• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Lithium orotate

mulberryman said:
This is interesting, this guy says that small amounts of lithium are actually essential to brain health, and low doses of lithium salts can help prevent the aging of brain cells.

The Misunderstood Mineral Part 1


Yea there's a homeless guy around here we call the mineral guy. He says plants talk to minerals and therefore, as the big ass sign on the back of his bike says, "VEGETARIANS KNOW MINERALS". I would trust both of their medical advice equally.
 
Well, I never knew any homeless guys with an MD before, nut if you read the article, you'd see that he's talking about studies showing benefit from dosages of 10-20mg or less lithium salts, instead of the hundreds of miligrams used to treat bipolar disorder and such. And there's no guarantee that we're alwayts going to be enough lithium in our diets, a supplement of 5 or 10 mg is probably well below the amount to seriosly harm blood chemistry.

In any case, these Serenity pills I got a free (plus shipping) sample of 90 pills (90! 8o) are 320mg. I am breaking them into fourths and plan on taking one quarter tablet every Sunday night, and shall report if there's any benefit or problems...

..and oh yeah, the second part to that article, where Dr.Wright goes on to show how some areas in TX with higher lithium levels in their drinking water, had lower crime rates, and how it can be used to treat alcoholism, and other disorders.
The Misunderstood Mineral Part 2
 
Sorry for bumping a 3 year old thread, usually frowned upon most forums, but then again, so is creating a new thread when a current one exists.

Have there been any updates regarding the use of Lithium Orotate?

My mother ordered this for me to try and hopefully even out my bipolar crazies, but there is not a lot of information regarding it.

The idea of risking frying my kidneys doesn't really turn me on.

Thanks for any info.
 
Ham-milton if you had read I specifically mentioned how I took lithium with food and that's when I threw up.

You're probably against the use of anabolic steroids, growth hormone, nootropics, IV drug use, etc. too?

Me personally, I like to have fun with my body and brain.
As do I, but self medication with lithium is neither fun nor safe. Even under medical supervision it has largely been abandoned. IMO, lithium should be reserved for the reduction of psuedoephedrine, not consumption by humans.

Before anyone bothers to point is out, yes, I realize that lithium pills are not used for making meth.

My point about self medication with lithium still stands.
 
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Sorry for bumping a 3 year old thread, usually frowned upon most forums, but then again, so is creating a new thread when a current one exists.

Have there been any updates regarding the use of Lithium Orotate?

My mother ordered this for me to try and hopefully even out my bipolar crazies, but there is not a lot of information regarding it.

The idea of risking frying my kidneys doesn't really turn me on.

Thanks for any info.

Is your mum a qualified Dr who can also monitor lithium blood levels? If not consider going to a doctor, this lithium orotate (or mild lithium) is bunk.

Lithium has a narrow window of efficacy (I.e it has to be a MINIMUM and below a MAXIMUM blood level to be effective)

No offensive intended but lithium orotate is one of those completely ridiculous supplements - sold with the intention of LOW dosing but then that itself is pointless and leaves open the possibility of people taking TOO much (+ as above if you reach anywhere near toxic levels or on diuretics or any other number of supplements that interact, have diarhea then a hospital one is heading)
 
Where did you get the idea that there needs to be a 'minimum' blood level for lithium to be 'effective'?
 
However, Advanced Drug Discussion certainly has some members who are so far ahead of your average psychiatrist, pharmacist, or even neurobiologist when it comes to obscure chemical research knowledge.

Sometimes I suspect some of the folks here likely are psychiatrists, pharmacists, or neurobiologists...
 
Where did you get the idea that there needs to be a 'minimum' blood level for lithium to be 'effective'?

The licensed prescribing (based on clinical trials) of lithium for the following conditions recommends a minimum yes. (Conditions which some people on forum/chat boards are claiming to attempt to treat!) Hence why lithium requires therapeutic drug monitoring (TDM) because it has a narrow therapeutic index. (it's EFFECTIVE dose is very close to it's TOXIC dose)

Therapeutic levels:
http://www.merck.com/mmpe/lexicomp/lithium.html#N11A0E3
Therapeutic levels:

Acute mania: 0.6-1.2 mEq/L (SI: 0.6-1.2 mmol/L)

Protection against future episodes in most patients with bipolar disorder: 0.8-1 mEq/L (SI: 0.8-1.0 mmol/L); a higher rate of relapse is described in subjects who are maintained at <0.4 mEq/L (SI: 0.4 mmol/L)

Elderly patients can usually be maintained at lower end of therapeutic range (0.6-0.8 mEq/L)

Of course you get the arguement that microdosing:

Search: lithium levels suicide water on pubmed
1.Even very low but sustained lithium intake can prevent suicide in the general population?
Terao T, Goto S, Inagaki M, Okamoto Y.
Med Hypotheses. 2009 Nov;73(5):811-2. Epub 2009 May 19.
PMID: 19457619 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Related citations

2.Lithium levels in drinking water and risk of suicide.
Ohgami H, Terao T, Shiotsuki I, Ishii N, Iwata N.
Br J Psychiatry. 2009 May;194(5):464-5; discussion 446.
PMID: 19407280 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]Free Article
Related citations

3.A "new-old" way of thinking about brain disorder, cerebral excitability--the fundamental property of nervous tissue.
Saugstad LF.
Med Hypotheses. 2005;64(1):142-50.
PMID: 15533632 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Related citations

4.Lithium in drinking water and the incidences of crimes, suicides, and arrests related to drug addictions.
Schrauzer GN, Shrestha KP.
Biol Trace Elem Res. 1990 May;25(2):105-13.
PMID: 1699579 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

TWO extremes SUICIDE rate (low dose) and bipolar / schizophrenia. (high dose)

Lithium orotate is being sold (and predicted not proved) to be somewhere IN BETWEEN which has extremely limited evidence. I've read posts of people thinking they feel a bit bipolar today (who doesn't sometimes!) so will take a lithium orotate. To be honest the kind of people on bluelight are clever enought to often know what they are doing but one has to remember this is being sold to all manner of people who will take any dose on hearsay alone.

Key Interactions:
Antidepressants, SSRI increased risk of CNS effects when lithium given with SSRIs (lithium toxicity reported)
NSAIDs excretion of lithium reduced by NSAIDs (increased risk of toxicity) INC ibuprofen, naproxen
ACE Inhibitors excretion of lithium reduced by ACE inhibitors (increased plasma concentration)
Acetazolamide excretion of lithium increased by acetazolamide
Amiodarone avoidance of lithium advised by manufacturer of amiodarone (risk of ventricular arrhythmias) Amiodarone has a long half-life; there is a potential for drug interactions to occur for several weeks (or even months) after treatment with it has been stopped
Angiotensin-II Receptor Antagonists excretion of lithium reduced by angiotensin-II receptor antagonists (increased plasma concentration)
Antidepressants, SSRI increased risk of CNS effects when lithium given with SSRIs (lithium toxicity reported)

gup said:
Sometimes I suspect some of the folks here likely are psychiatrists, pharmacists, or neurobiologists...

The above is all publicly available information but one would predict there are many posters who are.
 
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Lithium orotate is also dangerous in that they can't test your blood levels of it due to the way that it goes straight past the BBB and needs no first-pass metabolism.

Lithium aspartate is another form that is being sold as a supplement and you can actually still detect the lithium increase from it - in fact, its the only form of lithium that the vitamin stores will carry (and it appears to only be the Solaray brand) because of the fact that you can't test lithium orotate levels.

With that said, has nobody noticed that "therapeutic" levels of drugs in America are off the charts while RDAs for vitamins and such are ridiculously low? My doctor put me on Celexa - wanted me on 40mg a day to start... I said fuck you, I'm taking 10mg for the first two weeks, then 20mg for another 3 and we'll go from there... well 20 was plenty effective - I hate to think what would have happened had I been given 40 as I had severe issues from the 20 as it were.

As for lithium toxicity, I don't really believe that the orotate has ever shown toxicity. The body can get rid of it much easier than the carbonate form that is commonly prescribed because it breaks down much easier.

They used to sell lithium water back in the day and you never heard of people dying from it - in fact, they used to sell lithium as a form of table salt... They pulled it when they discovered it could be used as a drug, however.
 
This is precisely why lithium is dangerous, not fundamentally but the complete giberish + nonsense that people speak in reference to it

Lithium orotate is also dangerous in that they can't test your blood levels of it due to the way that it goes straight past the BBB and needs no first-pass metabolism.

It is a SALT so will still dissociate from it's non-covalently bound twin (orotate ion). The ONLY difference may be bioavailability from the gut (when taken orally) IT WILL CERTAINLY NOT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE IN DIFFUSING THROUGH THE BBB!! (I don't know the exact bioavailability but if any it will be present as the Lithium ion form) Please read carefully the wiki references (the kind that people misinterpret):

3.^ Smith DF, Schou M (March 1979). "Kidney function and lithium concentrations of rats given an injection of lithium orotate or lithium carbonate". J. Pharm. Pharmacol. 31 (3): 161–3. PMID 34690.
4.^ Kling MA, Manowitz P, Pollack IW . "Rat brain and serum lithium concentrations after acute injections of lithium carbonate and orotate". J. Pharm. Pharmacol. 30 (6): 368–70. PMID 26768.

Lithium aspartate is another form that is being sold as a supplement and you can actually still detect the lithium increase from it - in fact, its the only form of lithium that the vitamin stores will carry (and it appears to only be the Solaray brand) because of the fact that you can't test lithium orotate levels.

really? Got facts and figures to back this statement up with? (I would actually predict aspartate to possibly be more bioavailable, gut instinct - could be wrong but regardless the ACTIVE drug is the LITHIUM ION IN THE BLOOD!)

As for lithium toxicity, I don't really believe that the orotate has ever shown toxicity. The body can get rid of it much easier than the carbonate form that is commonly prescribed because it breaks down much easier.

REALLY?
http://jmt.pennpress.org/strands/jm...6AC4?issue=20070302&file=20070302_061_062.pdf

They used to sell lithium water back in the day and you never heard of people dying from it - in fact, they used to sell lithium as a form of table salt... They pulled it when they discovered it could be used as a drug, however.

I'll bet they pulled it because of abuse issues yeah? (I'm being sarcastic just to confirm!)
 
I would not self medicate with lithium. It would be as bad or maybe worse then self medicating with valproate or carbamazepine. You need to test for blood levels because they can go toxic pretty quick. I have not taken lithium yet and that is mainly because of all the blood tests being inconvienant. My bipolar disorder has certainly been bad enough to try it.
 
I take a pretty high dose of lithium orotate under the supervision of my doctor (qty 10 of the 120 mg pills per day) and he ran a blood test of my lithium levels. It came back undetectable (low). What's this about not being able to test the blood levels of it? If this is true it would explain it. My doctor wasn't worried but maybe I should be (about toxicity in the brain). Another doctor told me she uses lithium carbonate in some people who have disorders that lower the blood level of lithium. If my blood level is "undetectable" does that mean I have a disorder? Some inability to absorb lithium, or I excrete it too fast?
 
I have not tried lithium orotate, but I can report on the disastrous effects a trial of lithium carbonate had on me, personally. I had received an ECT consult for treatment-resistant unipolar depression, and the doctor noted that even though there wasn't any reason to suspect bipolar, I hadn't ever really been treated as if I had a bipolar-spectrum illness with the exception of lamictal, and thought that a lithium trial might be warranted. Around the same time, I also went on Cytomel, which is a thyroid drug, to try to augment the antidepressant I was taking, even though I have normal thyroid function.

First, I couldn't keep lithium down, especially in the morning (I took it at night). I would wake up every morning and vomit, even when I was within the therapeutic window according to my bloodwork. Second, my TSH value had been around 2.2 MIU/L or so (normal range: 0.40-4.50). After going on Cytomel (T3), you would have expected my TSH value to drop, but it actually did the opposite because of the lithium, and rose to 6.60, necessitating the addition of more thyroid hormone (T4) just to get my thyroid function back down into the normal range. Third, I lost about 35 pounds as the result of being constantly nauseated, and my hair fell out. My creatinine also rose to higher than normal levels. I had to take daily medication for constipation, even though this had never been an issue for me before. My skin looked terrible and it made me really prone to acne, and my skin tone changed to kind of a gray/green pallor. Anybody walking down the street could have told that I was extremely ill. People told me that they could "smell" the lithium on me escaping from my skin pores, like you can smell alcohol on the skin of alcoholics. It changed my sense of smell and taste, there was a constant metallic taste in my mouth, and my favorite foods suddenly were abhorrent to me and I switched to eating and drinking entirely different foods. All of this was happening largely while I was within the "therapeutic window," according to my bloodwork. Luckily, all the above symptoms (including the high TSH and creatinine values) eventually returned to normal after discontinuing the drug.

In my opinion, lithium is a disgusting drug that happens to work amazingly well for some people, most of whom are bipolar. However, I have never met a person who enjoyed taking lithium, and I think that medication adherence is a huge problem because of the side effects, even in those who respond well to it. It is enormously toxic if your blood concentration rises too high, which is easy to do if you're vomiting and dehydrated. I would argue that it's pretty toxic even at therapeutic doses, and seems to eventually damage your kidneys with long-term use at therapeutic levels. If you don't have the means to have regular bloodwork performed (lithium levels, but also kidney/liver/thyroid function), I would stay far away from any lithium salt, even at smaller doses. It has the potential to do a lot of harm if not monitored closely, and the orotate version doesn't seem to have enough research behind it to know for sure what you're dealing with.

If you really want to try lithium, I would recommend sucking it up and paying a doctor to do a 6-week trial on lithium carbonate and pony up the cash for the doctor's visits and bloodwork. The drug itself is cheap, fortunately.
 
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Thanks, arctica. Yes, I've going to cut way back on the lithium orotate and be more careful in the future. Or I might switch to lithium carbonate on the premise that it's better tested and understood.
 
I take lithium orotate all the time, and I'm really sensitive to stuff. The most I've taken in one day is probably 15 pills @ 10 mg each, so 150 mg of lithium orotate. I was told by a dr. I can take a few hundred and I'd be fine. But at 100 mg my head was numb and tingly and I was just fineeeee. It def works as a mood stabilizer

I have bp disorder
 
After reading the countless glowing reviews on Amazon and doing some independent research I bought some lithium orotate, mostly for a friend suffering from BPD, but I also decided to try some myself as it appeared to be helpful for mood related issues I've been dealing with.

I did find it helped keep my mood stable, but I had to stop taking it after an adverse reaction leading to hospitalization. My friend also ended up flushing her bottle after a less severe adverse interaction with cannabis.

As I'm sure many people are aware, lithium is a big no-no with psychedelics and possibly other substances. and while the dosages of lithium orotate are far lower than the standard lithium carbonate (5mg vs. ~150+mg), I think the same warnings about interactions should be heeded.

Many of the same people who are attracted to psychedelics and other "recreational drugs" for personal exploration and healing would could be drawn to the potential of the supplement, so I'm just putting this out there to proceed with caution, if at all.

Giving a few days between the last dosage of lithium orotate and other drugs (especially those affecting serotonin like the classic psychedelics, methoxetamine, DXM, or MDx) would be a good idea from a harm reduction standpoint. Cannabis also wasn't a good mix for me.

As it turned out Health Canada had banned the sale of lithium orotate a few months before (I had to get mine from the US) which I thought was another paternalistic overreach which they are known for, but perhaps the reasons were valid this time. ;)
 
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