Kratom Kratom withdrawal vs. withdrawal from "real" opiates

[Anonymous Dissident]

This is been something I've been wondering about for a while now. For those of you who have gone through withdrawal from heroin, fentanyl, oxy etc. and withdrawal from kratom, how did they differ in your experience? Easier or harder to handle, as I've seen people say both? Are the symptoms different in any significant way? Is there any single defining effect between the two? Is it simply something that varies from person to person based on individual metabolism? I'm very curious about this as everything I've read is remarkably inconsistent from person to person.

Thanks in advance for any thoughtful responses!

 

[negrogesic]

Its easily the most mild of any opioid withdrawal and I've experienced many different forms of varying severity from many different opioids. I've experienced withdrawal (on in some cases multiple occasions) from: heroin, methadone, oxycodone, morphine, tramadol, o-desmethyltramadol, opium (via poppy pod tea), tianeptine, loperamide, 2-methyl-AP237 and kratom. I am probably forgetting a few.

Even at decent size doses (35 grams a day), cold turkey is possible with comparatively mild symptoms when compared to other opioids (even in equianalgesic doses).

For me the symptoms have never risen above joint pain for up to 5 days, a running nose and yawning for 3 days, insomnia for up to 6 days, loss of appetite for up to 5 days, and mild depression and boredom (this is the longest lasting symptom generally speaking for any type of opioid withdrawal). Aside from boredom/depression, the main withdrawal seems to over in 5-7 days.

The symptom somewhat unique to kratom withdrawal is a particular form of restlessness. This likely stems from kratoms calcium channel blocking properties. Restlessness is featured in the withdrawal from other types of opioids, but kratom withdrawal restlessness feels a bit different. Kratom is likely a NMDA-antagonist as well to some degree so this may have a role in the unique kind of depression it produces upon withdrawal.

Kratom has a complicated mechanism of action so you are withdrawing on multiple fronts, but compared to other opioids its far more mild. I've never really exceeded 35g a day (not because I didn't want to -- the dizziness/nausea is just too strong) so I suspect that those that had issues are taking much higher doses than that.

If were to compare it to the withdrawal syndrome of another opioid I'd say tramadol, which is also a dirty opioid who's withdrawal syndrome is less severe than others.

 

[JackARoe]

Much respect to you AD, I read some of your other posts and I see you have a life filled with duties too, including taking care of a handicapped brother. It goes to show we never know what people are going through. That fact alone is the reason I will never give someone the finger in a car. That guy may have just had a death in his family or found out he has cancer and is coming home from the hospital. You never know.

So many variables to this question. From age, poly med use, length of time, what a person was doing before kratom, etc... I make that last statement as a person that has utilized kratom coming off heavier opiates and also have started clean, no opiate rattled brain, there was a difference for me. I can say when I use it to come off other heavier things the withdrawal is not good, almost as bad as the original withdrawal if I do not taper. But I have also started kratom clean from anything, and even stopping a 30 gr a day usage CT didn't result in much more than a runny nose, lethargy, some restlessness, and went away quick. Lethargy the only lingering issue. So there are two variables right there.

Again so many variables that it is not written in stone. I am like negrogesic, it is not too bad for me. I do credit that to only two times a day and leaving so many hours in between at times. I do think the every 4 hours routine causes a new level of discomfort. But to me it is the lightest and fastest withdrawal I have had. When I first started I could take 40 gr a day and stop after a month or two with practically no issues. Now I do though and while annoying I can function. Unlike the vomiting shivering mess I can be coming off poppy tea.

Some of this reminds me of my 93 year old father in law that is in a nursing home and just before he went in a place that was studying tumeric had asked if he was going to continue the study he was in. Here is a guy on 12 different meds, but they are doing a tumeric study? lol The guy is on so many meds including martazapine and pregabalin. It made me realize the term controlled study" probably does not exist anymore.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Its easily the most mild of any opioid withdrawal and I've experienced many different forms of varying severity from many different opioids. I've experienced withdrawal (on in some cases multiple occasions) from: heroin, methadone, oxycodone, morphine, tramadol, o-desmethyltramadol, opium (via poppy pod tea), tianeptine, loperamide, 2-methyl-AP237 and kratom. I am probably forgetting a few.

Even at decent size doses (35 grams a day), cold turkey is possible with comparatively mild symptoms when compared to other opioids (even in equianalgesic doses).

For me the symptoms have never risen above joint pain for up to 5 days, a running nose and yawning for 3 days, insomnia for up to 6 days, loss of appetite for up to 5 days, and mild depression and boredom (this is the longest lasting symptom generally speaking for any type of opioid withdrawal). Aside from boredom/depression, the main withdrawal seems to over in 5-7 days.

The symptom somewhat unique to kratom withdrawal is a particular form of restlessness. This likely stems from kratoms calcium channel blocking properties. Restlessness is featured in the withdrawal from other types of opioids, but kratom withdrawal restlessness feels a bit different. Kratom is likely a NMDA-antagonist as well to some degree so this may have a role in the unique kind of depression it produces upon withdrawal.

Kratom has a complicated mechanism of action so you are withdrawing on multiple fronts, but compared to other opioids its far more mild. I've never really exceeded 35g a day (not because I didn't want to -- the dizziness/nausea is just too strong) so I suspect that those that had issues are taking much higher doses than that.

If were to compare it to the withdrawal syndrome of another opioid I'd say tramadol, which is also a dirty opioid who's withdrawal syndrome is less severe than others.

This helps me so much thank you

I'm about to go through with this OP so I'll update on this thread. I've never withdrawn from kratom for two years sadly so I expect something dark coming up. In general, for a long time I was hearing from several people that kratom caused them to go through a deep depression from perpetual use. I did not understand that whatsoever until now. I don't receive any euphoria from it currently--simply a light buzz that elevates me above sickness. I've withdrawn from oxy 90-120 milligrams cold turkey before.. with kratom at my disposal for it that was a walk in the park surprisingly. It was a good bag of kratom at the time and probably among the best I've ever had. It was 3 days of severe sleepiness and some expected depression but surprisingly nothing beyond that which is shocking to me. Maybe it was just the best kratom.

However, I've withdrawn from fent a few months back. Now that kind of withdrawal kratom did not put a DENT in. I was bedridden with crippling agonizing depression and it took me 10 days to actually have the desire and ability to get out of my bedroom and go grocery shopping. Even then I felt so crappy alllll day everyday until I used suboxone very briefly to make it leave me alone. That was the worst withdrawal mentally I have ever experienced. It was the worst I've ever felt in my entire life actually I can't put this withdrawal into words that do it justice but you guys get the point. Lesson learned.

So I'd imagine it's going to be for me in between those two previous scenarios. Fingers crossed. Kratom does make me depressed and I need my youthful energy back to accomplish what I want to do.

 

[deficiT]

Currently using kratom to help taper from Suboxone, but I've pretty much been on kratom for years now... to the point that I don't really know what the withdrawal feels like because I never run out. I will say, when I was hospitalized and sent to rehab, I was coming off both benzos and opiates/kratom, and I was fucking miserable physically and emotionally until I finally got the subs.

 

[Chris42393]

Im WDing from kratom right now... and I can tell you it CAN be just as bad as heroin. EASILY. I quit several days ago and it's feeling EXACTLY like the last time I quit heroin. It's not easy... Im tapering my dose down week by week. Cold Turkey even for Kratom is horrible. I couldn't do it.

Restless leg syndrome, horrible body aches, chills/hot flashes, general restlessness, anxiety/depression, sweating, nausea/vomiting, no sleep, depression, anxiety, etc. etc.

Gabapentin can help for both. As well as some Marijuana and Benzo's. I personally wouldn't touch benzo's because they can become a problem too...

 

[IcyVirus]

The restlessness, dear god... it was pure hell for me for 11 full months and any caffeine or benadryl would make it much worse. Horrible restlessness, Jesus.

 

[xbandit07x]

Kratom withdrawal is closer to amphetamine withdrawal honestly its a mystery substance.

 

[BK38]

Ime, negrogesic and I align most closely in terms of my experience with Kratom.

Although the physical WDs are nowhere near as bad as opiates like heroin, methadone; it is not like there's no WD. Depression and some anhedonia and insomnia were my main complaints with Kratom WDs. I never went above 15ish grams per day.

I find Kratom, in some respects, to be functionally a "Tramadol-Lite." There must be some similarities in terms of the mechanisms of action. In any case, a useful substance if treated with respect.

 

[Chris42393]

I wish anyone and everyone who is about to start WDing from this the best of luck. It's not easy, but you can do it!

Just keep pushing!

 

[negrogesic]

Im WDing from kratom right now... and I can tell you it CAN be just as bad as heroin. EASILY. I quit several days ago and it's feeling EXACTLY like the last time I quit heroin. It's not easy... Im tapering my dose down week by week. Cold Turkey even for Kratom is horrible. I couldn't do it.

Restless leg syndrome, horrible body aches, chills/hot flashes, general restlessness, anxiety/depression, sweating, nausea/vomiting, no sleep, depression, anxiety, etc. etc.

What are/were the doses kratom involved?

Kratom withdrawal seems almost on the exact opposite side of the spectrum of heroin withdrawal. When I was in heroin withdrawal I started having powerful open-eyed hallucinations of a weird demonic and religious nature, parts of it were kind of like the most dysphoric k-hole imaginable, where I was transported elsewhere (I suddenly found myself on some future apocolyptic battlefield in Israel where I was fighting for the antichrists army -- and I don't even believe in that stuff). Of course that was from high dose intravenous heroin use (cold turkey).

Point being I see kratom and heroin on opposite sides of the spectrum.

 

[Chris42393]

What are/were the doses kratom involved?

Kratom withdrawal seems almost on the exact opposite side of the spectrum of heroin withdrawal. When I was in heroin withdrawal I started having powerful open-eyed hallucinations of a weird demonic and religious nature, parts of it were kind of like the most dysphoric k-hole imaginable, where I was transported elsewhere (I suddenly found myself on some future apocolyptic battlefield in Israel where I was fighting for the antichrists army -- and I don't even believe in that stuff). Of course that was from high dose intravenous heroin use (cold turkey).

Point being I see kratom and heroin on opposite sides of the spectrum.

Well Ive quit Kratom several times, all with different doses ... but the same "result" (withdrawal symptom wise).

1. 10gs a day -- First year tying kratom ... Quit with a longgg break (probably a year and a half)
2. 18gs a day -- year 2 using ... Quit with a longgg break (about a year)
3. 20gs a day -- year 3 using ... Trying to quit forever.

Obv. some days I used more and some less... Just depended (used it for pain, like I was using heroin for...)

I originally used Kratom to get off Heroin, which it worked wonderfully... Butttttt now im addicted to Kratom (technically safer) but I don't want to stay on this crap any more either. For anyone out there using Kratom to get off H... please be careful. The devil can hide in this one too...

 

[Larimar]

I used Kratom to get off 40-60 mg oxy a day . It is a wonderful tool . When I miss a dose I start to get real bitchy and restless; it’s different then the restlessness coming off oxy ; it’s a light version but present thru whole body and mind . If you gonna be addicted to something at least Kratom is legal and you can get it cheap . I hated those days I was out of pills and money it seemed like there was no relief in sight until I finally tried Kratom and I’m thankful for it .

 

[Xorkoth]

For me, kratom withdrawal is milder than full agonist withdrawal in every way except the restless legs/limbs. In that, it is worse, at least with long-term heavy addiction (like 50+ grams a day for years). Restless legs, restless arms, absolute hell on earth, because of total lack of ability to sleep or feel comfortable whatsoever. I'd lay awake and get so frustrated I would punch my legs as hard as I could until they went totally numb, so I wouldn't feel restless for a few minutes. I would basically either be in the shower or waiting for the hot water to come back, because hot showers stopped the restlessness while they were happening. Despite that, I didn't feel sick like heroin, morphine, things like that. The depression wasn't as bad, either.

Keep in mind I was dosing 50+ grams a day, and it was years in when I was dealing with coming off it and relapsing repeatedly.

 

[Pickledlemons]

kratom withdrawal is definitely easier but still a bitch. I remember when I was taking about an ounce a day for 6 months and was going back to subs and decided to do 48 hours induction instead of 24. I sat in my bed and watched TV all weekend. It was pretty uncomfortable in all the ways opioid withdrawal is, but it never became unbearable like fent withdrawal is unbearable. I was restless and miserable but it was manageable. I was able to distract myself. At points I would forget I was in withdrawal.... but with fent there was no forgetting.

 

[Pickledlemons]

What are/were the doses kratom involved?

Kratom withdrawal seems almost on the exact opposite side of the spectrum of heroin withdrawal. When I was in heroin withdrawal I started having powerful open-eyed hallucinations of a weird demonic and religious nature, parts of it were kind of like the most dysphoric k-hole imaginable, where I was transported elsewhere (I suddenly found myself on some future apocolyptic battlefield in Israel where I was fighting for the antichrists army -- and I don't even believe in that stuff). Of course that was from high dose intravenous heroin use (cold turkey).

Point being I see kratom and heroin on opposite sides of the spectrum.

Thats very interesting. My worst opioid withdrawls have always included hallucinations but it doesn't seem to be a very common effect. I remember when one health professional found out about this symptom she decided I wasn't in withdrawal but was actually overdosing. WTF? Since when do heroin overdoses involve panic, restless legs, dilated pupils and diarrhea?

 

[JackARoe]

What are/were the doses kratom involved?

Kratom withdrawal seems almost on the exact opposite side of the spectrum of heroin withdrawal. When I was in heroin withdrawal I started having powerful open-eyed hallucinations of a weird demonic and religious nature, parts of it were kind of like the most dysphoric k-hole imaginable, where I was transported elsewhere (I suddenly found myself on some future apocolyptic battlefield in Israel where I was fighting for the antichrists army -- and I don't even believe in that stuff). Of course that was from high dose intravenous heroin use (cold turkey).

Point being I see kratom and heroin on opposite sides of the spectrum.

So I read about a lot of people's struggle with kratom, saying it is as bad as other opiates. But for me, I agree with you negrogesic, while sure I do get uncomfortanble withdrawal, I am in no way "dope sick". Anyone that has been knows what that is. And to me kratom doesn't reach that. The withdrawal is missing the dope sick component (for me) and is milder. I know what you mean by hallucinations. Truly dope sick! I would imagine if I went from dope sick to straight up kratom withdrawal I would immediately feel better. It does make me scratch my head if we are talking about the same thing. But people are individuals and have their own reactions. And for that reason I do not recommend it unless someone knows the score. Too many people got surprised when there was a withdrawal at all. I also have two friends that should have stayed away because they were not heavy opiate users and they said they suffered. Then another friend who has shot street dope for years that said it was nothing. So it is an individual thing.

Now I am talking about plain leaf. I think there was evidence some years back that the UEI extract contaned some heavier opiate and people had a bitch getting off. I am out of the loop on current extracts though as I never indulge.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I was sweating my balls off today. It sucked. I took a stimulant so I didn't notice much depression yet. Took a tiny dose just now to cut the edge off. It's definitely a strong withdrawal from what I can tell so far. The peak isn't here yet.

kratom withdrawal is definitely easier but still a bitch. I remember when I was taking about an ounce a day for 6 months and was going back to subs and decided to do 48 hours induction instead of 24. I sat in my bed and watched TV all weekend. It was pretty uncomfortable in all the ways opioid withdrawal is, but it never became unbearable like fent withdrawal is unbearable. I was restless and miserable but it was manageable. I was able to distract myself. At points I would forget I was in withdrawal.... but with fent there was no forgetting.

So you used suboxone to get off kratom? And yes I agree.. fentynal withdrawal is otherworldly pain and I'd rather go through an obscenely high dose oxy cold turkey withdrawal instead. I'll admit fent feels incredible to me. But the down makes me want to off myself.

 

[Pickledlemons]

I was sweating my balls off today. It sucked. I took a stimulant so I didn't notice much depression yet. Took a tiny dose just now to cut the edge off. It's definitely a strong withdrawal from what I can tell so far. The peak isn't here yet.

So you used suboxone to get off kratom? And yes I agree.. fentynal withdrawal is otherworldly pain and I'd rather go through an obscenely high dose oxy cold turkey withdrawal instead. I'll admit fent feels incredible to me. But the down makes me want to off myself.

Yes. but first I used kratom to get off subs...then I found out a kratom addiction was actually harder to manage than subs so I went back. Plus kratom made me overconfident sometimes which caused problems at work, don't have that issue with bupe.... also its free here in bc which is nice.

And yes I totally understand about wanting to off yourself. Last time I went through fent withdrawal I was so restless and disoriented that I was walking into walls and shit. I asked my friend to hit me in the head with a hammer so I would pass out. I was that desperate for an escape. Good thing she didn't oblige.

 

[negrogesic]

The thing with kratom is that all you need to do is make it 120 hours and its pretty much over. Problem is hour 60 is the worst so hour 120 seems pretty far away. One idea would be to set a stopwatch on your phone and count down the hours. Nowing you are making progress and an end is approaching helps. Black seed is very helpful for kratom withdrawal, though its not a magic cure.

I honestly cant imagine switching to buprenorphine for kratom withdrawal unless you arent ready to quit. If thats the case then buprenorphine is a much better option than kratom. While kratom is good for quiting its not something id want as a maintenance drug due to side effects and constant need to redose.