Lesions found in brains of ketamine addicts/frequent users

[Bluuberry]

I will do that, thanks for letting me know about that. Very true, that our brains and bodies respond much differently to drugs when we optimize our health. Now what I wonder - how serious are the effects of these changes in grey matter and lesions? What would that mean, in practical terms? More likely to develop Alzheimers or something?

Here's a study showing changes in grey matter in chronic tobacco smokers.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

So I wonder if it's really THAT big of a deal.. I don't know though. Lesions sound preeeetty bad.

Time for me to get on the Lions Mane.. Increases nerve growth factor, sounds like it would be a big help in prevention.

 

[noone1]

Someone please prove this study wrong.. I couldn't find any other similar studies on humans. I really don't want to stop doing MXE, I know it sounds ridiculous but it feels like losing a lover. But I sure love my brain too.

I don't think anyone here will prove this study wrong it needs to be peer reviewed by other scientists and proved wrong through experiments. A factor I don't see in the paper is why are they assuming the addicts are all telling the truth about their use? And of course they could have been influenced by the government or researchers to lie about their use.

Remember one study is not the be all and end all of scientific evidence, more studies (hopefully) will come and prove this right or wrong.

It would give me pause if I was a ketamine user though can't fault anyone for that. But I don't think you're going to find anyone to calm your fears.

 

[Ismene]

I don't think anyone here will prove this study wrong it needs to be peer reviewed by other scientists and proved wrong through experiments. A factor I don't see in the paper is why are they assuming the addicts are all telling the truth about their use? And of course they could have been influenced by the government or researchers to lie about their use.

It won't be peer-reviewed because it's anti-drug propaganda and no-one peer reviews shite like that.

Also seeing as you get shot for taking drugs in China it makes you wonder how they located these "ketamine addicts", what other drugs they were taking, what kind of lifestyles they've been living for the last 10 years etc. If t hey've been locked in prison being kicked to a pulp on a regular basis by the guards perhaps that would result in "lesions" too.

 

[Goddess Mode]

It really amazes me that people find these kinds of results surprising, even if there might have been some questions they didn't ask or whatever.... What I want to know is: has there ever been even a single study supporting the idea that this is not the case? Please, if there has been, direct me to it. I've heard it repeated en masse that damage has not been proven with dissociatives in humans, but as far as I can tell, it has never been remotely disproven either. A personal search of the available information shows that: 1) damage has indeed been found in both rodents and non-human primates, 2) both the psychotic and neurotoxic effects of dissociatives in animals seem to be linked to high glutamate, 3) glutamate is a known neurotoxin in humans, 4) taking dissociatives that either block other glutamate receptors besides NMDA (xenon) or with drugs that increase GABA activity too much which would reverse the glutamate increase causes a distinct lack of the typical dissociative psychosis in humans, and 5) memory problems from dissociative abuse are anecdotally reported fairly commonly as it is. Is there really any good reason whatsoever to think that dissociatives do not cause any kinds of damage in us?

 

[jason7]

This tells me that it's time to stop buying MXE. When the couple grams I have left is gone that's it for me. It does feel pretty toxic to the brain actually. I'm sitting there with double vision thinking this just can't be good on my brain, and it's true. I think MXE is something you use for maybe a year total and then you just have to move on. Besides, from what I've read, the good effects tend to wear off after the first while of use and are replaced by anxiety and depression. Everything just points to MXE being something you only use for a while and then never use again. I'm actually getting bored with it now anyway. By the time what I have left is gone I'm sure I'll be ready to call it quits. Time to get out while my kidneys and brain are still relatively intact. Guess I'll have to stick with ergoloids and cannabis products, which I can be pretty sure won't cause me serious harm, as long as I take the cannabis products by mouth instead of smoking. That's another thing I have to stop while there's still time. Smoking anything is a bad idea really.

 

[:DNA]

It really amazes me that people find these kinds of results surprising, even if there might have been some questions they didn't ask or whatever.... What I want to know is: has there ever been even a single study supporting the idea that this is not the case? Please, if there has been, direct me to it. I've heard it repeated en masse that damage has not been proven with dissociatives in humans, but as far as I can tell, it has never been remotely disproven either. A personal search of the available information shows that: 1) damage has indeed been found in both rodents and non-human primates, 2) both the psychotic and neurotoxic effects of dissociatives in animals seem to be linked to high glutamate, 3) glutamate is a known neurotoxin in humans, 4) taking dissociatives that either block other glutamate receptors besides NMDA (xenon) or with drugs that increase GABA activity too much which would reverse the glutamate increase causes a distinct lack of the typical dissociative psychosis in humans, and 5) memory problems from dissociative abuse are anecdotally reported fairly commonly as it is. Is there really any good reason whatsoever to think that dissociatives do not cause any kinds of damage in us?

To add to this, anecdotal reports of users developing some form of noticeable permatolerance seem to be more associated with the short and long-term abuse of dissociatives than with any other recreational drug class (in my experience, at least). Definitely a cause for concern.

 

[Bluuberry]

Good points Goddess Mode. The only thing that would make me think that occaisonal / moderate disso use doesn't have major side effects would be a relatively large number of anecdotal reports of users who have had brain scans and organs checked out etc, that report everything being normal. That's the part that I don't get. According to this report, anyone with a habit should have brain lesions or at least the beginning of them. THAT's the part that I'm questioning. I have no desire to blow a gram of K every day but I wonder if using reasonable doses a few times a week would have the same effect. Also, if the reason these holes are developing is due to glutamate excitotoxicity, would it be possible to mitigate this danger by taking any kind of supplement or vit/mineral? Obviously keeping doses low and avoiding redosing is crucial.

It's so frustrating trying to figure things out based on studies funded by anti drug organizations. I mean, how many studies have they done in decades past showing that LSD will make you go crazy if you take it 7 times, or claiming cannabis causes schizophrenia and is worse for you than tobacco? So many times, a study has been done that was referenced to for years, until someone finally proved it to be completely false. The time they gave rats methamphetamine instead of MDMA comes to mind - proving that "MDMA" puts holes in the brain.

@Goddess: btw, I have heard that there ARE studies in K and PCP burnouts that show no major brain damage, but I have yet to be able to find these studies myself. Just something I've heard other knowledgeable folks reference to. If anyone can find related studies, please share.

Also, kinda fucked up, but the dark sarcastic side of me had to laugh a little at the Chinese government rounding up 12 K addict prisoners with severe head trauma after being beaten daily by the guards. "Yep, these are the guys, we're SURE they will have brain lesions!"

This study does really worry me, but I also have a hard time believing something that was funded by the Anti Drug council in China. I've never had much reason to believe anything the Chinese govt said in the past, they don't exactly have the best track record. Maybe David Nutt will get a study crowdfunded and do some similar tests. I'd pitch in for damn sure!

 

[greengummybear]

This tells me that it's time to stop buying MXE. When the couple grams I have left is gone that's it for me. It does feel pretty toxic to the brain actually. I'm sitting there with double vision thinking this just can't be good on my brain, and it's true. I think MXE is something you use for maybe a year total and then you just have to move on. Besides, from what I've read, the good effects tend to wear off after the first while of use and are replaced by anxiety and depression. Everything just points to MXE being something you only use for a while and then never use again. I'm actually getting bored with it now anyway. By the time what I have left is gone I'm sure I'll be ready to call it quits. Time to get out while my kidneys and brain are still relatively intact. Guess I'll have to stick with ergoloids and cannabis products, which I can be pretty sure won't cause me serious harm, as long as I take the cannabis products by mouth instead of smoking. That's another thing I have to stop while there's still time. Smoking anything is a bad idea really.

i know that this is easier said than done. if possible, taper off over a week or two.

 

[Ismene]

Strange how easy it is to spook drug users. Someone with a known agenda is claiming something based on a wonky study and it puts drug users into a panic. It's like the boss of a company that makes washing powder saying "using daz will give you brain lesions". You HAVE to question where shit like this comes from before you take it seriously.

 

[Bluuberry]

Ismene, trust me I'm right there with you. I don't trust the people who funded this study. I am just concerned. With much propaganda, one has lots of evidence that said propaganda is bullshit. Common sense is usually enough. And this study was around the same time as a lot of ketamine bans. For all I know it could be completely fake, or at least falsifying some data. It's known that this happens.

However, Goddess Mode basically brought up all the reasons that concern me. It is well-known that these disso's can cause glutamate excitotoxicity, which is a neurotoxic effect. Now I don't understand enough about the brain to know whether this glutamate neurotoxicity would lead to these lesions. I'm really hoping someone with a deeper understanding of these things will chime in here eventually and shed a little light.

It's simply the lack of other studies (or maybe they are out there and I haven't found them yet?) proving or even suggesting that this is NOT the case. It would be interesting to talk to more ketamine addicts / frequent users who have had MRI's done, and find out how common it seems to actually occur.

Also, I'm still wondering what the practical effects of these lesions would be on someone's day to day life. Would you be more likely to develop brain tumors there? Or would you not even notice that you had lesions on your brain?

 

[jason7]

Even if theoretically it didn't damage the brain or kidneys at all there's still the fact that it does have a burnout effect on the antidepressant aspects because both researchers (this study, if I'm not mistaken) and user reports say that this is the case, that after about a year of regular use they are left with depression and anxiety instead of being antidepressed as they were in the beginning. It just doesn't look like something that's suited to longterm use. Besides, many have reported that it gradually creeps into pretty much taking over your life if you let it. The only way to avoid taking it regularly is not to have a bag of it around. The last couple buys I tried to make turned out to be scammers anyway so that's another reason for me not to order more. The only way to avoid getting scammed is to pay a rather high price for it, it seems.

With China cracking down it's going to dry up soon anyway and get a lot more expensive if you can get it at all. If there were no indication of organ damage then it might be worth going after even with the higher prices but since we have pretty good reasons to believe that it DOES cause at least some damage then that's just another nail in its coffin. I can't see myself doing MXE a lot longterm anyway because it just messes me up too much. I'm pretty much disabled during a trip. I couldn't really walk around on it or function if something came up. It's just obvious to me that I shouldn't order anymore when what I have is gone. Others can make their own choices about it but that's gonna have to be mine, all things considered. I guess it will leave a bit of a hole in my life, because it did work nicely, but I think it's just for the best to cut it off this early when I've only had a total of 6 grams. I should come out of that amount okay.

 

[mr.mackey]

Im skeptical about the absence or limited information regarding these "addicts" drug histories, they mention the use of ecstasy and amphetamine but the citations they provide about previous studies done regarding damage caused by ecstasy use never mention MDMA but instead Methamphetamine. It is eerily similar to the notorious ecstasy studies published by NIDA that turned out to be hugely flawed because the researchers "accidentally" mislabeled the vial of Meth, yet they made no real attempt to correct the misinformation, happy to suggest that MDMA causes damage on the level of meth.

Furthermore, they mention an average dose being 1g daily, but neglect to mention method of administration. In general I suspect that high dose ketamine on a daily basis is certainly not good for you, but that said it would not surprise me if many of the participants were poly drug users and a history of drug addiction prior to their use of ketamine. True there are people for whom ketamine or dissociative addiction is possible without other drug addiction comorbidity, but in my experience people who abuse ketamine on a daily basis are almost never limited to ketamine alone, ie coke, benzos and opiates.

I think it is this as well as patterns of abuse; binge behavior, around the clock injection or compulsive use that are particularly responsible for the effects seen in the study, especially because there was such a wide degree of variation among the areas of the brain affected as well as the degree of damage or degeneration. Including the extremely limited sample size I think this is something to be aware of, take note: If you ingest large quantities of nearly any drug on a daily basis for multiple years, your brain WILL change, but that is not to say your brain cannot adapt and repair itself in the most remarkable of ways.

 

[Bluuberry]

@ jason7: True that the antidepressant effects can wear off, but these seems to be fixed by taking regular breaks. Every time I break for even just a few days, the magic is back. I guess the problem with me is that it made me HYPER functional. I've only been incapacitated by MXE like a dozen times and I've been through ~20 g. I take small to moderate doses, started off just in the evenings and I would organize everything in my house and have the most connected conversations with my girlfriend. My suicidal depression was replaced by a zest for life and a renewed interest in all my hobbies. I like to take it in the mornings more than at night now, low doses. I socialize more, I get more done, I take care of my house better. It just literally makes my life better in so many ways and I rarely have a negative reaction to it (usually just from taking too much or not maintaining proper diet). So it's harder for me to say that I'll be reclaiming some part of my life, because as much as it is a big part of my life, it also gave me my life back. What a double edged sword she is.

@mr mackey:
I agree 100% with what you're getting at. In one of the tables they do say that the administration was nasal for all of the subjects, but as has been pointed out, they may have been lying. I think more and more that this is impossible to draw any conclusions from besides being zoned out all the time could cause brain damage. Researchers have pointed out changes in the brain matter of people who use the internet all the time, for example. I don't think I will completely stop using disso's but the uncertainty of all this makes me want to cut back, and start adding neuroprotective things to my diet such as certain medicinal mushrooms and herbs. I imagine some day disso's won't have a place in my life, but at the moment some days it's the only thing that helps me see that everything is not pointless. Maybe when my life is where I want it to be then I won't need this crutch to be able to see a brighter future, when I'm finally living in that brightness.

It's also tough, because knowing China, they may very well have threatened to throw the researchers in prison camps if they didn't produce the desired results. Who knows. I do know I have even less reason to believe anything sponsored by their government or their anti drug council, than I have reason to believe the DEA or US govt. Which doesn't say much. I think I may make another thread asking for disso users who have had MRIs to report anything abnormal. Not sure if there will be enough to data to suggest anything but it's worth a shot.

 

[StanleyJobson]

there is mounting evidence that spending a part or most of every day anesthesized on a veterinary tranquilizer isn't particularly healthy.

I'm not sure I agree with this statement.

 

[Bluuberry]

I'm not sure I agree with this statement.

LOL! Seconded.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Z...AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=ketamine addict mri&f=false

This was rather helpful. Interesting stuff. Scroll up a little for more info. I may end up buying this book, seems pretty interesting. There are more studies that are relevant to this discussion referenced in this text. According to the authors interpretation of the available data, it suggests that their may be a long lasting impairment of episodic memory and attentional functioning.

There are studies referenced in this book saying that repeated ketamine doses causes neuronal apoptosis, including in the prefrontal cortex, cerebellum, and brain stem.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2202/7/49
Here's a study that's pretty unrelated but mentions that high levels of glutamate is thought to contribute to Alzheimers. Just something to be aware of. Disso's cause increased levels of glutamate in the brain, especially with large, repeated doses.

The first link mentions that chronic NMDA blockage exerts a change on synaptic plasticity. This leads me to believe that it could reasonably lead to degenerative diseases such as Alzheimers. Bummer. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting the data though?

I don't think I'm going to completely stop my disso use at this time, but I'm scaling back for sure and will probably stop before too long. In the meantime I'm going to start growing Lion's Mane mushrooms and consuming as much as possible. Lion's Mane increases levels of nerve growth factor in the brain, which increases synaptic plasticity. Lion's Mane extracts are also available commercially for those who have no interest in mycology.

Again, I'm assuming these ketamine studies will apply to other disso's as well, because it seems that the mechanism of degeneration is through NMDA blockage and glutamate toxicity, which is common to all disso's. Anyone with a better understanding of pharmacology care to let me know if this assumption makes sense?

This has been an interesting line of inquiry for me. I learned that heroin causes changes and loss in the grey matter of the brain, similar to ketamine. I always heard that opiates didn't cause any major changes in the brain and the damage was purely physical through malnutrition, etc.

Of course one has to wonder how truthful these studies are, but it's the only data we have to go on as far as I know.

Wish I could just copy and paste. Check out page 162 of that first link. Says chronic ketamine use is associated with significant changes in the microstructure of white matter in the brain. According to the author, these changes are also present in chronic users of other drugs, including cannabis, alcohol, and amphetamines.

I'm more confused now than ever, lol. Just thought I would share this info in case it's useful to someone, or maybe someone with more knowledge than myself can explain things a bit.

 

[juno nightmare]

it sounds like these guys were all very heavy users. additionally, all academic studies done in china must be taken with more than a couple grains of salt. third point, their sample size was only 21, kinda small of a medical study.

 

[Bluuberry]

it sounds like these guys were all very heavy users. additionally, all academic studies done in china must be taken with more than a couple grains of salt. third point, their sample size was only 21, kinda small of a medical study.

My thoughts exactly.. I found some other studies referenced in that first link in my last post that don't sound too promising (from other places besides China) but I haven't had the chance to fully investigate them.

 

[Ismene]

Can the pictures even be trusted? Remember Ricuarte or whatever his name was - he was a DEA funded "researcher" who put out all those photos of "Brains with holes in them" due to MDMA which all turned out to be complete bullshit. I think he even used the wrong drug at one point - claimed MDMA had caused brain damage and he hadn't actually used MDMA in the study.

And that was US DEA funded research - god knows how poor chinese drug-abuse funded research is.

 

[Dawglaw]

Valid or not, this study is a good reminder that we are ingesting a chemical that there is ZERO information of the long term risks. For me, MXE feels less toxic than say ethanol and amphetamines. But at the end of the day, it is a crap shoot.

The key in my opinion, as with everything, is moderation and proper self control. Our bodies and brains are incredibly resilient pieces of biology and limited exposure to harmful substances will probably not cause noticeable damage over the long term. Just don't be that K-head from Drugs, Inc., that now pees blood into a bag every 2 hours.

 

[Peacephrog1972]

Taking ketamine daily just doesn't sound like a good idea.....I would think that is playing with fire.....eventually your going to get burned

Can't think it would be any different with MXE.

It's a fairy new drug with no long term studies done....for all we know it could be eating holes in your frontal lobe while I type this

FWIW I did MXE 4-5 times a week for about 10 months....fast foward 2 years and I for sure have really bad short term memory problems....if I look at a string of 7 numbers I cannot remember them 10 seconds later..:.i never had that problem before

Of course that could be attributed to smoking pot for 15 years straight.