a couple of days to reach its full potential. Its a dirty high. It does exactly the same bad stuff to me as oxy does(wds, constipation, dry mouth, dry eyes, etc).

People talk about high doses of lope being dangerous. What is a high dose? I have been scripted as much as 150 mg/day oxycodone for months. How is that not as bad as 150mg/day of Loperamide???

And, I have said it before. Oxy wd makes me suicidal. There is nothing that Loperamide could do my heart beating that is worse that me killing my self.
 
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First post.

Long (24 year) history of on/off opiate abuse (more on than off). Minor use compared to some people - I've had to stay more or less on the ball to hold down a job and family, and luckily, I've always been able to do that. Longest time clean: three years, before job stress put me back on the treadmill again. I've managed to stay fairly low over the last several years - max daily intake of 500 mg DHC, plus grapefruit juice and diphenhydramine. Like so many of us I discovered the wonders of loperamide for withdrawal. No four days of flu symptoms - skip that entirely! The problem is that for various life related reasons I've been flipflopping between DHC and lope - usually a week or so of each and, of course, I now realise the lope wasn't clearing my system fully in the week I was taking DHC. Yep, now I've effectively been taking lope at doses of c. 50mg for about four months and, yep, now I have to go through withdrawal. Which, having read everything here, and Madmargaret's blog, I understand is not going to be my normal 4 days of severe flu symptoms, followed by a week and a half of feeling a bit fragile.

What I would like some idea of, if anyone has experience of withdrawing from this sort of relatively short/low usage, is how much longer am I likely to be looking at? I'm going to need to taper to keep up with work and family etc, but I'm currently finding that even dropping one pill, 2 mg, is leaving me with painfully achy legs. Yes, it's just about bearable - but it's miserable, and it would be much easier to cope with if I had some idea of how long it would last. Most of the described timelines and severity described here and elsewhere are for people who have much longer usage and/or much higher dosages than this (and, seriously, respect to you guys for sticking with it).

Does anyone have this kind of experience?
 
albgol said:
I need help please. I have been on 400-480 mg of loperamide daily for 4 years now
Click to expand...


I've been mega-dosing Loperamide for ~9 years. Luckily, I've been on a 2-year taper, so my current dose is only 108 mg (26 pills, twice daily). Still, I'm not about to let the bullshit U.S. government ruin my life. Without Loperamide, it will only be a matter of weeks before I'm unemployed, homeless, and drug-addicted. My life has been getting better every day for 9 years, and I'm not about to give that up and die, just because the people who run Costco have double-digit IQs.

So the way I see it, we have three options:

1. Go out and buy some heroin (not an option for me; I'm not about to get hooked on real opiates again)
2. Find a bulk supplier of Loperamide in China
3. Buy some meth

The last one is counter-intuitive, and is certainly dangerous for your heart, but it's cheap and effective. Every time I've ever gone on a meth bender, I've suddenly, unexpectedly, and organically reduced my Loperamide intake by 50 - 80%. On one particular bender, I even stopped taking Lope entirely, for several months. I had literally zero withdrawal symptoms (this was when I was taking 240mg/day) other than constant, rapid-fire sneezing. I didn't even have diarrhea. Meth has a lot of paradoxical, opiate-like effects (including constipation and pain relief). The best part about meth is that it's practically free these days. Unfortunately though, when you quit taking the meth, you'll make the same exact organic transition back onto Loperamide. And in case you're wondering, I've never found non-methylated amphetamine (e.g. Adderall, Dexedrine) to be of any help.

As far as the Chinese solution - that's our only hope for Loperamide at this point. Walmart and Costco both stopped carrying the 200-ct bottles this week. They don't even list them on the website anymore. What we need is for someone to have a supplier in China start compounding pills in bulk. The good thing about this approach is that it's dirt cheap, and you can have pills made in any size (10mg, 50mg, etc.) which means you'd only have to take a few pills per day instead of a handful. That would be MUCH easier on your body/kidneys. No more cloudy piss! You could also make the pills white, so you wouldn't be ingesting that potentially poisonous blue dye anymore. So the Chinese pills would actually be safer/healthier. The downside is that China isn't known for having scruples, so you'd have to regularly send samples from each shipment to an independent lab for assay (analysis).
 
I predicted it in this thread a few months ago. 400 ct packages are gone from big box stores now. Next will be legislation.
Whatever your reason.... stock up now. Dont want to spend $40 on a 96ct bottle in Amazon because you got it for 1/4 that price two weeks ago? Wait a few more weeks and you will only find 8 ct blister packs for $12.99.
Come January 2019 it will be locked behind the counter, then later by prescription only.

What sucks so much about this is that Loperamide has effectively a built-in deterrent mechanism that is stronger than any street drug. (You think Im going to point out heart problems and death) People are afraid of constipation worse than the Chinese Mafia. We could probably cure abuse with an ad campaign on impacted bowels and diverticulitis. Meanwhile those of us who found a solution to a horrible problem are likely to turn to heroin.

Lets have a big round of applause for the federal government. 5 years ago I would have said (after all of the stupid crap they have illegalized) - whats next? A war on constipation? - Seems like the answer is yes. Its unbelievable they cant keep their nose out of my shit!
 
Great! My worst fear has been confirmed. I came here to see if anyone else noticed stores not having the 200ct bottles. Fuuuuck. So much for my 7 years off oxy. I liked it much better back in the beginning when no one believed me that loperamide worked! Damn opiate epidemic!

Now I get to see my entire life, as I know it, completely fall apart. This time next week I probably won't have my fiance and two little boys anymore. Or my job. Thanks FDA.
 
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