Let's go gardening

[dalpat077]

In my never ending and relentless quest to become a productive member of society and aid my fellow man I was thinking that maybe looking into the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis could be a noble cause!

Please will my favorite chemist(s) here take a look at the paper below and tell me what you think.

Of course I'm concerned about the unwanted extraction of certain alkaloids. This being said and of particular interest in the paper is the following:

"Interestingly, E.emarginatum contained high levels of methylecgonine, compared to E.coca."

and

"Quantification, however, indicated relatively high concentrations of methylecgonine relative to other species. This is of significance since higher yields will make isolation easier and commercial isolation more profitable than in other species. 1.35 ± 0.063 (SD) mg (R2 value of 0.996) of methylecgonine was found per gram of leaf material in the leaves of E. emarginatum."

There are three obvious questions kind Sirs:

1. Does "high levels (compared to E.coca)" mean MORE than in E.coca or only relative to E.coca?
2. Are we talking a degree in chemistry here to extract and isolate methylecgonine?
3. Assuming not (if this is the answer to the above) are we still concerned with the correct isomer here or would it not matter. By correct I'm assuming (-)methylecgonine is desired?

AcocSA.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[sekio]

Does "high levels (compared to E.coca)" mean MORE than in E.coca or only relative to E.coca?

Both? There is more methylecgonine in E.emarginatum than there is in E.coca.

Are we talking a degree in chemistry here to extract and isolate methylecgonine?

To be safe, yes. You need to know what the fuck you're doing and why.
Realistically, if you can follow instructions (use a dictionary) and have the right equipment, you can do it.

1.35 ± 0.063 (SD) mg (R2 value of 0.996) of methylecgonine was found per gram of leaf material in the leaves of E. emarginatum.

So, next to nothing... 1mg/g is 0.1% so we are looking at a whopping 0.135% yield from E.emarginatum. And that requires you grow this rare species of coca plant... good luck

Assuming not (if this is the answer to the above) are we still concerned with the correct isomer here or would it not matter. By correct I'm assuming (-)methylecgonine is desired?

It would be the natural isomer.

If you want methylecgonidine/methylecgonine, why not make it from (readily available) cocaine?

 

[dalpat077]

If you want methylecgonidine/methylecgonine, why not make it from (readily available) cocaine?

I don't know you well enough to know when you're serious and when you're joking!

That reminds me of a paper floating around here on another thread purporting that an ideal source of pseudoephedrine is crystal meth.! (Still not sure if that paper is a joke in its entirety or if somebody actually did try it i.e. in a sort of "Darwinian Chemistry" fashion). Same as me trying to go from Tropinone to Atropine.

On a serious note though:

As I'm sure doesn't need stating methylecgonine is a hop, skip, and jump away:

"4.15 g of methylecgonine and 5.7 g of benzoic anhydride in 150 ml of dry benzene are gently refluxed for 4 hours taking precaution against H20 in the air (drying tube). Cool in an ice bath, acidify carefully with hydrochloric acid, dry, and evaporate in a vacuum to get a red oil which is treated with a little portion of isopropanoi to precipitate."

If you feel me?

Calling a spade a spade here:

E.emarginatum is grown here no problem and because it doesn't produce the infamous alkaloid I don't see any reason why it couldn't be cultivated en masse (and I have a solution to that) (and no different to the weed growing fraternity). The other plan previously referenced in another thread is, well, let's just say a nightmare. E.novogranatense is grown across Africa (the equatorial regions go figure) and one or two other places close by but offshore. But I don't have the resources required to go round up a bunch of farmers across the African continent and form a co-op (and something which I'm pretty sure the UN would take a dim view of to boot). Not to mention the trouble and strife and infighting going on in most of them. I ain't getting my behind shot off for Coca leaf because some member of a rebel group woke up in a bad mood that's for sure. And no way am I paying some greedy South American hundreds of USD per kg when the farmers themselves are getting around $2 per kg. So the dilemma is obvious.

Besides: obviously the idea is to extract and isolate methylecgonine so that the left over alkaloids can be used for my research into and possible treatment of rheumatoid arthritis (let's never forget that portion)!

 

[sekio]

But I don't have the resources required to go round up a bunch of farmers across the African continent and form a co-op (and something which I'm pretty sure the UN would take a dim view of to boot).

This guy beat you to the punch, I think.

 

[dalpat077]

Alright but that's next level stuff!

If I told you about the similarities (eerily so) between his humble beginnings and background and mine you'd not believe me and would probably think I'm making it up for effect!

I had to read that article three times (and got chills each time I read it for the reason mentioned above).

All I can seriously say though is "wow". Sounds like a piece of work. Then again: odd how people can read the same article and come to different conclusions or form different opinions i.e. that's an instruction manual to me! Only kidding. Absolutely no intention of going that far (not even remotely). Matter of fact it's dudes like that who give this business a bad name!

Besides: as has been noted previously this is nothing more than a means to an end i.e. not looking to make a career out of it. And the government and their nonsense have themselves to blame anyway should anything come of this (should make a great defense in court i.e. it's my constitutional right, apparently, to make a living)!

Anyway and on the bright side though: obviously he's out of the picture now! One less criminal and conman to be concerned about.

 

[dalpat077]

Well let's be honest here i.e. I'm no criminal mastermind. And I cannot claim bragging rights for some of my ideas either.

Fact of the matter is that while very few scams are originated by South Africans themselves: when they are indeed originated on occasion it's usually on a grand scale!

For the laugh of it (although people got nailed probably wouldn't find it funny):

In the 1980's we had a scheme that started here called the "Kubus Scheme". In short (a more detailed explanation on the link below) some dude came up with idea of selling the necessary to the population at large in order for them to start cultivation of "milk yeast cultures" which he would then, supposedly, buy back from them once cultivated. A bit more to it than that of course but that's the gist of it. Now if E.coca or E.novogranatense were not so choosy about where they like to grow: well I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this i.e. half the population growing a few plants in their gardens would yield a fair amount of leaf let's be honest! And it wouldn't be scam either either as I'd gladly pay at least fair market value per kg! However. E.emarginatum is something totally different and doable I think. I'm guessing of course (and I'm not spending weeks looking up legalities) that it'd be just fine to grow as long as there's nothing being extracted by Joe Public (pretty much the same principle where Coca Leaf chewing is fine just as long as no further processing is done i.e. that type of let's split hairs law). But of course: the little issue of extracting and isolating methylecgonine is the apparent flaw in the plan (for now anyway).

In truth: growing weed here on the same basis as detailed above would be just fine. But what are you going to do with it all? Most, if not all, is being used for CBD oil or products (no THC) both for the local market (which is saturated i.e. even J&J have their nose in it and on the shelves) and for export. But to where are you going to export the good stuff (containing THC) legally i.e. it ain't legal in that many places around the world and they all seem to have their own markets going anyway. And of course: not my thing at all so the keenness on my part wouldn't be there! Mind you. I suppose the level of keenness would be in direct proportion to the color and amount of money (profit) involved (although I know I'm actually fooling myself by saying that).

Anyway. A South African classic below.

Kubus scheme - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[dalpat077]

Thinking out of the (amateur) box here.

I've not been able to find anything anywhere about extracting and isolating methylecgonine from E.anything var. anything!

But then I had a thought (always dangerous).

What would happen if you partially followed the traditional procedure (as kindly detailed on my other thread) and then switched over to the synthetic route as described? Wouldn't that do the trick?

In layman's terms:

1. E.emarginatum contains (relatively?) high levels of methylecgonine from the get go right (and assuming I'm right I've a theory about this below)?
2. So perform the usual initial extraction as if you were dealing with E.Coca?
3. The result of the (2) above initial extraction from E.emarginatum should contain methylecgonine not (among all other alkaloids)?
4. Somehow precipitate the methylecgonine out from the (3) above (to a powder)?
5. Then follow the last step as detailed above (4) in post #3 on this thread i.e. "4.15 g of methylecgonine and 5.7 g of benzoic anhydride in 150 ml of dry benzene are gently refluxed..."?

Possible?


Thought on E.emarginatum and methylecgonine:

Obviously I know nothing about genetics. But I cannot help but wonder if the methylecgonine doesn't sort of get "backed up" in the plant because it lacks the (genetic?) ability to go the last step and produce the Cocaine alkaloid?


Come to think of it: why don't I just go the whole hog and get into genetically modifying plants and have done with it? Bet you I could get them to produce little round balls of freebase (as opposed to seeds) (more than half of which are not viable after about two weeks anyway)!

 

[allone]

i used to order coca leaves for tea which was actually legal in the US ( do not know current status) and im surprised so many morons out there are willing to risk their lives to get just few hits of crack and/or some shitty cut up coke. this stuff was so potent! you just gotta know how to make it. plus, you need a good source! the same shit with opiates. i found out about kratom like 15 years ago when nobody knew shit about it and i felt i fucked up so many dealers losing clientele haha

 

[MsDiz]

Couldn’t you just send a few emails exclaiming you’re a prince who needs a hand with start up funds?

 

[dalpat077]

i used to order coca leaves for tea which was actually legal in the US ( do not know current status) and im surprised so many morons out there are willing to risk their lives to get just few hits of crack and/or some shitty cut up coke. this stuff was so potent! you just gotta know how to make it. plus, you need a good source! the same shit with opiates. i found out about kratom like 15 years ago when nobody knew shit about it and i felt i fucked up so many dealers losing clientele haha

Now believe it not: just yesterday I found a scientific paper where it was found that it's not only the three usual suspects (of Coca plant) that contain the Cocaine alkaloid. So many of the different species have not been tested at yet. And it's a shame really (not only for my purposes i.e. these things really and truly do contain some valuable medicinal properties. When I first started going down the E.Coca rabbit hole I found that statement made everywhere and thought "yeah right". Turns out I was wrong. And certainly appears to be truth to the notion that thanks to the UN: very little research has been able to be conducted on this wonderful plant.

And lo and behold in that same paper: the Cocaine alkaloid content of tea bags and powder was quantified. And believe it or not: it's not too shit (the quantities) relatively speaking. Problem is the cost. I refuse (for my purposes anyway) to pay the blatantly exploitative amounts charged for these teabags and powder (and that without shipping). The farmers are getting, on average, the equivalent of $2 USD per kg. Where do these online vendors get off charging the prices they are (even in bulk)? It's exploitation at its finest. Either that or that is some damn expensive packaging!

Anyway. There's a few little nuggets (papers and tests) that I need to upload here. Will get to it during the week probably.

 

[dalpat077]

Couldn’t you just send a few emails exclaiming you’re a prince who needs a hand with start up funds?

Or that I have a multi billion USD inheritance but that I cannot claim without your help (and a fee of course)! And people still fall for this shit!

It's gone way past the money though (I think you know me only too well though so I'm don't have to explain).

I did have a thought the other day though. And as much of a joke it was at the time: turns out it wasn't such a bad deal at all (especially not for the other party). I said I'd gladly exchange a metric ton of weed for the same in E.Coca. Good deal because on their side no processing is required. And there's no shortage of weed this side. Sadly: no PM's were the result! Anyway. As I said. I think you know me. A dog with a bone got nothing on me!

Spoiler: Never Give Up

 

[dalpat077]

Oh well.

I've probably gone as far as I can go with this for now.

But for the record and as promised here's a link to a paper (2005) entitled "Cocaine distribution in wild Erythroxylum species". Sorry for the formatting i.e. it actually came from another forum where somebody had ever so kindly downloaded the thing and pasted its contents (where they got it from I know not and all of these scientific sharing sites want $$$ for this old paper) (grates me i.e. they tell you to sign up "for free" but once you've done so then the catch/price appears).

I don't know how much more work has been done on these plants i.e. the paper if 15 years or so old of course. But it at least goes to prove that a very small portion of these plants has been examined and that not all are benign (albeit that the content of the two or three usual suspects is way way higher than the rest but who knows i.e. given that there's over 200, if not more, species and only a handful have been studied and tested) (at least up until 2005 anyway).

The good old teabags are also mentioned but unless I'm reading it wrong or not understanding the context: the figures don't stack up against these teks. floating around (this in contrast to what I noted above in an earlier post).

CDE.zip

drive.google.com

One or two interesting things though e.g. a 44-year old E.Coca leaf still containing trace amounts of the alkaloid! Go figure!