Long term bad effects 20 years of use .....a cautionary tale

[happygirl29]

I started taking MDMA on a regular basis from about 1992 in the early rave scene in South Africa. The pills were really strong and we rolled most weekends.(8 pills a weekend) I carried on doing this for about 5 years consuming higher and higher quantities until they did not really work anymore and then switched to a combination of LSD/2CB until I decided to come to the UK. I did a few pills in about 1997 , they did not really do much so I then decided to pack it in altogether. I went drug free and lived a really healthy lifestyle . In 2010 I went to a festival and dropped one pill and flew , just a treat had one more which worked a treat and that was it for the year. 2011 I went to another festival . I took a capsule(untested) which I thought was mdma and had a 12 hour trip from hell. I had never had such a bad experience. I vomited , lost bladder control, was shaking like a leaf, was overheating badly(my friend was covering me with ice) I was hallucinating slightly but my physical symptoms were horrendous , My body felt on fire. This continued for almost 12 hours after which I slept for another 12. Following this I had panic attacks , anxiety and lots of other symptoms for about 8 months. I did not do anything for another year and then tried a pill(tested good mdma content) which did not work at all. I had terrible symptoms for months after, anxiety, flashing lights, blurred vision, tinnitus,electric zaps, numb hands and feet , vertigo and became sensitive to every type of medication , supplement , alcohol, weed...everything. I then took mdma again (2 pills tested) about a year after that and it worked fine, no after effects. I then though I was ok and did again about 6 months later , terrible effects during and after , also tested so good pills, I then tried again about a year later , felt awful and had bad effects for months. Some people do not learn fast...I am one of those. I now have a lot of problems years later and have discovered that I probably have brain damage in my hypothalamus as I now have thyroid and adrenal issues and cannot tolerate the medications very well .I believe as one gets older the damage from MDMA overuse comes out and bites you in the arse.

 

[ADubbs]

Wow.... Pretty crazy story. I hope you recover fully, or seems you know what to do to go that along. I had a very similar reaction to yours.... Shaking, vomiting, overheating.... Still dealing with it 6 months later as I didn't listen to my body and did more drugs (weed, alcohol).

 

[happygirl29]

ADubbs thanks for your kind words. I have found one supplement which really seems to help which is Enerphos which bangs down the adrenalin response if you take something you shouldn't...it just calms it all down ..stops the shaking and all that stuff .. also activated charcoal gets the stuff out of the system faster and is cheap and harmless. I found stuff like 5HTP made things a whole lot worse. I have decided to buy myself a cranial electric stimulator which apparently stimulates parts of the brain that the MDMA mashes (hypothalamus) It is a drug free way of maybe fixing the problem , fingers crossed it works. I will let you know. I think anything that the brain reckons is toxic will set us off on a wobbly. I hope you are ok now .

 

[ADubbs]

Great tips, i agree with a lot of what you ar saying, thanks for the info. Yes 5HTP has thrown some people off on this forum as well. Personally I tried 50mg of it during the initial weeks of my LTC one time, and it didn't seem to have much effect.

I'm laughing typing this as I had (and still do) many of the same physical symptoms as you. For me at this point it's almost 100% physical issues... Jerking/twitching of muscles, zaps when falling asleep, insomnia, tingling face and scalp, flashing lights etc. Etc. I'm better than I was but still far from out if the woods.

Stay safe and sober! Cheers.

 

[JBrandon]

To be fair, hypothyroidism commonly presents in women when they hit middle-age. But yes, the older I get, the more long-term damage seems to accrue from any of the drugs I do. Hope you feel better OP

 

[Jabberwocky]

I started taking MDMA on a regular basis from about 1992 in the early rave scene in South Africa. The pills were really strong and we rolled most weekends.(8 pills a weekend) I carried on doing this for about 5 years consuming higher and higher quantities until they did not really work anymore and then switched to a combination of LSD/2CB until I decided to come to the UK. I did a few pills in about 1997 , they did not really do much so I then decided to pack it in altogether. I went drug free and lived a really healthy lifestyle . In 2010 I went to a festival and dropped one pill and flew , just a treat had one more which worked a treat and that was it for the year. 2011 I went to another festival . I took a capsule(untested) which I thought was mdma and had a 12 hour trip from hell. I had never had such a bad experience. I vomited , lost bladder control, was shaking like a leaf, was overheating badly(my friend was covering me with ice) I was hallucinating slightly but my physical symptoms were horrendous , My body felt on fire. This continued for almost 12 hours after which I slept for another 12. Following this I had panic attacks , anxiety and lots of other symptoms for about 8 months. I did not do anything for another year and then tried a pill(tested good mdma content) which did not work at all. I had terrible symptoms for months after, anxiety, flashing lights, blurred vision, tinnitus,electric zaps, numb hands and feet , vertigo and became sensitive to every type of medication , supplement , alcohol, weed...everything. I then took mdma again (2 pills tested) about a year after that and it worked fine, no after effects. I then though I was ok and did again about 6 months later , terrible effects during and after , also tested so good pills, I then tried again about a year later , felt awful and had bad effects for months. Some people do not learn fast...I am one of those. I now have a lot of problems years later and have discovered that I probably have brain damage in my hypothalamus as I now have thyroid and adrenal issues and cannot tolerate the medications very well .I believe as one gets older the damage from MDMA overuse comes out and bites you in the arse.

1. you can't test for MDMA content -- blackness, purpleness, whatever -- cannot and does not equate to content or purity in any way -- if someone tells you that it does -- they are mistaken -- or lying

2. unless you tested with multiple reagents, black/purple could be a load of things that are not MDMA -- and some reagents will not react to many of the worst adulterants (like PMA, piperazines, and the cathinones)

3. It is highly unlikely you suffered any brain damage -- i mean like -- its pretty damn sure you didn't, all that bullshit on the other thread about hyper-innervation -- yeah none of that has been actually shown to have happened in MDMA users, rodents injected in their brain with the equivalent of 8-10 pills 4 times a day for a week - sure, but not humans

In fact, the opposite is kind of true -- users that have taken thousands of doses have been found to have lower SERT activity in the pre-frontal --but have also been found to have been more well adjusted than controls.

4. 40 is in the rear view mirror, been having fun since a few years after you started, thousands of experiments, if i had to calculate to total dose I'd have to say at least 250-300 grams MDMA , 20-30 grams cathinones, 20 grams APBs - 10-20 grams of whatever the fuck that was and a bunch of assorted goodies

that might be lowballing it -- I have it on good authority that during one 5-day binge (that I actually remember an astoundingly significant amount of) - intake exceeded 5 grams

honestly, I have NEVER lost the magic, and I don't feel any difference between then and now re: effects

 

[LucidSDreamr]

^ thats great for you...but heavy use has ruined many people's lives and suggesting that it can't happen is quite reckless IMHO. The brain is pretty complicated. Just because it isn't published in a journal somewhere how heavy recreational use can hurt a human doesn't mean it isn't happening

I personally get shitty effects if I roll more than two days in a row no matter how much i take the 3rd day

 

[Jabberwocky]

^ thats great for you...but heavy use has ruined many people's lives and suggesting that it can't happen is quite reckless IMHO. The brain is pretty complicated. Just because it isn't published in a journal somewhere how heavy recreational use can hurt a human doesn't mean it isn't happening

I personally get shitty effects if I roll more than two days in a row no matter how much i take the 3rd day

The OP clearly had no issues for decades (heavy use 1992-1997) (abstinence 1997-2010) per her own testimony.

Had a great experience in 2010

Then took 3 pills in 2011 -- one of which was DEFINITIVELY NOT MDMA (mdma does not cause a 12 hour trip including loss of bladder control)

She did NOT get brain damage from 3 pills, and clearly had no issues from the heavy use in the 1990s

Without knowing the OP, I can only surmise that some events led her to return to the escape offered by rolling at festivals. [stress, mood disorder, ...]

Laying her current discomfort at the feet of brain damage that was not in evidence for decades, is honestly ridiculous.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

all that bullshit on the other thread about hyper-innervation -- yeah none of that has been actually shown to have happened in MDMA users, rodents injected in their brain with the equivalent of 8-10 pills 4 times a day for a week - sure, but not humans

In fact, the opposite is kind of true -- users that have taken thousands of doses have been found to have lower SERT activity in the pre-frontal --but have also been found to have been more well adjusted than controls.

Just to clarify, the denervation and reinnervation patterns of serotonin projections have been examined with non-human primates as well and the findings are very similar to what they found in rats.

In addition, upregulated 5-HT2A has been found in the cortex of abstinent female MDMA users, and this might be a better surrogate marker for MDMA induced serotonergic dysfunction rather than SERT expression.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Laying her current discomfort at the feet of brain damage that was not in evidence for decades, is honestly ridiculous.

There are probably many conditions for which the biology is brewing for years but the symptoms are fairly absent (or not revealed unless probed with careful objective testing) until a critical mass is reached. Her prior MDMA use could have altered her serotonin system until she was vulnerable to serotonergic dysfunction from a particular adulterant.

That is to say that she may not have had brain zaps etc. from the adulterated pill had she not used MDMA in the years prior, regardless of whether or not she had any lingering effects from the MDMA that she was conscious of (and I don't think we've explicitly heard whether or not she was conscious of any changes with her early MDMA use).

 

[Jabberwocky]

Just to clarify, the denervation and reinnervation patterns of serotonin projections have been examined with non-human primates as well and the findings are very similar to what they found in rats.

In addition, upregulated 5-HT2A has been found in the cortex of abstinent female MDMA users, and this might be a better surrogate marker for MDMA induced serotonergic dysfunction rather than SERT expression.

1. Cite the study that shows hyper-innervation, so we can all see the ridiculous dosage administered intrathecally, or parenterally. It's on the order of 10mg/kg 4 times daily for 5 days -- which is equivalent to 32 pills a day for 5 days, and don't give me the interspecies scaling BS -- they INJECTED MDMA into the spinal theca == which is tyhe same as direct injection into the brain, without having to drill into the skull


2. Define upregulation: is it SERT? or is it receptor density (careful, you can't prove the latter without biopsy, and even then it is difficult)


3. Cite the human study, so we can see just EXACTLY what the actually data shows. I can't wait for people to read the section where the study authors conceed that MDMA users were more well adjusted than controls. Or that we can be illuminated that a sample size of 8 or even 15 is SOMEHOW representative. And lastly, how there is no actual statistically significant sample of NORMAL human 5HT2A activity to develop a true representative mean and SD of serotonergic activity in humans.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

1. Cite the study that shows hyper-innervation, so we can all see the ridiculous dosage administered intrathecally, or parenterally. It's on the order of 10mg/kg 4 times daily for 5 days -- which is equivalent to 32 pills a day for 5 days, and don't give me the interspecies scaling BS -- they INJECTED MDMA into the spinal theca == which is tyhe same as direct injection into the brain, without having to drill into the skull

I already know you're going to say "Ricaurte" etc., but here is one study that took measurements at 2 weeks post MDMA and 7 years post MDMA.
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/19/12/5096 - "MDMA hydrochloride, dissolved in a sterile 0.9% sodium chloride solution, was injected subcutaneously at a dose of 5 mg/kg twice daily (9 A.M. and 5 P.M.) for 4 consecutive days."

So instead of 10mg/kg they used 5mg/kg, instead of 4 times daily for 5 days they dosed 2 times daily for 4 days, and they did it subcutaneously as opposed to intrathecally.

This was in squirrel monkeys. Also I should point out that direct injection of MDMA into the brain really doesn't produce widespread neurotoxicity in animals very well.

2. Define upregulation: is it SERT? or is it receptor density (careful, you can't prove the latter without biopsy, and even then it is difficult)

I'm referring to two SPECT studies that examined 5-HT2A radioligand binding.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3538835/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11850153

Higher 5-HT2A levels were found particularly in the occipital cortex, and increased excitability of visual cortex has also been noted in abstinent MDMA users with BOLD imaging but only in the heaviest MDMA users (mild and moderate users were normal).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3079831/

I know you are going to argue that there could have been pre-existing differences and that the sample size is small, but it is another study to consider. In general these studies are finding that total lifetime use is the biggest predictor of abnormalities, and in some instances that has been separated from frequency of use (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11579003/) which suggests that the differences between MDMA users and controls are not due to self-medication etc.

3. Cite the human study, so we can see just EXACTLY what the actually data shows. I can't wait for people to read the section where the study authors conceed that MDMA users were more well adjusted than controls. Or that we can be illuminated that a sample size of 8 or even 15 is SOMEHOW representative. And lastly, how there is no actual statistically significant sample of NORMAL human 5HT2A activity to develop a true representative mean and SD of serotonergic activity in humans.

I'm not too sure about doing a SPECT study with 300 people. I think we might have to make do with less for now, and just interpret the data with caution.

In the interest of full disclosure, I should say that I don't think there were any anxiety/depression differences between MDMA users and controls in the 5-HT2A upregulation studies, but that wasn't the point of the study.

 

[Londonscouser]

Cotcha > shugenja

 

[Jabberwocky]

I already know you're going to say "Ricaurte" etc., but here is one study that took measurements at 2 weeks post MDMA and 7 years post MDMA.
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/19/12/5096 - "MDMA hydrochloride, dissolved in a sterile 0.9% sodium chloride solution, was injected subcutaneously at a dose of 5 mg/kg twice daily (9 A.M. and 5 P.M.) for 4 consecutive days."

So instead of 10mg/kg they used 5mg/kg, instead of 4 times daily for 5 days they dosed 2 times daily for 4 days, and they did it subcutaneously as opposed to intrathecally.

This was in squirrel monkeys
Also I should point out that direct injection of MDMA into the brain really doesn't produce widespread neurotoxicity in animals very well.

OK, 10 pills a day for 4 consecutive days -- still ridiculous

I'm referring to two SPECT studies that examined 5-HT2A radioligand binding.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3538835/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11850153

The Mean values for the MDMA users was within 2 Standard deviations of the Mean of the control group, meaning they could easily come from each group

Higher 5-HT2A levels were found particularly in the occipital cortex, and increased excitability of visual cortex has also been noted in abstinent MDMA users with BOLD imaging but only in the heaviest MDMA users (mild and moderate users were normal).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3079831/

"Signal intensity by brain region and group. Plot of individual signal intensity values by group shows the degree of overlap between the control and 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) groups. As shown in Table 2, mean signal intensity did not differ by group. "

"Spatial extent of activation by brain region and group. Plot of individual spatial extent of activation by group shows the degree of overlap between the Control and 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) groups. As shown in Table 2, mean spatial extent of activation did not differ by group."

I know you are going to argue that there could have been pre-existing differences and that the sample size is small, but it is another study to consider. In general these studies are finding that total lifetime use is the biggest predictor of abnormalities, and in some instances that has been separated from frequency of use (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11579003/) which suggests that the differences between MDMA users and controls are not due to self-medication etc.



I'm not too sure about doing a SPECT study with 300 people. I think we might have to make do with less for now, and just interpret the data with caution.

In the interest of full disclosure, I should say that I don't think there were any anxiety/depression differences between MDMA users and controls in the 5-HT2A upregulation studies, but that wasn't the point of the study.

Again, the studies you cite show no mean difference, or differences within 2 Standard deviations with a sample of 10 vs a sample of 15 -- that means statistically they come from the same distribution

 

[Jabberwocky]

Cotcha > shugenja

Either you didn't read the cited studies, or don't understand the data presented.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

OK, 10 pills a day for 4 consecutive days -- still ridiculous

To simulate years of weekly abuse in adolescents I don't think that's too bad. I found myself doing 10 pill binges when I was 14-15, and many youngsters are combining ecstasy with other drugs and/or not sleeping for a few days straight. Yes that is a ridiculous amount, but when people equate MDMA induced serotonergic neurotoxicity to cannabis induced reefer madness, a young and invincible kid feels that they have carte blanche to use however much they want similar to how they would use cannabis.

I'm not trying to freak out people who have already abused MDMA for years and have adverse effects, but rather I'm trying to shift us away from this "MDMA is a perfect drug" mentality that could be causing harm in the unsuspecting, which could be a significant root cause of the suffering of the same people I try not to freak out with talking about serotonergic neurotoxicity.

The Mean values for the MDMA users was within 2 Standard deviations of the Mean of the control group, meaning they could easily come from each group

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3538835/ -
"MDMA users had increased 5-HT_2ABP_ND in occipital-parietal (19.7%), temporal (20.5%), occipito-temporal-parietal (18.3%), frontal (16.6%), and fronto-parietal (18.5%) regions" - Seems significant to me... An average of almost 20% increased 5-HT2A non displaceable binding potential in some regions certainly isn't nothing.

See below for example, the findings that increased cortical excitability only really applied to the heaviest MDMA abusers (a caveat I tried to make apparent). If a "heavy" abuser is only some fraction of people in the MDMA arm they won't be very well represented. You may argue that there are populations that aren't being well represented in the drug naïve controls when it comes to these smaller studies as well as heavy MDMA abusers not being well represented, but the fact remains that there are differences in 5-HT2A when averaging these groups of subjects as is, and unless evidence shows otherwise I would work under the assumption that there would only be a widening gap if you did a larger study with drug naïve users and only heavy MDMA abusers.

"Signal intensity by brain region and group. Plot of individual signal intensity values by group shows the degree of overlap between the control and 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) groups. As shown in Table 2, mean signal intensity did not differ by group. "

"Spatial extent of activation by brain region and group. Plot of individual spatial extent of activation by group shows the degree of overlap between the Control and 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) groups. As shown in Table 2, mean spatial extent of activation did not differ by group."

Thank you for enlarging that font for me, I couldn't see it from low earth orbit before

My caveat for that particular study was very specifically "mild and moderate users were normal" - To quote the authors "There were no between-group differences in brain activation in any region, but the heaviest MDMA users showed a significantly greater spatial extent of activation than controls in BA 17 (p=0.031) and BA 18 (p=0.049)."

"we conducted a subgroup analysis using a median split procedure to divide the MDMA user group into high- and low-exposure groups" ~ "This analysis revealed that the high-exposure MDMA group had significantly greater spatial extent of activation when compared with the control group, but there were no significant between-group differences in signal intensity (Table 3)."

Normally 5-HT1A receptors at the axon hillock impede the spread of lateral excitation. - the spatial extent of activation could be very important to note.

 

[Innerpeace]

1. you can't test for MDMA content -- blackness, purpleness, whatever -- cannot and does not equate to content or purity in any way -- if someone tells you that it does -- they are mistaken -- or lying

2. unless you tested with multiple reagents, black/purple could be a load of things that are not MDMA -- and some reagents will not react to many of the worst adulterants (like PMA, piperazines, and the cathinones)

3. It is highly unlikely you suffered any brain damage -- i mean like -- its pretty damn sure you didn't, all that bullshit on the other thread about hyper-innervation -- yeah none of that has been actually shown to have happened in MDMA users, rodents injected in their brain with the equivalent of 8-10 pills 4 times a day for a week - sure, but not humans

In fact, the opposite is kind of true -- users that have taken thousands of doses have been found to have lower SERT activity in the pre-frontal --but have also been found to have been more well adjusted than controls.

4. 40 is in the rear view mirror, been having fun since a few years after you started, thousands of experiments, if i had to calculate to total dose I'd have to say at least 250-300 grams MDMA , 20-30 grams cathinones, 20 grams APBs - 10-20 grams of whatever the fuck that was and a bunch of assorted goodies

that might be lowballing it -- I have it on good authority that during one 5-day binge (that I actually remember an astoundingly significant amount of) - intake exceeded 5 grams

honestly, I have NEVER lost the magic, and I don't feel any difference between then and now re: effects

agreed on black purple not being mdma.

My experience is I did ecstacy pills for six months about thirty times and lost the magic. Quit for thirteen years. Tested a batch of 5 mapb turned instant black smoke, and had some of the worst side effects,...tremors, passing out, dizzinesss, brain zaps, for a full week afterwards I used 5-htp which I think made it worse, so ill never take 5-htp after rolling, ever!!!!

once a person has serotonin syndrome or whatever the %$%^ it was things change. On a new batch you do an initial test, as you should always do, and the first time you start low dosed. After you know batch is good you an go up, and every batch differs, some stuff is stronger , some too strong, some is weaker and some too weak, some of pure poison

 

[JBrandon]

I love the studies cited here and the on-going discussion.

Shugenja, I appreciate your posts - genuinely. In this thread and in many others, especially including the "What is wrong with MDMA today" thread. So please don't misinterpret the following as an attack - it's just my opinion.

In these threads, I read a sort of confrontational and almost dogmatic tone in your posts, and for me that kind of undercuts the value of your arguments. It implies to me an inflexible viewpoint on these topics. Even the most well-educated of us can be proven wrong with time and further research. Anyway, just my two cents.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I love the studies cited here and the on-going discussion.

Shugenja, I appreciate your posts - genuinely. In this thread and in many others, especially including the "What is wrong with MDMA today" thread. So please don't misinterpret the following as an attack - it's just my opinion.

In these threads, I read a sort of confrontational and almost dogmatic tone in your posts, and for me that kind of undercuts the value of your arguments. It implies to me an inflexible viewpoint on these topics. Even the most well-educated of us can be proven wrong with time and further research. Anyway, just my two cents.

Understood.

Howeve, inflexibility is a good thing when false memes are constantly brought up.

For example: "it's because you don't have any serotonin and it takes a month to recover" - BS -- tissue serotonin levels in the brain (synaptic vesicle, you know the important place where it is released from) recove by 48 hours at the latest.


Furthermore, re: whats wrong with MDMA -- i have stated before that there may actually be enantiomerically pure or non-50/50 MDMA, it just doesn't come from some fantastical unknown enantomerically poisoned synth,

What is more likely? there is some kind of unknown synthesis that created non-racemic MDMA?

Or -- r-MDMA was made (starting with MDA is a very simple synth that uses THF, formic acid and LAH - and would yield r-MDMA) using r-MDA (which has a known published synth),

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Howeve, inflexibility is a good thing when false memes are constantly brought up.

I wouldn't label something a "false meme" if the evidence isn't conclusive either way, its probably best for people to be careful and take it easy with ecstasy for the time being. Remaining skeptic isn't very harmful in this position while promoting frequent use of MDMA could be harmful.

For example: "it's because you don't have any serotonin and it takes a month to recover" - BS -- tissue serotonin levels in the brain (synaptic vesicle, you know the important place where it is released from) recove by 48 hours at the latest.

The vesicular, cytosolic and synaptic concentrations of serotonin are not the only factors to consider if your concern is the ability to do repeated MDMA without risk of side effects, it would be imperative to consider the receptors themselves... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11850153 "In recent MDMA users, post-synaptic 5-HT(2A) receptor densities were significantly lower in all cortical areas studied, while 5-HT(2A) receptor densities were significantly higher in the occipital cortex of ex-MDMA users."

May I remind us that this is a harm reduction website, not a blatantly pro-drug website. I've heard a lot of stuff from you that could sway people into thinking they can use ecstasy all they want without risk. That's great that E hasn't affected you yet (although we of course don't have any objective measurements) but the world is a big place with lots of variation from person to person. I worry in particular about people with a predisposition to developing neurodegenerative disease and mental illness using too much MDMA, and you could be neither of those categories, therefore not representative of the populations that I'm voicing my concerns for.