• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Laboratory costs and sample analysis and testing

dalpat077

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 14, 2019
Messages
3,092
Let me state from the outset that I have never tested a sample nor had a sample tested. At best I’ve had a cursory look at sample analysis and testing and at the basics thereof. So be kind.

Basically only two questions:

What does it actually cost a laboratory to test a sample? Not talking about the equipment required or any administration costs. Just the cost of testing a sample. And the type of test to be qualitative and quantitative i.e. not simply testing for adulterants but also for purity.

Does the technology exist to test entire samples and on a nondestructive basis? I don’t know if that is an understandable or sensical question so will give an example. Whether it be 10g of Cocaine or a single Xanax bar: does the technology exist that could test either, as a whole, both for adulterants as well as for purity in one operation? And first prize: without having to remove or tamper with any packaging (within reason of course).
 
I’m about to sign off so can’t write a detailed post but in short it depends on the testing method. Some have consumables and some don’t. Some require expensive trained technicians and some don’t. Some require purchase of subscription to reference databases of substances. Some are destructive and some are not. The choice is also governed partly by whether you need qualitative or quantitative results.

The gold standard for many substances in mixture is Liquid Chromatography - Mass Spectrometry and Gas Chromatography - Mass Spectrometry which require the most number of consumables and the most highly trained operators. Both are destructive.

At the other end hand-held IR spectrometers largely automate the process and reporting and are totally non-destructive. You point the head at the substance, it assesses it against a reference library and generates a report. They are starting to use them at festivals and police stations. Such machines can accurately scan through plastic packaging and tell you the combination of substances therein. With an accuracy of up to 1% of meth in an aqueous solution for example.
 
At the other end hand-held IR spectrometers largely automate the process and reporting and are totally non-destructive. You point the head at the substance, it assesses it against a reference library and generates a report. They are starting to use them at festivals and police stations. Such machines can accurately scan through plastic packaging and tell you the combination of substances therein. With an accuracy of up to 1% of meth in an aqueous solution for example.
Thank you Sir. Now the above is of interest and pretty much what I was asking about in my second question and also pretty much what I'm after. Moreover: it renders my first question irrelevant (I think).

Any further information you could provide on the above would be very much appreciated. In the meantime I'll do some searching as some more specifics are then required e.g. what are the limitations, would any hot spots be identified in a package or strip of pills, that type of thing. Probably a few more will come to mind soon enough.
 
@Perforated (I cannot get used to calling you that but anyway i.e. we go back some here and I'm a creature of habit and don't readily accept change! :ROFLMAO: ).

I've been doing some searching and reading and then some. One sure is spoiled for choice it would seem. There's thousands of pages on this and not to mention different suppliers and technologies. And it's clearly evident that I'm behind the times i.e. this shit has been around for ages it would seem (all that's changed is that the technology and portability has obviously improved over the years).

If you know any particulars or specifics of those handheld IR Spectrometers that you made mention of then please let me know. I assume there's a sort of "gold standard" when it comes to these devices given that they're being used for the protection and safety of your average Joe Public drug user and in real time (as opposed to simply being used by law enforcement in order to do a preliminary scan that yields a presumptive result and that still has to be sent to a laboratory for more exhaustive and accurate testing).


For what it's worth though (at this stage of the game anyway) here's an interesting link and website (interesting to me anyway):



From the same website (interesting and more current i.e. 2020 article):

 
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I was actually going to post those same links.

The thing with IR is the power matters a lot. Small machines can give false negatives, especially on coke depending on the amount and composition of cut, and on some isomers and analogues. Boosting the power can often overcome this.

There are many brands. If I was buying one I’d start my research with Agilent: https://www.agilent.com/en/product/...r-for-through-barrier-chemical-identification
 
I was actually going to post those same links.

The thing with IR is the power matters a lot. Small machines can give false negatives, especially on coke depending on the amount and composition of cut, and on some isomers and analogues. Boosting the power can often overcome this.

There are many brands. If I was buying one I’d start my research with Agilent: https://www.agilent.com/en/product/...r-for-through-barrier-chemical-identification
Hey. Thanks.

That looks like THE shit (Agilent). :) Although I've not gone through the entire site nor contacted them as yet (obviously) that's pretty much exactly what I'm looking for looks like.

Thanks again.
 
Found another one that's about half the price of the Agilent (and that's for the full suite). Love the name i.e. very catchy! 👮‍♂️


You know what I'd like to know given the cost of all of these things:

What is the cost of the actual hardware?
 
Once I had this device from consumerphysics, a pocket NIR spectrometer but the application for it was designed for testing food, and these fuckers wanted some thousand bucks for the source code - I intended to attempt a reverse engineering of it as it's android and thus Java code which is easier to disassemble but didn't get to do it because some asshole stole the device even when he has absolutely no use for or understanding of this tek.

I only know energy control from Spain, afaik they want 50 Eur for a sample which is pretty hefty. Unfortunately legislation doesn't make it easier, in many places like Germany drug testing is illegal. In Switzerland you can test one sample per person and week for free when you attend a 30min harm reduction interview but the results were pretty generic and they can only identify substances which they have in their database, was too long ago, I forgot if I asked about the technology they're using.

Then we have marquis, mecke, mendelin etc. of course but guess you'll know them. @Perforated pretty much said it. But I'm too interested in the real costs, and if there maybe alternatives to energy control exist. Also one should be able to mix these reagents oneself and save a ton of money.
 
I’m about to sign off so can’t write a detailed post but in short it depends on the testing method. Some have consumables and some don’t. Some require expensive trained technicians and some don’t. Some require purchase of subscription to reference databases of substances. Some are destructive and some are not. The choice is also governed partly by whether you need qualitative or quantitative results.

The gold standard for many substances in mixture is Liquid Chromatography - Mass Spectrometry and Gas Chromatography - Mass Spectrometry which require the most number of consumables and the most highly trained operators. Both are destructive.

At the other end hand-held IR spectrometers largely automate the process and reporting and are totally non-destructive. You point the head at the substance, it assesses it against a reference library and generates a report. They are starting to use them at festivals and police stations. Such machines can accurately scan through plastic packaging and tell you the combination of substances therein. With an accuracy of up to 1% of meth in an aqueous solution for example.

Yeah these things are great, but they require that the device be loaded with reference spectra, so they are pretty useless for less common substances, and can give all sorts of weird false readings in those cases. Case in point, I had a friend with access to one try to identify 5 different RCs that are less common, which I had had lab analyzed and confirmed they were what they were supposed to be, and not one of them was correct, but all of them indicated that they were different RCs (like DOPr read as 2C-E, as an example).

That said, those devices are fantastic tools, as they can instantly identify common drugs and even some uncommon ones, on-site (at festivals, at locations uswers can go to for the purpose, and so on) and without costing anything (other than the one-time device purchase).
 
Yeah these things are great, but they require that the device be loaded with reference spectra, so they are pretty useless for less common substances, and can give all sorts of weird false readings in those cases. Case in point, I had a friend with access to one try to identify 5 different RCs that are less common, which I had had lab analyzed and confirmed they were what they were supposed to be, and not one of them was correct, but all of them indicated that they were different RCs (like DOPr read as 2C-E, as an example).

That said, those devices are fantastic tools, as they can instantly identify common drugs and even some uncommon ones, on-site (at festivals, at locations uswers can go to for the purpose, and so on) and without costing anything (other than the one-time device purchase).
The one being admired by @dalpat077 (which I'd quite like myself) claims it comes with a library of 450 substances including both drugs and precursors. They make a big deal in their marketing of staying up to date with new cathinones. However, as they market practically exclusively to law enforcement I expect there is a pretty long gap between when something new is synthesised in China and when it starts arriving frequently enough and in enough places that their law enforcement clients could be fucked enough to pay for the library upgrade.

It doesn't sound at all like they add substances on a rolling basis. More like they upgrade the stock library on an upgrade cycle (aligned to law enforcement annualised budget processes I'd expect).
 
(aligned to law enforcement annualised budget processes I'd expect).
Funny you should mention this. There's a part of me that wonders if this has something to do with the pricing. There are certain industries that fall over their feet to do business with government departments so that they can inflate their pricing. Was thinking about this just yesterday.

You're certainly spoiled for choice though both in terms of hardware and optional extras e.g. either an outright onetime purchase of a unit and a pay per update of the libraries or a price that includes updates for five years (or whatever), immediate loan units should the unit go faulty, that type of thing. That one from Fisher also provides an option of unlimited scans or pay per scan. I've not gotten firm and direct pricing on any of things but seems to me you're talking about anything from $20K USD and upwards. That ain't small change. As to why most of this stuff is only sold to law enforcement is beyond me. Much to my surprise: even those little presumptive chemical tests (the little packets with the vial of reagent) are only sold to law enforcement (except for one that tests Heroin for Fentanyl from Field Forensics).

Somebody mentioned above about making the reagent tests at home. I looked at that. They're just chemical mixtures (obviously) so it stands to reason one could make them. But there's a pile of different tests and they're not all created equal. And from what I gather: there's a fair margin of error possible.

On the link below is a load of information and not to mention just SOME of the different manufacturers and tests available (bearing in mind those listed are merely advertising sponsors so there's probably dozens more).


A few more:

Drug / Alcohol Enforcement - Officer.com
 
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@dalpat077 those reagent tests are perfectly legal in many countries, even those like Australia that ban commercial drug testing services by labs or pill testing at festivals.
 
@dalpat077 those reagent tests are perfectly legal in many countries, even those like Australia that ban commercial drug testing services by labs or pill testing at festivals.
I'm sure they are. Wouldn't know i.e. first time I've gone down this rabbit hole.

Only ones I'm familiar with are those little bags with the vial that the officer breaks and then shakes after inserting some of the substance into the bag. Those particular ones I've only seen available to law enforcement (but obviously I'm only looking at US sites). From what I gather they're not the same thing though (but I stand under correction) i.e. seems to me they're drug specific e.g. will turn blue for Cocaine (and the darker the better) (well: depends on which side of the line you are of course). In other words they're not like those reagent tests that I THINK you're talking about (which are far more general in nature) although probably work on the same principle i.e. chemical reaction and eyeballing the outcome.

Don't quote me on the above i.e. I'm by no means an expert in the field at all. My initial interest in all of this stuff (the expensive testing gear) was, I think, much along the same lines as yours i.e. a commercial testing laboratory.

I mentioned the actual making of reagent tests in reference @plumbus-nine's comment above. At a cursory glance and without my getting too carried away on this tangent: even good 'ol Wikipedia details the contents of some of these reagent tests.


I went off at a tangent on this (that's how I ended up on those websites above) i.e. I distinctly remember Cocaine HCL glowing a very very light shade of pale green under UV light back in the day. And that got me to wondering if Fentanyl, for example, would fluoresce a different color under UV light. Not too far fetched an idea i.e. there's a "Meth. Gun" that's been around for ages (but did get somebody arrested for sprinkles of icing sugar that fell off of his doughnut onto his floor mat in his car). And I see there's somebody working on a "Fentanyl Gun". Not necessarily UV light but a light spectrum is what these guns emit so far as I can tell. There's also some anecdotal evidence on Reddit i.e. some say that Fentanyl and Heroin fluoresce differently under UV light (doesn't seem to be an exact science though). I guess my point is that if there was any science behind this then it'd provide a cost effective and cheap and nasty solution for users is all i.e. a simple UV flashlight and some batteries and you're good to go (and if not good to go at least aware anyway). Problem is that most of the usual suspects fluoresce under UV light. But do they all fluoresce the same color is the question (to the naked eye which is key).

But I'll leave it to the experts and science.

Here's a decent paper (looks like) on these topics:


It's a little bit dated (2017) but makes for interesting reading nevertheless. Not sure how much further we've come technologically speaking.

Some things that kinda jumped off of the pages and that I found interesting:

Some or the other app. and associated chart that uses a smartphone to analyze the results of colorimetric tests (thus bypassing eyeballing) (edit: apparently nothing new).
Using those urine sample (dipstick) tests to test for Fentanyl (don't try this at home unless you read the paper).
And what I was (roughly anyway) on about above i.e. ultraviolet spectroscopy.
 
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Funny you should mention this. There's a part of me that wonders if this has something to do with the pricing. There are certain industries that fall over their feet to do business with government departments so that they can inflate their pricing. Was thinking about this just yesterday.

You're certainly spoiled for choice though both in terms of hardware and optional extras e.g. either an outright onetime purchase of a unit and a pay per update of the libraries or a price that includes updates for five years (or whatever), immediate loan units should the unit go faulty, that type of thing. That one from Fisher also provides an option of unlimited scans or pay per scan. I've not gotten firm and direct pricing on any of things but seems to me you're talking about anything from $20K USD and upwards. That ain't small change. As to why most of this stuff is only sold to law enforcement is beyond me. Much to my surprise: even those little presumptive chemical tests (the little packets with the vial of reagent) are only sold to law enforcement (except for one that tests Heroin for Fentanyl from Field Forensics).

Somebody mentioned above about making the reagent tests at home. I looked at that. They're just chemical mixtures (obviously) so it stands to reason one could make them. But there's a pile of different tests and they're not all created equal. And from what I gather: there's a fair margin of error possible.

On the link below is a load of information and not to mention just SOME of the different manufacturers and tests available (bearing in mind those listed are merely advertising sponsors so there's probably dozens more).


A few more:

Drug / Alcohol Enforcement - Officer.com

You can buy the common testing reagents on Amazon for really cheap, they're quite available. At least in the US.
 
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