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looking for super-short acting muscarinic antagonist, similar to datura experience

C0NPAQ

Greenlighter
Joined
Apr 7, 2015
Messages
13
Does such a drug exist?

Ideally, its half-life would be 15-30 minutes and it has to work over acetylcholine like datura or amanita muscaria does. Salvia, DMT, etc. are a whole other realm of effects. I want something that is disruptive to realilty perception, taking away from it or changing it, rather than just augmenting it.

I only know of diphenhydramine (HL 8h), but it is too sedating and also somewhat too mild/dreamy.

Atropine seems to act mainly peripherally, although said to be able to invoke hallucinations. I hardly can find any trip reports about it.

Of all the drugs, I never tried ketamine. It seems to act on all kinds of systems though, not really related to some hallucinogenic action via acetylcholine receptors.

Lastly, the half-life is a big deal. If you explore such a drug, the last thing you want is to end up like this for days in a row .. It is just worthless confusion and a big hazard to mental health. Probalby the only reason why datura is so difficult to profit from at all. Taking a quick peak into the realms of chaos, that makes sense. Diving into it, collapsing from exhaustion and letting it carry you abeach .. not really.

Any suggestions or related experiences?
 
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They don't sound like fun drugs to me, one of the only classes of drugs that really scare me. I think most are long lasting too. You might find scopolamine in some travel sickness pills, that has a half-life of 4.5 hours, at least it'll be easier to control the dose than with datura.

You might be better off looking for a short acting dissociative instead.
 
Not sure if it's what you're looking for (or if there is such a thing) but sinicuichi is an atypical anticholinergic that is reported to have euphoria and mild audio hallucination, and is also said to make colors brighter.

As far as atropine and other anticholinergics, I have used them and I can say, you're better off avoiding them, because they can cause brain damage and mental trauma, and they feel like dying.
 
I read pretty terrible things about sinicuichi, unpleasant painful stuff...

I didn't know atropine can cause brain damage - organic??, how?

Atropine or mainly hyoscyamine / l-atropine does not only act peripherally, is it not the main active tropane alkaloid in datura anyway? Either way I have not heard of a 'selective' antagonist towards this purpose anyway. First you'd have to answer which muscarinic receptor subtype would you want to target to avoid the cottonmouth etc without relinquishing the psychoactive effects.

While intriguing that this kind of state of consciousness is possible, it seems far too dangerous to actually try. I've tried plenty substances but they were not really the kind with intrinsic tendency to completely destroy or undermine healthy human undercurrents of volition. Maybe only some cyclizine years ago but I was being foolish.
Looking for the same thing but short acting does not make it safe, I just don't think you can have your cake and eat it too.

Even amanitas seem to be pushing it, for me.

Just start focusing on other intriguing states of consciousness that are mind-blowing without needing restraints half the time.
 
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Long term (low dose) use of (otc) anticholinergics has been linked to dementia. I thought scopolamine was the main desired psychoactive in datura? None of them look very recreational or safe. Aminitas seem a bit more tempting, but my friend gave me some about 10 years ago & I just left them to rot, daren't eat them.
 
I think that it can damage your acetylcholine system. I have lost memories from use. Even members of a native american tribe would feed their boys datura during a manhood ceremony to "make them forget what it's like to be a boy and learn how to kill" because of its' effectiveness in this regard.
 
The concentration of total alkaloids in the leaves of Datura stramonium is 0.2–0.5%, hyoscyamine being the major compound and scopolamine (= hyoscine), apoatropine, tropine, belladonnine and hyoscyamine N-oxide minor compounds; more than 70 alkaloids have been identified in the various parts of the plant.

http://database.prota.org/PROTAhtml/Datura stramonium_En.htm

hyoscyamine = L-isomer of atropine, scopolamine = hyoscine which sounds very similar....

Not sure what can be said about long term low dose use vs single time psychoactive dose, but for now I'd say that the direct mental effects or indirect consequences of acutely produced behavior are primarily alarming and alarming enough.

Most people find their experience unpleasant if not dangerous..

I generally don't like to be judgemental but to still want to try it after being properly informed would be or border on pathological obsession or plain foolishness. You'd have to be desperate out of lack of access to proper drugs, or again, just uninformed / experimental and hubristic preadolescent.
 
Why does it have to be an anticholinergic? By the sounds of it you'd probably really enjoy dissociatives (NMDA antagonists).

I would strongly recommend MXE but if you're after something short-acting then you might prefer ketamine.
 
Most people find their experience unpleasant if not dangerous..

I generally don't like to be judgemental but to still want to try it after being properly informed would be or border on pathological obsession or plain foolishness. You'd have to be desperate out of lack of access to proper drugs, or again, just uninformed / experimental and hubristic preadolescent.

Well if you are informed and act responsibly, nothing whatsoever is dangerous. There is an abundance of trip reports from teenagers who just took some pills 10-50x the normal dosage rather arbitrarily, or one day got the genius idea to make tea from a few flowers of brugsmania then went to a party. I really think when people judge this class of drugs, they just go by this impression plus the fact that the drug doesn't produce pleasure but rather displeasure. Hence most people fail to see the point.

But to me it is just about exploring the mind from another perspective. I have tackled the vast majority of receptors with my drug experiences already. There is not much new to learn. I don't need magic mushrooms (or any drug) anymore to see inside and outside my mind like I once did. The very big and very small picture that once intrigued me so much on a trip. What is left in that experience to explore? Fantasy, the unreal or sheer imagination? This does not interest me. Drugs can show you new things, but there is only so much "new" in a certain class of drug.

Maybe it is just me though. I never took drugs to escape reality, but to find it. You can only gain awareness over things once they start changing. And this is all I want to do. Fun or not, it doesn't matter to me at all.
 
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So what's the benefit of datura and the like? I've heard so much about them but really don't understand what good there is

Well what is the benefit of DMT? You learn about yourself, your mind, your thoughts, your emotions. The popular hallucinogens, they just augment things in the mind. So to speak, they take you by the hand and walk you through it. Dissociatives are more like intense dreams. You lose awareness and your imagination spins around. But datura, tackles reality perception itself. Not just feelings or thoughts. This makes it so special and desirable to me.

When I was a teenager I was too afraid to take much. I took very very small amounts so I would get mostly intense vivid dreams I almost believed to be real afterwards. One night I couldn't tell it apart anymore, what I saw and what I imagined. I felt like things were disappearing when they should not. Walking around not exactly knowing why and when and such. I did not see the pattern at all, could not make sense of it. Similarly on another occasion, where I just became very confused and fatigued from it - stopped making sense without knowing how. So I wussed out of it and left it alone forever. I think now over 10 years later the time has come for me, where I can make sense inside this chaos. Trace back the origins. Invent new systems. And this is just very interesting.
 

siamese twinning / double-deckery but asymmetrical? : O

Well if you are informed and act responsibly, nothing whatsoever is dangerous.

Even if some people add irresponsible behavior on top of this being a difficult to handle substance, the whole point is that it influences your actions in a way that can render the best intentions in the world that you may have irrelevant.
So what you say may read like a strong thing on paper, in reality I think you should be prepared to see it fall apart.

If you can't tap your mental potential through meditation or proper but modest use of psychedelics I don't think you are doing it right. Otherwise you would probably see that you don't need much at all to do that yourself.
Sensory deprivation and/or just taking the special time to float in an oceanic experience - how does that not show unlimited potential? How are you bored?

Maybe you are not, being curious and wanting to explore is fine... but what makes you think that deliriants have the answers?
I think that regardless of the half-life of the drug of your choosing, if something like this is what you want, you will need the same precautions. Nibbling off an hour does not make it safe to squeeze it into an agenda to be able to do it without certain safety measures.

I would advise against natural extractions as apparently potency can vary almost by an order of magnitude. So it would require making a homogenic standardized product if not a synthetic / pharmaceutical product. Then some titration with always the same precautions. So it will be serious effort, if what you said was as serious.

Some of the dissociatives currently sold can also cause amnesia / mania and very erratic or dangerous behavior when used improperly, still they seem like a much better option. But while I do not like recommendation of drugs, it seems like you are skipping a few things here assuming that they are not the right means, or just because you cannot find them perhaps?
I don't mean to tell you how many psychedelics you have tried, but it comes across as hasty writing off a lot of great drugs in favor of something like.. deliriants..
 
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I only know of diphenhydramine (HL 8h), but it is too sedating and also somewhat too mild/dreamy.

All deliriants are the furthest thing from mild when you reach high enough dosages. If it's complete disruption of reality you're looking for then no deliriant is really better than any other in that respect, though I'd honestly argue that things like DPH are a better idea than say Datura simply because it's a lot less easy to overdose on DPH, and the risks for getting injured/killed during a deliriant trip are high enough without throwing the inherent risk of overdose on top.

If you're looking for a cholinergic deliriant, it's going to be dreamy, and it's going to be as mild or potent as you dose it. As for sedation? If you want a more *stimulating* deliriant, look to the nicotinics and various varieties of tobacco that are much more potent cholinergics more akin to Datura than to regular tobacco.

That said your reasons for seeking a deliriant sound more like something where a dissociative would be of benefit. " Taking a quick peak into the realms of chaos" is not what deliriants provide, since they tend to provide one of two types of experience: One being an experience where it feels too mild and unsatisfying, the other where it is the furthest thing from mild but you forget you've even taken a drug and think everything is normal, all the while potentially opening yourself up to many possibilities for injury, getting arrested, or worse..

A dissociative like the one you mentioned (Ketamine) on the other hand is much like how people used to describe psychedelics, as somewhat reducing the effects of the filters your mind has on reality, letting you slip into the eye of the storm and see the inner workings of the poles of Chaos and Order as they battle vying for control of your reality. You won't get scared, but you won't be given false emotional bliss, just a neutral perspective as an observer. Ketamine also lasts a short time, around an hour, and even the strongest of trips will leave you completely grounded and capable of going about your normal life 1-2 hours later at the most. :)

If you genuinely want to hallucinate without knowing you're even hallucinating, I suggest investing time in a school of meditation and training of the mind, you'd be surprised what you can do to your reality with the right self-control, plus you can do such a thing at the flip of a switch so to speak rather than being bound by an agreed upon duration the moment you swallow a certain substance.
 
Even if some people add irresponsible behavior on top of this being a difficult to handle substance, the whole point is that it influences your actions in a way that can render the best intentions in the world that you may have irrelevant.
So what you say may read like a strong thing on paper, in reality I think you should be prepared to see it fall apart.
You are arguing that if your approach (i.e. the steps of preparation to deal with the experience) is to act as safe and responsibly as that nothing considerably dangerous can happen, you should change this approach in advance to also incorporate failure of the approach itself into it. This is a fallacy and not possible. The primary outcome is the entire elimination of critical failures. It already accomodates for failures of combinations of individual steps, and nothing further can be done or needs to be done.

I believe what you were actually trying to say is, that you should not be overconfident and incorporate safety measures, while you were assuming that no safety measure can ever be sufficient enough to deal with this substance. Hence you should still expect failure. This is on the one hand untrue, considering reasonable risk assessments. On the other, sufficient safety measures are already part of responsible behavior that eliminate danger. Even if it means in the end, that no considerable amounts of the drug can be taken at all. That the method is safe, is the foremost reality taking place. Whereas having a meaningful trip is the desired outcome, which is at danger not to occur.

If you can't tap your mental potential through meditation or proper but modest use of psychedelics I don't think you are doing it right. Otherwise you would probably see that you don't need much at all to do that yourself.
Sensory deprivation and/or just taking the special time to float in an oceanic experience - how does that not show unlimited potential? How are you bored?
This is a general argument against all psychedelic drugs, stating that they are basically (or in a certain light) superflous and you can just gain the same things without them. I just want to say quite frankly to this, that people don't have unlimited livespans to meditate 10 hours a day for decades and that hallucinogenics are just very reasonable shortcuts. You gain a lot in much more intensity and speed, while accepting a certain risk and loss of detail in return. All hallucinogenics work just like this in terms of mental exploration. It is not feasible at all to gain as much from meditation as it is from meditation plus drugs in your lifetime.

And I don't believe that there is such a thing as an universal method that can just do anything. Drugs can do a part and meditation can and there is a certain larger overlap between the two. To gain the most, you have to just do all approaches the way it makes most sense, without disregarding one in favor of the other.

Maybe you are not, being curious and wanting to explore is fine... but what makes you think that deliriants have the answers?
I think that regardless of the half-life of the drug of your choosing, if something like this is what you want, you will need the same precautions. Nibbling off an hour does not make it safe to squeeze it into an agenda to be able to do it without certain safety measures.
I am not sure what you are saying. There are many answers and different drugs have different effects. If you like to explore different countries then maybe one day you might want to explore Antarctica as well. Just because it is cold there and somewhat dangerous doesn't make it inherently invalid. But you probably don't want to book a flight that picks you up 3 month later, but maybe after 3 days instead. What can a researcher learn with his research base off that continent, maybe with just a solid tent, staying there 3 month instead of just a day or two taking samples?

The half-life is just a very simple pragmatic consideration, concerning living an everyday life and especially concerning to profit from the experience. Datura just acts so long that it is quite inhumane and superflous to remain in that state of mind for the entire time.

I would advise against natural extractions as apparently potency can vary almost by an order of magnitude. So it would require making a homogenic standardized product if not a synthetic / pharmaceutical product. Then some titration with always the same precautions. So it will be serious effort, if what you said was as serious.
I don't even want to take any plant-based materials. That you have to create homogenous preparations and slowly touch up the dosage over the course of weeks is simple 1:1 knowledge about datura trips, that you will find anywhere, and can reason yourself if you just inform yourself about the plant. Anyone who does not even know this will just end up acting irresponsibly.


Some of the dissociatives currently sold can also cause amnesia / mania and very erratic or dangerous behavior when used improperly, still they seem like a much better option. But while I do not like recommendation of drugs, it seems like you are skipping a few things here assuming that they are not the right means, or just because you cannot find them perhaps?
I don't mean to tell you how many psychedelics you have tried, but it comes across as hasty writing off a lot of great drugs in favor of something like.. deliriants..
It seems to me that you were skipping a few things. Namely that we already cleared that cautious, responsible and informed behavior must be a given. You could write a whole book about how you can make the many options available for deliriants and dissociatives safe and what dangers they have etc. ... but that is just plainly off topic imho.

Also I want to try this particular substance/effect class (or however you may call it) and I am or were not skipping or disregarding any other. It seems to me that you just want to divert me from taking datura-alike drugs at all. But the very topic is about finding datura-alike drugs (with less grave disadvantages). So it seems confusing to me.
 
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All deliriants are the furthest thing from mild when you reach high enough dosages. If it's complete disruption of reality you're looking for then no deliriant is really better than any other in that respect, though I'd honestly argue that things like DPH are a better idea than say Datura simply because it's a lot less easy to overdose on DPH, and the risks for getting injured/killed during a deliriant trip are high enough without throwing the inherent risk of overdose on top.

If you're looking for a cholinergic deliriant, it's going to be dreamy, and it's going to be as mild or potent as you dose it. As for sedation? If you want a more *stimulating* deliriant, look to the nicotinics and various varieties of tobacco that are much more potent cholinergics more akin to Datura than to regular tobacco.

Do you have any particular tobacco variants in mind? I am not sure but I believe nicotinic is not so preferable, since I also take quite a lot of nicotine to be able to think straight and I would need that very much during a trip.

I took high dosed DPH and I would basically have very twisted dreams while staring on the floor and feeling sick. Then later I hardly could remember any of it. I think DPH is just too histaminic and too hypnotic. I don't even have a solid idea what drugs you could possibly take to cancel those components. As soon as the mind goes into "sleep mode" it just seems pointless to me. Even if you are technically awake. I need an active consciousness. Datura just seems to accomplish that, so I doubt that all anticholinergics (nicotinic or not) are "dreamy" in that sense.

That said your reasons for seeking a deliriant sound more like something where a dissociative would be of benefit. " Taking a quick peak into the realms of chaos" is not what deliriants provide, since they tend to provide one of two types of experience: One being an experience where it feels too mild and unsatisfying, the other where it is the furthest thing from mild but you forget you've even taken a drug and think everything is normal, all the while potentially opening yourself up to many possibilities for injury, getting arrested, or worse..

A dissociative like the one you mentioned (Ketamine) on the other hand is much like how people used to describe psychedelics, as somewhat reducing the effects of the filters your mind has on reality, letting you slip into the eye of the storm and see the inner workings of the poles of Chaos and Order as they battle vying for control of your reality. You won't get scared, but you won't be given false emotional bliss, just a neutral perspective as an observer. Ketamine also lasts a short time, around an hour, and even the strongest of trips will leave you completely grounded and capable of going about your normal life 1-2 hours later at the most. :)
Yes, I regret so much that I never tried ketamine in the past. I will definitively check it out as well, but I don't think that it really provides the same kind of experience as anticholinergics/datura. It is just turning so many knobs neurochemically. I guess the primary effect will take place over delta/kappa/mu opioid receptors and NMDA receptors, which I clearly don't really want.

If you genuinely want to hallucinate without knowing you're even hallucinating, I suggest investing time in a school of meditation and training of the mind, you'd be surprised what you can do to your reality with the right self-control, plus you can do such a thing at the flip of a switch so to speak rather than being bound by an agreed upon duration the moment you swallow a certain substance.
Ironically, this seems much much more dangerous to me, if I actually made it a reality. The modus of thoughts on drugs, remains to only work on the drug, because the drug is the cause of the distortion. Whereas changing my modus of thought to be able to easily create a distorted and twisted reality will have as long-lasting debillitating consequences as much as I succeed in it.

I am not really sure how much power people actually have inside their mind. But I have really tried to invoke auditory hallucinations before by changing my default mental state on certain unrelated mildly dosed non-hallucinogenic drugs (so I had a better reference for reversing it later). And well it works ... but it messes with so many things that you don't ever want to tackle. It took weeks/month to do and to reverse, such that my mind became as failsaved again against errors as it was before. If you really punched this into your head, you could give yourself all sorts of defects that run rampant and are hard to counteract. Why would you want that at all?

Even if you are a foolish drug user and take insane risks, all that drugs ever can do is to overcharge your mind and body, like a short term psychosis. Maybe you fry a few cells and your mind ends up in a mess for a while. But given the short time frames, it is just as easy to get back to where you came from as it was to get inside it. You still have arms, still have legs, didn't jump off a bridge: all fine. But picture you render yourself insane like suggested over the course of month and years. That really seems crazy and irresponsible to me.
 
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Salvia, DMT, etc. are a whole other realm of effects. I want something that is disruptive to realilty perception, taking away from it or changing it, rather than just augmenting it.

You admitted you haven't tried ketamine, well, I don't believe you've tried salvia or DMT either. Or you wouldn't be talking such nonsense. Just as a hole-dose of ketamine, Proper doses of DMT and salvia don't only augment reality, they completely rearange it.

These 3 drugs, in 3 different ways, totally fit what you are asking for. But you don't want to be told that. You're exactly like every other person coming in here asking questions about deleriants. It's always the same.

You don't want ketamine, because of it's binding profile? lol, just lol 8)

Good luck finding your perfect deleriant.
 
Sorry, but the way you throw around and use these neuropharmacological terms rubs me the wrong way. I'm not sure any of the scientists who actually discovered the bits of knowledge you are using to make your inferences would agree that the confidence you place in them to produce your desires are warranted. They seem to be coming out of a place of blind faith embodied in the logic that something happening at receptor X *must* do this or receptor Y must do that, and it is the same core you that is laying witness to the effects of these molecular interactions. I think if you took the time to study these neurochemical/biological systems in-depth, you'd see how their immense interconnectedness and complexity makes the way you're currently talking about them seem simplistic and fantastical, more products of wishful thinking than truly justified belief.
 
Well I see a point of negative reception is reached where further discussions hardly make any sense, sadly. As evident by just pointless doubts about my person, that I do not have to justify at all. Neither would it benefit anything.

@:DNA:

I speak with very high confidence about the effects of different neurotransmitters and neuromodulators, precisely because the nervous system is very complicated and surpasses scientific understanding in anything but this (mostly). You will not get the same underlying effects from a drug that acts on serotonin receptors that you will get from a drug that acts on dopamine receptors. Simple as that (yes there are certain overlaps and a lot of systems compensate for each other to some degree, plus whatever magic that largely isn't happening or relevant in context at all). If you don't feel this way on drugs, then in my view your reality perception is just not very accurate. Maybe you lack diverse experiences, maybe it is just psychological.

To reduce the nervous system to just neurotransmitters is very very simplistic. Nonetheless it is a valid model and it makes sense. If science wouldn't yet sufficiently understand the exact function and composition of blood, you could as well reduce it to just chemical components, like iron, carbon, etc., or just proteins, whatever you can be certain of to be true, and make sense with that knowledge as well. It is all a matter of understanding scope, not a matter of finding some kind of universal truth that would allow for easy flawless logic.

I have studied the nervous system, though scientific knowledge and direct experiences. There are no meaningfully large or complicated interconnections between the different neurotransmitter systems in a matter relevant to a drug's fundamental action. This is exactly the reason why they have been scientifically identified and are now categorized and listed on every wikipedia page. The neurotransmitters a drug acts on allow for immediate conclusions about pharmacological properties. Of course this only lets you draw very loose and general conclusions. But that doesn't make it wrong. Again it is a matter of realizing the scope. Undoubtably it does not allow for predictions about whether or not you will see the second coming of Elvis on a trip. Psychiatry and related pharmacological research even go as far as to use this knowledge (in lack of better options) to treat mental disorders. Drugs are developed specifically for certain disorders based on very certain pharmacological profiles, then tested, prescribed and marketed in that sense. This truly is the kind of logic that pales in comparison to be ridiculously overconfident, simplistic and and fantastical. Mental disorder are much more complicated than just making certain simple immediate experiences, as I am trying to do.

I am not immediately expecting some kind of concrete, instant, problem-solving drop-in-and-forget-magic enlightenment or revelations with this, or whatever people seem to be assuming here. It is not about Elvis either. I explored all sorts of drugs, and I realized that the anticholinergics/datura-alike are an area where I lack experience. I also realize loosely what makes them unique and interesting, because I have taken them briefly in the past. So I want to know more about them. I already am familiar with most of the rest. That is the whole reasoning behind my choice. If you have enough experiences you just might want to go into this direction as well.

A scientist reasons differently, because a scientist is not interested in experiencing the immediate effects of many drugs, but interested in writing scientific papers and conducting studies. Therefore, a scientist might rather profit from being entirely blinded if not outright hostile towards pragmatic reasoning because he has to give his best to stick to the reasoning that floats well with scientific rigor and contributions to scientific advancement, in a manner that is legitimate/usable within the scientific community. I am not claiming to be a scientist, and people on this board largely aren't either. I am not trying to write any scientific papers here, or anywhere in the near future somewhere else. But we could as well posess the same amount of meaningful scientific knowledge, and use it for our own purposes. It is just not a contradiction, nor does it make the knowledge and reasoning less viable. I explain this, because people in general seem to have a really hard time to understand it.

Rather the contrary to what you said is true: The more you have sufficient direct experiences of drugs acting onto your nervous system and the scientific knowledge about it, the more you will be able to draw conclulsions by connecting the two together and make predictions. After all, much of anything we know about the nervous system was discovered and is derived from experimenting with drugs, after which knowledge is ordered and structured scientifically. Nicotinic acetylcholine receptors got their name from nicotine. Muscarinic receptors got their name from muscarine which was named after amanita muscaria, opiod receptor from opium, and so on. Drugs that agonize nicotinic acetylcholine receptors are by definition in some sense similar to nicotine in their effect. I don't know what's so hard to understand about this ... or how it would suddenly all be more interconnected and complicated such that science became overly mysterious in its results, outcomes and usefulness to medicine. Seriously.

And I really don't know why you are all starting to get so negative and presumptuous about the things I said.
 
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To shoot a bit more over the roof here, I spent some more time to analyze and visualize the subliminal secondary conversation that has been going on in this thread ...

http://s23.postimg.org/m5o5xh6eh/bl1.png

The vast majority of content in this thread focuses, if not just fanatically obsesses, on the content of this simplified secondary conversation. I now pointlessly complain about this. Maybe though, it will open the eyes of someone else.
 
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