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Long term effects single high dose of MDMA may have caused?

Now I'm focused to find all the information how to help damaged brain axons to recover — as much as possible.

The key for brain health is to increase BDNF (+NGF) levels. The best way to up-regulate brain-derived neurotophic factor is aerobic exercise, but proper nutrition + supplements (curcumin for example) helps.

More information:
Exercise + BDNF: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/30/how-exercise-benefits-the-brain/?_r=0
Nutrition & neurogenesis: http://web.stanford.edu/group/hopes/cgi-bin/wordpress/2011/07/diet-and-neurogenesis/
11 ways to stimulate BDNF: http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2013/03/05/11-ways-to-grow-new-brain-cells-and-stimulate-neurogenesis/
Big list of substances & suplements that promote BDNF: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/58707-big-list-of-substances-that-increase-bdnf/
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PS. One of the most convincing summaries of MDMA:s neurotoxicity issues I've read so far:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181923/
 
One of the most convincing summaries of MDMA:s neurotoxicity issues I've read so far

I disregarded the review as soon as I looked at the references and saw they mentioned lots of Ricaurte studies. Any academic who knows the field of MDMA literature well enough should be completely avoiding his work as it has been proven conclusively that they administered methamphetamine. This review was published in 2009 so I can't help but brand it as 'just another biased review'. They also say that interspecies scaling somehow means that animal data is relevant to humans (but naturally they don't explain how and instead just provide a reference). From my knowledge, and I know Black has a study that discusses it extensively, rat doses are analagous to humans and so the monster doses are not relevant to humans (unless you're injecting 1g twice a day for 4 days).

These data strongly suggest that if ecstasy users are indeed suffering neurotoxic damage to their serotonergic system, the functional consequences may be subtle.


It's difficult to entertain that 'neurotoxic damage' has only 'subtle' consequences. Those with true markers of brain damage (say accidents inducing lesions) display ridiculously high functional consequences. I'd say it's more likely that the subtle functional consequences are more a result of something else non-related to actual neuronal death. MDMA doesn't necessarily have to induce to neurotoxicity to cause behavioural changes it could be a result of something else (for instance, prolonged 5-HT depletion).

The review also acknowledges the role of hyperthermia during neurotoxicity. A large part of MDMA-induced neurotoxicity is a result of extreme body temperature whereas if body temperature is kept lower it is markedly reduced, even at large doses. Once again, unless you're being extremely irresponsible and letting yourself overheat ridiculously without drinking any water then significant neurotoxicity is just highly unlikely even at high doses. I can't help but feel you had one irresponsible night and now you're trying to prowl the internet convincing yourself you've induced 'damage'. I've seen others doing the same.

The key for brain health is to increase BDNF (+NGF) levels. The best way to up-regulate brain-derived neurotophic factor is aerobic exercise, but proper nutrition + supplements (curcumin for example) helps

The key to brain health is a little more complex than just increase X or Y. It's an old cliché but living a healthy lifestyle is the best way to keep your brain healthy. You don't need lots of supplements or anything really. I've gone through similar thought processes as yourself purchasing 'nootropic' drugs hoping to increase BDNF and my overall brain function but in reality I'm not sure I noticed much more than a placebo effect. Unlike the body in general, the brain can be changed through your own thoughts and behaviours and so it's not as simple as just increasing chemicals etc.
 
1. it's not impossible, but again with no clear indication that such a thing can happen, it feels like grasping at straws to keep the hypothesis of serotonergic neurotoxicity alive. for everything we know about axon loss it always results in glial activation.

2. i understand what you're saying. but without access to the more details about their setup/data we can't assess wheter it could be problem here. it could be conclusively ruled out if they repeated the experiment with 5,7-DHT. (or maybe even by simply looking up if it's already known how vmat2 is distributed. with it being a marker for parkinson's, someone surely must have looked into that...).
but since vmat2 as far as we know is essential for 5-ht reuptake, it's not too likely that we find much lower levels than for da/ne axons.

i don't remember many details about the clinical studies right now (i'll look it up later), but i remember that some didn't account for other drug use (meth! and cannabis). some long term effects can be explained by serotonin depletion/dysregulation (due to abuse), but apart from that we see increased anxiety in rats even in the absence of lowered 5-HT/SERT/TPH. not every long term side effect has to be due to neurotoxicity (cannabis is non-neurotoxic and the effects on memory are iirc even clearer than with mdma).

PS. One of the most convincing summaries of MDMA:s neurotoxicity issues I've read so far:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181923/
this one doesn't include the newer research about interspecies scaling and monkeys have a completely different metabolism of mdma, thus making them an unsuitable model.
 
Black, do you have another explanation than the neurotoxicity model for the devastating long term problems of dozens of light (<5 times) MDMA users on this forum?
 
do you have another explanation than the neurotoxicity model for the devastating long term problems of dozens of light (<5 times) MDMA users on this forum?
MDMA-induced depression/anxiety compounded by self-diagnosis, genetic predisposition for mental health problems that were triggered by MDMA, long-term monoamine depletion induced by MDMA through a mechanism we do not yet understand, HPPD, something else entirely (most likely) or a combination of 2 or more of the above,...

I'm not saying I have any way of knowing for sure that neurotoxicity can be ruled out, though I think it's very unlikely to occur at normal doses given what I've seen and read. However to state "I have long-lasting adverse effects so I must have neurological damage" is incorrect to say the least, there's a plethora of possible other causes, you can't point to any one cause with any certainty with the data you have at your disposal. In most cases neuropathy is irreversible by the way, so if the cases you mention had genuine neuropathy they would not see big improvements to the symptoms over time, which in most cases does happen. Also you state
dozens of light (<5 times) MDMA users on this forum
Over all the years that bluelight has existed, perhaps, but the cases of serious long-term adverse effects from normal/light usage are a very small minority. The MDMA recovery thread has grown substantially in a short timespan, but the posts in there are made by a handful of bluelighters at any given time, not dozens as you state and certainly not dozens of light users. I personally do not know anyone in real life that ever suffered from anything similar, and I know some of the worst abuse cases you can imagine. Like any psychoactive chemical there are risks involved with usage but objectively looking at the data available my personal opinion is that when you control all the variables, neurotoxicity is very unlikely to occur. That's not to say other health problems might not rear their ugly heads
 
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Black, do you have another explanation than the neurotoxicity model for the devastating long term problems of dozens of light (<5 times) MDMA users on this forum?

neurotoxicity isn't a good explanation for that at all. if we see devastating problems with people who use just a little mdma just a few times, we would see absolutely debilitating problems for the great majority of the users.

i agree with bluebull here. mdma does deplete serotonin and cause some transient dysregulation of the serotonin system as well as lowered levels of cortisol (which might also be a confounding factor or someone has pointed out here in ED some time ago) at high doses. we have some very good indications placing the dose around 10mg/kg, but of course we still don't for sure. also, human use isn't as controlled as lab animals, so there will be other factors playing a role here. i've recently read a study wherein they show that large doses of caffeine lower the threshold for serotonin depletion to 2.5mg/kg (yikes!), ambient temperature/physical activity is involved (but cannot explain the issue by itself since nearly everyone goes dancing in a club), poly drug use, and there are definitely going to be individual differences - for instance with CYP2D6. that one might offer an explanation if the bluelighers in the recovery thread all agreed that they couldn't get high off codeine...

and of course there's also anxiety. we know that mdma can lead to anxiety in doses too low to influence serotonin system function even for short periods of time. another thing pointing to anxiety is that many reports are pretty much spot on for panic attacks and that many people feel alright once they can chill out. i myself have had "ltc" symptoms before and taking benzos for a few days completely returns me to normal, reliably. anxiety also easily turns into a viscous circle, prolonging the whole thing for undue amounts of time. i'm pretty sure that it's sufficient as an explanation for most cases and for the rest the reasons from the first paragraph (together with underlying mental health issues) are surely enough. an mdma "ltc" is always temporary, neurotoxicity is not. if neurotoxicity was the cause you wouldn't see people claiming "it's now one and a half months and i'm at 90% again".
 
do you have another explanation than the neurotoxicity model for the devastating long term problems of dozens of light (<5 times) MDMA users on this forum?

I'm sure we've been here before and the problem is the general assumption of LTC = neurotoxic damage. I've said it before but the brain really is more complex than simply depleted chemical X = behavioural symptom Y. Or behavioural symptom Y = neuron X damage. It's a wide problem in psychiatry in general that symptoms for conditions are often highly overlapping to the point where say someone diagnosed with autism also qualifies for a diagnosis of ADHD, OCD etc etc. So the point is that trying to determine what is actually wrong in the brain based on behavioural symptoms has it's inherent issues hence why the assumption of LTC = neurotoxic damage is flawed. Bluebull hit the nail on the head with other explanations that actually have a bit more of an evidence-base surrounding them:

MDMA-induced depression/anxiety compounded by self-diagnosis, genetic predisposition for mental health problems that were triggered by MDMA

Lots of people, including myself even, go through depression/anxiety completely unrelated to any drug use. Anxiety itself is not necessarily a sign of brain damage but rather systems of the brain becoming dysfunctional. Genes typically provide a 'general outline' of who you're going to become and therefore how prone you are to anxiety. But then, interestingly, the way your genes express themselves changes as a result of your thoughts, behaviours & experiences effectively changing the way in which you will further develop. It's a big interactive relationship between genetic disposition, behaviour, experiences & thoughts ultimately resulting in who you become. Hence, in my opinion, self-diagnosis and obsession with 'MDMA-induced neurotoxicity' probably causes more harm to your brain function than the MDMA actually did itself. Especially in those who took low doses where there is absolutely no doubt that long-lasting brain damage doesn't occur.

Another consideration is the fact we are sociologically hard-wired into the philosophy of 'drugs are bad'. Even those who take numerous illegal drugs will typically rate there dangers higher than alcohol despite scientific evidence suggesting otherwise. A part of MDMA-induced anxiety could also be related to the fact that we are scared shitless about drugs by this propaganda and therefore we completely blow things out of proportion. If we acknowledge that experiences and thoughts can cause anxiety then this could explain why new, light-users seem to experience such profound anxiety. This initially large fear then translates into an obsession with self-diagnosis and 'neurotoxicity' during the comedown effectively just reinforcing the anxiety and becoming something far beyond a typical 'comedown'.

It could also be a result of MDMA actually causing PTSD in a similar way that it can in fact cure it. Once more, people are hard-wired into 'drugs are bad' but have had a few drinks and decide to try it. They become extremely anxious realizing what they've done and go into an anxious meltdown while on MDMA causing a bad trip (it is possible to have a bad trip on MDMA). They come out of the experience feeling traumatized developing PTSD which is known to last a long time and rarely just goes on it's own. It makes sense to me that if MDMA, when used properly, can treat PTSD then when it is used improperly, it could instead cause PTSD. Here's some info I found on PTSD which is interesting.

In most cases, the symptoms develop during the first month after a traumatic event. However, in a minority of cases, there may be a delay of months or even years before symptoms start to appear.

Delayed onset is in-line with some threads in here which talk about how they 'went back to normal but then it all started happening weeks later'. Those threads certainly aren't in-line with a neurotoxicity account since the neurons would be destroyed instantly and so the effects would occur very quickly.

Some people with PTSD experience long periods when their symptoms are less noticeable, followed by periods where they worsen. Other people have severe symptoms that are constant.

Once more in-line with the posters who talk about how sometimes they have good days and others they have bad days. Or discussing how they thought they were recovered but now feel another set-back. While it's all completely speculative, it seems more plausible to me than neurotoxicity being involved here.
 
First off, let me say that I have no stakes in whether long term problems are due to neurotoxicity or not. I am not claiming that they are. Please keep that in mind.

i agree with bluebull here. mdma does deplete serotonin and cause some transient dysregulation of the serotonin system as well as lowered levels of cortisol (which might also be a confounding factor or someone has pointed out here in ED some time ago) at high doses.

Then why aren't the "clinical" symptoms transient? Why do I still have bruxism 14 month after ingesting MDMA for the first time? Why do I still have HPPD? Why do I still have unrelenting insomnia? Why do I have memory and concentration problems still?

I have become lactose intolerant, and a check-up at the doctor revealed that my genotype basically excludes primary lactose intolerance as an option. This is consistent with my ethnicity and family where lactose-intolerance is unheard of. I have become allergic to shampoos that I've used for 15 years, toothpaste, coffee, tea, alcohol, et cetera. These don't seem transient 14 months in.

Again, whether the answer to this is because of serotonergic neurotoxicity or not - I don't give a fuck. The thing I'm trying to point out is that pinning it on "underlying psychological issues", or predisposition for mental illness is totally speculative and doesn't cut it at all. Most sufferers suffer much more than anxiety and/or depression.
Is there any research pointing to "long-term monamine depletion" from MDMA? What's our best bet here? Somehow saying that it's latent damage being revealed is also far fetched since "LTC symptoms" are so similar between users, and our only shared culprit is MDMA. Some particulars of the symptoms are really amazingly similar when you get into detail with specific users.
An underlying issue like multiple sclerosis or something may be the answer, but all of the sufferers who have had MRIs have gotten their results back negative. I'm getting checked for MS next friday.

Also, I don't think neurotoxicity can be ruled out as a possible explanation. The research out there may be lacking, it may be inconclusive, but just because there isn't conclusive evidence in a limited body of research does not mean that it does not exist. Of all the theories put forward it seems to me that neurotoxicity is the least speculative. Obviously I wish there was another explanation that would make it easier for me to hope for the future.

an mdma "ltc" is always temporary, neurotoxicity is not. if neurotoxicity was the cause you wouldn't see people claiming "it's now one and a half months and i'm at 90% again".

Is it really? A "LTC" isn't some lingering issues for a few weeks after MDMA use. It's months and years of suffering multiple symtpoms. For any real LTC recovery story I think I can give you two examples of people who have not recovered. I won't bet money on it but it would be interesting to try.

Over all the years that bluelight has existed, perhaps, but the cases of serious long-term adverse effects from normal/light usage are a very small minority. The MDMA recovery thread has grown substantially in a short timespan, but the posts in there are made by a handful of bluelighters at any given time, not dozens as you state and certainly not dozens of light users. I personally do not know anyone in real life that ever suffered from anything similar, and I know some of the worst abuse cases you can imagine. Like any psychoactive chemical there are risks involved with usage but objectively looking at the data available my personal opinion is that when you control all the variables, neurotoxicity is very unlikely to occur. That's not to say other health problems might not rear their ugly heads

I did not exaggerate. This whole post of yours is a testament to how little you know about the LTC and the users on BL that are suffering as a result of it. I'm not trying to be rude here, but I'm being frank because I really think it's sad how the long term issues suffered by many (still a minority) of BL users are being downplayed.

Now, obviously there's only a very small minority of MDMA users that's experiencing these issues. I don't think anyone has tried to say that this happens to most MDMA users.

All the users on the follwing list, more or less off the top of my head, are suffering LONG TERM from minimal use of MDMA. Of the sufferers on this list I think Derok may be the hardest user, IIRC he used 6 times. Please comment if some of these LTC sufferers really did abuse and I got it wrong.

Scaredfirsttimer
Zebrafish
Derok
Delfin
Coderbrah
Mindovermatter1
India111
Me2point0
Thejibberman
imabicycle
Deltronpedro
Cursedx
Tom9212121
Badroll7
Nambo
Whatswrongwithme
Matthew Reece
bben

Most if not all on this list is still suffering to some extent or another. If you really want I can dig up another dozen.

I also have a spreadsheet somewhere, mostly incomplete, of about 70 LTC sufferers from bluelight. IIRC those users are some of the reports of the last two years. A very shy estimate would be that there must be >100 LTC reports from the last 3 years.
 
Just curious, but how many of those users can you attribute mdma as the sole cause of their "long term comedown?" Were all of them fully healthy in body AND mind? Do they live healthy lifestyles and not just rely on some vitamins from GNC? Did they not already have, or are susceptible to, depression or anxiety? What about posters who use multiple sns?

It's overblown. Most of the people who suffer the "LTC" need to look at themselves, instead of the substance, if they want something to blame. Handy guides exist on how to take mdma safely and without issues, but guess what? The people who have major issues tend to NOT follow them and/or heed the warnings.

I've read a little bit of those threads, and that's what I've gleaned from reading them. A very few amount of users actually took the substance responsibly and still came out with an LTC. I question that as well, since there isn't a way to verify the accuracy of their posts, except the posters themselves who know what's up.

It's almost unheard of for healthy people to suffer long term over a few mdma trips. More often than not, the users own problems have more to do with it than mdma itself, which only made it worse. That IS one of the warnings given before using mdma.
 
I did not exaggerate. This whole post of yours is a testament to how little you know about the LTC and the users on BL that are suffering as a result of it. I'm not trying to be rude here, but I'm being frank because I really think it's sad how the long term issues suffered by many (still a minority) of BL users are being downplayed.

Now, obviously there's only a very small minority of MDMA users that's experiencing these issues. I don't think anyone has tried to say that this happens to most MDMA users.
Look, if I came off as downplaying what you and others are/were experiencing I'm sorry, that was truthfully not my intention. I wholeheartedly agree that for some people, something is going on. These are the points I was trying to make:

I think the real cause of this is going to be something else other than neuropathy. I never stated I'm convinced the cause is psychological. I never stated I'm convinced the cause is physical. The truth is I don't know, I have some theories of my own that I think make more sense than neuropathy but nobody here on bluelight knows the absolute truth, that's for sure.

Further I think that if you divide the number of people suffering from a "true ltc" by the total number of MDMA users, even the total number of MDMA abusers, you'd get a very very small ratio. I think looking at how many people use MDMA and in what way some are using it, the relative number of people that experience this is very small. Again I personally don't know a single person that experienced anything like this in real life, and that's saying something. This is absolutely not meant to downplay what you and others are experiencing, it would be interesting to get a picture of just how common this is, that is all I meant by that

Last I can only know what I read on here and what I research on my own. I do read most if not all of the posts made in MED. So I have read extensive descriptions of what it's like, including yours. I made one very very bad decision a few years back, I rolled 4 days in a row (yes, I know, first and last time I ever did anything even remotely as insane) and I experienced absolutely brutal after-effects for about 2 weeks, severe depression for a month. I had some of the same things you described in the recovery thread, but it wasn't very long term, I was back to 100% in a month. So I can somewhat relate, and so I know a little about it, but you have experienced it yourself, that offers a perspective I could never have just by reading posts and research. I actually just started this debate because I don't agree with ltc=neuropathy, I was never arguing the existence of long term after-effects. If drugs like speed and coke can cause it, why not MDMA
 
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Delayed onset is in-line with some threads in here which talk about how they 'went back to normal but then it all started happening weeks later'. Those threads certainly aren't in-line with a neurotoxicity account since the neurons would be destroyed instantly and so the effects would occur very quickly.

I don't think that a delayed onset of symptoms necessarily excludes neurotoxicity. There are several other possible models that may explain a delayed onset of symptoms in the setting of damage to the serotonin system.

For example, the acute oxidative stress from MDMA and its metabolite alpha-methyldopamine may have caused an initial insult to the cellular integrity of the serotonin neuron. This may have activated a cascade (for example, the caspase pathway) leading to apoptosis or Wallerian degeneration of the axon in a delayed fashion after the acute insult. This may have resulted in a population of dysfunctional serotonin neurons accumulating over time until a critical threshold is reached producing the various symptoms of serotonin insufficiency.

Another possible model is the development of an auto-immune response against antigens specifically found on serotonin neurons, as in a Type II or III hypersensitivity response. The initial MDMA exposure may have resulted in a loss of structural integrity of serotonin neurons, exposing specific intracellular antigens not normally exposed to systemic circulating immune factors and cells, which may have led to an auto-immune response, causing a slow steady deterioration of the serotonin system over time.

I'm not saying any of these possibilities are true, but I'm trying to illustrate that the concept that a delayed onset of symptoms cannot exist in the setting of neurotoxicity is not necessarily true.
 
neurotoxicity isn't a good explanation for that at all. if we see devastating problems with people who use just a little mdma just a few times, we would see absolutely debilitating problems for the great majority of the users.

I think the biological and environmental factors necessary to produce long-term MDMA damage from just a few uses exist in a small percentage of the population. As with any drug or medication, the risk of a side effect ranges from common to exceedingly rare, so it's not necessary for the great majority of users have problems with MDMA, for the "LTC" side effect to exist.

Dilantin (phenytoin - an antiepileptic medication), for example, is known to cause Stevens-Johnson syndrome, a condition that causes severe necrosis of the skin. This is a very rare side effect. I have personally not seen anyone have this problem, although I know many people who are on Dilantin, much as the same way you have not personally known anyone with a LTC from MDMA. That does not negate the fact that Steven-Johnson syndrome can be caused rarely by Dilantin.

if neurotoxicity was the cause you wouldn't see people claiming "it's now one and a half months and i'm at 90% again".

After over a year of studying this forum and the users who have experienced long-term problems from MDMA, I've come to realize that more often than not, those who claim partial recovery after a certain time point are either in a state of wishful thinking or in a period of a transient "good day" or "good week." Usually, the next month they will post again how miserable they are.

This is not to say that slow, steady improvement may be taking place, but I would not put too much faith in the "it's now one and a half months and i'm at 90% again" comment as proof that this phenomenon is not neurotoxicity or long-term serotonin damage.
 
MDMA-induced depression/anxiety compounded by self-diagnosis, genetic predisposition for mental health problems that were triggered by MDMA, long-term monoamine depletion induced by MDMA through a mechanism we do not yet understand, HPPD, something else entirely (most likely) or a combination of 2 or more of the above,...

I'm not saying I have any way of knowing for sure that neurotoxicity can be ruled out, though I think it's very unlikely to occur at normal doses given what I've seen and read. However to state "I have long-lasting adverse effects so I must have neurological damage" is incorrect to say the least, there's a plethora of possible other causes, you can't point to any one cause with any certainty with the data you have at your disposal. In most cases neuropathy is irreversible by the way, so if the cases you mention had genuine neuropathy they would not see big improvements to the symptoms over time, which in most cases does happen. Also you state

Over all the years that bluelight has existed, perhaps, but the cases of serious long-term adverse effects from normal/light usage are a very small minority. The MDMA recovery thread has grown substantially in a short timespan, but the posts in there are made by a handful of bluelighters at any given time, not dozens as you state and certainly not dozens of light users. I personally do not know anyone in real life that ever suffered from anything similar, and I know some of the worst abuse cases you can imagine. Like any psychoactive chemical there are risks involved with usage but objectively looking at the data available my personal opinion is that when you control all the variables, neurotoxicity is very unlikely to occur. That's not to say other health problems might not rear their ugly heads

It all depends how you define "damage". Even though we are not 100% sure that axonal degradation or neuronal death is taking place, if we acknowledge that biologic damage is simply a change to the cellular/molecular/gross structure of a biologic entity, such that the functioning of that entity is permanently altered, then we can conclude that MDMA can cause neurologic damage to some people in one of many forms.

If all our serotonin neurons are intact, but we have somehow hypothetically just induced permanent downregulation of our post-synaptic serotonin receptors, that is Damage.

If some people had a genetic predisposition for a mental illness, that was only expressed after administration of MDMA, then that is Damage for those people, based on the above definition.

Hence, I conclude that MDMA DOES cause neurological damage in those having long-lasting adverse effects, which seems to be a small percentage of MDMA users. Based on the longevity of these symptoms in some people, the "long-term monoamine depletion" seems likely to be due to some underlying structural damage to those entities that produce those monoamines. We just have not been able to solidly prove it yet based on sound methodological principles.
 
1. it's not impossible, but again with no clear indication that such a thing can happen, it feels like grasping at straws to keep the hypothesis of serotonergic neurotoxicity alive. for everything we know about axon loss it always results in glial activation.

2. i understand what you're saying. but without access to the more details about their setup/data we can't assess wheter it could be problem here. it could be conclusively ruled out if they repeated the experiment with 5,7-DHT. (or maybe even by simply looking up if it's already known how vmat2 is distributed. with it being a marker for parkinson's, someone surely must have looked into that...).
but since vmat2 as far as we know is essential for 5-ht reuptake, it's not too likely that we find much lower levels than for da/ne axons.

i don't remember many details about the clinical studies right now (i'll look it up later), but i remember that some didn't account for other drug use (meth! and cannabis). some long term effects can be explained by serotonin depletion/dysregulation (due to abuse), but apart from that we see increased anxiety in rats even in the absence of lowered 5-HT/SERT/TPH. not every long term side effect has to be due to neurotoxicity (cannabis is non-neurotoxic and the effects on memory are iirc even clearer than with mdma).


this one doesn't include the newer research about interspecies scaling and monkeys have a completely different metabolism of mdma, thus making them an unsuitable model.

1. I'm not sure if this is always true. I will have to dig up the research, but I recall for example, vincristine, which is a neurotoxic chemotherapy that affects anterograde axonal transport, produce a peripheral neuropathy. However, histological analysis of the affected neurons demonstrate axonal degradation and even demyelination, without the presence of a profound immunological reactive response, or glial cell proliferation. I will try to find the old papers about this, but this would be an example of neuronal dysfunction in the setting of lack of increase of glial markers

2. You are correct that applying a known serotonin neurotoxin to synaptosomes derived from the hippocampus that was pretreated with a NE neurotoxic agent (they would have to prove that NE axons were fully wiped out first) and then measuring the loss of VMAT2, would help ascertain the distribution of VMAT2 in serotonin neurons, but I'm not sure if they proved this, or whether they assumed that VMAT2 is equally distributed amongst all monoamine releasing neurons.
 
For me, one simple fact offers opposition. When the brain is damaged, why are there times a "LTC" sufferer feels good, or does not notice something would be damaged. Why should we function absolutely right from time to time?
 
For me, one simple fact offers opposition. When the brain is damaged, why are there times a "LTC" sufferer feels good, or does not notice something would be damaged. Why should we function absolutely right from time to time?

The assumption is that various brain functions are encoded and transmitted to their end organs by specific neuronal circuits. For example, if I want to wiggle my right thumb, the encoding of that action propogates through a specific "circuit". My prefrontal cortex initiates the will and a plan to wiggle my thumb, which is then propagated to my premotor cortex, which then sends signals to my basal ganglia, which then coordinates the sequence of movements to wiggle my thumb, which then sends signals to my primary left motor cortex. Signals from my left primary motor cortex then descends down through my left corona radiata fibers through my left internal capsule to my brainstem. From here, motor fibers carrying those signals cross the midline, at the bottom my brainstem (caudal medulla) to descend down through the right corticospinal tract of my spinal cord. These fibers then synapse with alpha-motor neurons of my peripheral nerves, which exit from my spinal cord, travel through my right brachial plexus in my shoulder and down to the neuromuscular junctions of the muscles of my right thumb, to convey those signals to my thumb, causing it to wiggle. This completes that "circuit" of neuronal connections to perform that function. If one segment of that "circuit" is broken, then theoretically, the ability to perform that function is lost.

So then why do many of us who are experiencing symptoms that are attributed to serotonin deficiency experience a fluctuation in our symptoms and an improvement after medication, if we have truly destroyed serotonin neurons and effectively broken the "circuit" involved in those functions? Why did my memory improve after tianeptine? Why does my dizziness still come and go? If I have destroyed, certain serotonin neurons involved in the circuits for memory storage and retreival and those that control dizziness, shouldn't those functions be persistently impaired without fluctation or improvement after medications that may increase serotonin?

We know that serotonin neurons derive from the dorsal and median raphe nuclei in the brainstem, and then ascend through the subcortical white matter, to innervate various cortical and subcortical structures. However, what if these ascending neurons from the brainstem are not intrinscially involved in the circuit designated for a specific function, but serve to modulate that circuit and control its functioning extrinsically? This led ScaredFirstTimer and I to come up with the following postulates:

1. The ascending serotonin neurons from the brainstem seem to extrinsically modulate various circuits embedded in cortical/subcortical tissue, rather than intrinsically be a part of those circuits.
2. The ability of population of serotonin fibers assigned to a specific circuit to modulate that circuit is based not necessarily on the number of fibers, but on the net serotonin outflow from those fibers to their assigned circuit.
3. This system is highly redundant, so that the loss of some fibers assigned to a circuit does not necessarily mean the loss of the ability to modulate their respective circuit because the remaining fibers still produce enough serotonin outflow to control the circuit.

These postulates led to the following model that may explain why we experience these transient fluctuations:

Suppose we have a circuit in our brain that is assigned to a specific neurologic function (for example, memory retrieval to our consciousness). Now suppose we have 100 serotonin fibers ascending from the brainstem assigned to specifically modulate this circuit. Lets say due to environmental and biologic factors, there is an 80% chance that each of these fibers are functioning at normal capacity at any given time. So on average, 80 of these 100 fibers are working normally.

Then lets say you need at least the equilavent serotonin outflow of 35 working fibers to properly modulate that circuit. Suppose then, after an MDMA neurotoxic event, you only have 40 remaining fibers left assigned to that circuit. If each of these remaining fibers have an 80% chance of functioning at normal capacity as we defined above, then on average 32 out of those 40 fibers are working normally, which is less than the requisite 35 fibers. So on an average day, that circuit is not modulated properly and the respective function is impaired.

However, lets say on a on a good day at least 35 of those fibers are firing normally. The chance of a "good day" in this scenario is 658008*(0.8^35 * 0.2^5) + 91390*(0.8^36 * 0.2^4) + 9880*(0.8^37 * 0.2^3) + 780*(0.8^38 * 0.2^2) + 40*(0.8^39 * 0.2) + (0.8^40) = approximately 16%. Conversely, the chance of a bad day would be 84%.

Now based on postulates 2 and 3, if we can increase the serotonin outflow from the remaining fibers so that outflow is greater than the equivalent outflow of 35 fibers firing normally, then the ability of the remaning fibers to modulate their assigned circuit would be retained. This would explain why agents that can increase serotonin outflow such as SSRIs can cause an improvement of the modulation of that circuit, resulting in an improved neurologic function corresponding to that circuit.

This model would also explain why some people are resistant to SSRI's, etc. If the loss of serotonin fibers due to MDMA is too high, then no matter how much you boost the serotonin outflow of the remaining fibers, it is not enough to meet the requisite outflow of the equivalent of 35 normally functioning fibers. Hence, you may find yourself in a situation like some LTC sufferers such as bben where any and all medications do not seem to work, whereas in others, such as Ro4eva, they do seem to work.

Finally, if we prescribe to the basic principle of traumatic brain injury, that the potential for recovery is based on age, extent of damage, and one's biologic predisposition to neuroplasticity and neurogenesis, then the greater the extent of damage (greater loss of serotonin fibers assigned to a specific circuit), the less likely it would be to have a functional recovery over one's lifetime. This would explain the relatively expeditious recovery of people likely Dawglaw, and persisent deficits seen in people like bben or Shambha.

Again, this is just a theoretical model. But it is a model that could explain fluctuations in symptoms, response to medications, and the ability for some to recover but not others, in the setting of serotonin fiber neurotoxicity and cell loss.
 
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for me one option of this whole LTC is that there is no LTC. that we all have gotten depersonalization disorder because our brain could not handle the trip.
this illness has a lot of symptoms all we have to handle: problem concentrating, brain fog, no positive feelings, anxiety, sleeping problems, tiredness, nervousness, dizzyness,...
people can get this from smoking pot or having a panic attack. so in my opinion this is our "illness". if i read in the forums of dp sufferer every symptom is totally the same.
what do you think.
 
In my opinon, these LTCs have nothing to do with trauma or PTSD or anything like that. No good dr would give a PTSD diagnosis for a long term comedown. You might get a GAD or OCD diagnosis but not PTSD. If it was real PTSD, then people wouldn't have any recovery stories. PTSD is a lifelong disorder and has nightmares/flashbacks/etc which are not standard LTC symptoms. No need to scare people on here by propagating the idea that this is some kind of PTSD which is a very extreme term. There isn't even any kind of bad trip--the high can be amazing and you can still end up with LTC.

The reason the symptoms change in intensity is likely related to a dysregulated HPA axis and cortisol biorhythm. This is why people tend to feel better at night. There is testing available and it seems like the best is given by http://www.precisionhormones.com/. Psychiatric medication is supposed to help "reset" this axis which is why it takes weeks to see effects. This stuff is also known as adrenal fatigue but that is not a recognized diagnosis--better to describe it as HPA axis dysregulation. Incidentally, this dysregulation also relates to neurotransmitter dysfunction. The HPA axis theory also explains why people get a comedown weeks later after MDMA. My dr said some people who do it get a more sensitized physiology in the weeks after even if they recovery initially and its not anything close to PTSD at all. You need to do everything possible to optimize your HPA axis function. Unfortunately, its very difficult finding good physicians who know all this and you will need to look primarily for a psychoneuroendocrinologist.

There is too much focus on the serotonin theory on here but that would not explain why a 1 time use can cause it or how there can be a delayed onset. The HPA axis theory on the other hand is more solid.
 
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