Opioids kratom w/ OJ = So high I puke. Kratom w/o OJ = Barely any effect

[Seattle_Stranger]

I searched around and couldn't find anything similar. It's more or less understood that OJ and grapefruit juice can potentiate opiates and other related drugs. Something I've noticed during my frequent use of kratom was that I could take 10g of powder, thoroughly mix it in with a glass of OJ, slurp it all down, feel effects within 15 minutes and within the hour be so high I often get dizzy and puke. However, I also have tried the toss and wash method with more than 10g of powder and didn't get nearly as strong of an effect, if barely any effect at all. I have also tried kratom in capsules with little to no effect.

I always take 400mg cemitidine about 30-45 minutes before I ingest kratom, no matter what method. For some reason, I simply notice a much stronger kratom effect from mixing it in with OJ. Do you think the OJ might be helping certain alkaloids get extracted from the powdered leaf? Or perhaps does OJ simply just work THAT well potentiating kratom?

Anyone else notice this?

 

[Pegasus]

Grapefruit works because a substance in it inhibits the enzymes that metabolize it. Orange juice is not a CYP inhibitor, so I don't see how it would work, unless there is a mechanism I am unaware of. The OJ changing the physical characteristics of the leaf or stomach seems most likely if any potentiation is actually going on...

 

[Moredopamine]

Actually, it turns out the chemicals in grapefruit juice that inhibit liver enzymes are present in all sorts of citrus fruits (including oranges), though the concentration of these chemicals is highest in grapefruit. I doubt a glass of OJ would substantially affect liver enzymes.

 

[Pegasus]

^I mean that it is not listed as one, sorry. It is not thought to be enough to be relevant, as the substance in grapefruit is bergamottin (sp?), which is not present in OJ.

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

I figured grapefruit juice would hold the answer, so I downed a whole glass of GFJ, waited about 30 mins, and then T&W'd some kratom. Maybe minor poteniation at best. Not even close to how strong it hits when thoroughly mixed into OJ.

So, my hypothesis is that it's not so much of a potentiation effect going on here rather than something happening when I mix the powder in with the juice. Perhaps the simple liquidation and/or acidification of the powder helps with absorption or something?

 

[Pegasus]

^I'll try this tomorrow and give you my opinion. How exactly do you take with OJ? IME, kratom doesn't mix well with liquid...

 

[amapola]

Assuming all the simple answers have been ruled out... such as same batch of kratom, taken with the same amount of liquid (not OJ), the same amount of time from last dose etc. I would guess that it is the acidic OJ and liquid helping the absorption in the GI.

 

[Suck My Opiate]

I have heard of this effect before and the only thing that makes any sense is that the OJ assists in the extraction of the alkaloids from the Kratom leaf and thus absorption of more alkaloids in a shorter time frame than normal is occurring. A good variety of juices (i.e Lemon) are known to supposedly help the extraction of alkaloids when producing Kratom tea so it would make sense that OJ to some extent is doing the same thing. This use of OJ will not work for everyone although.

It should be noted that I know a lot about Kratom including from peer reviewed articles as well as from many actual Kratom users and while the majority (I'd estimate 60% ) of users IN MY EXPERIENCE express a higher effect from the combination of OJ/Kratom it's NOT the vast majority and a small amount of people seem to have lowered effects from this combination. It's not like there is legitimate scientific evidence/study in regards to OJ/Kratom use so my stats could be complete bullshit compared with the results if an actual study were done, so I'd recommend just doing whatever works for you Hopes this is informative or helpful in some manner.

EDIT: Formatting

 

[attempt4]

I have taken kilo's and kilo's and thousands and hundreds of thousands of grams of kratom over the years, many strains, many routes of administration, many times a day etc etc and I used to exclusively use OJ to toss and wash, feeling that it made a difference in potency as it is quite thick and acidic thus aiding full digestion/metabolism of the psychoactive indole alkaloids.

I was consuming stupidly large amounts of sugar through this excessive OJ consumption and this year I switched to just using diluting juice or warm water (the SE Asians use warm water sometimes with added lime juice for any preparations with Kakuam) and have noticed an increase in efficacy/potency but also a more prominent and consequentially relative increase in side-effects such as acute nystagmus, (eye wiggles) and nausea.

I would conclude that I do believe taking Kratom with OJ actually hinders it's full range of effects, but not to a seriously noticeable degree. Chase down your dose with a few gulps of any liquid to ensure optimum absorption, add black pepper and chilli powder to your dose of kratom and have a mug of hot green tea after you've had your dose for practical and inexpensive methods of making the most out of your dose without affecting tolerance.
Magnesium and white grapefruit juice 30-45 mins before taking your dose for further potentiation but this can shoot up your tolerance and make it lose its magic.

 

[Pegasus]

With most opiates, isn't the stomach not supposed to be acidic for best absorption? I think I remember reading that when grapefruit is taken, something to basify the stomach should also be taken to prevent the stomach from being overly acidic... Can someone confirm/ deny this?

 

[Suck My Opiate]

With most opiates, isn't the stomach not supposed to be acidic for best absorption? I think I remember reading that when grapefruit is taken, something to basify the stomach should also be taken to prevent the stomach from being overly acidic... Can someone confirm/ deny this?

Well, typically when grapefruit juice is taken to potentiate actual opiates (not kratom) it is recommended to take some kind of antacid 15-20 minutes later and then take the opiate 15-30 mins after that. The thing of it is, there is a difference between an actual opiate and kratom. It has been mentioned extensively by users that juices help to extract alkaloids from the Kratom leaf (i.e when making kratom tea) without destroying or adversely affecting said alkaloids. Stomach acids also affect Kratom differently than opiates. You don't want your stomach to be overly acidic and be overly producing lots of acids whether you take opiates or kratom, but a glass or two of OJ should have negligible if even any substantial negative affects on kratom. But again, there have been reports of people saying OJ/Kratom is beneficial while some others (though in my experience not a lot of people) say it's the exact opposite so I'd say do what works for you. A bit of Kratom isn't as big of a deal to waste or experiment with as precious opiates, so might as well mess around a bit imo.

edit: Added last 2 sentences

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

I always dose on cemitidine, an acid reducer that is known to potentiate opiates. I feel like it does make a difference in how the kratom affects me.

IME, kratom doesn't mix well with liquid...

I think this is exactly the reason this works. When i mix it in, I need to thoroughly mix it in with effort, it takes a while, and a lottttt of stirring, but it eventually stops clumping up, becomes saturated in the OJ, and becomes liquid kratom. The powder never fully dissolves though, so it's a rather thick, muddy, grainy slop. However, seeing as it takes me several minutes of vigorous stirring to get it to properly liquefy, I doubt my stomach could ever jirate like that enough to get the kratom into an equivalent liquid state. My hypothesis is that by thoroughly liquefying the kratom, the alkaloids are being pulled out of the powder much more quickly and efficiently and the acidic nature of the OJ helps with that. Then, with the acid reducer and usually an antacid too, my stomach is basifying too, helping with absorption, altogether creating a more or less perfect environment for the kratom. That's my super uneducated guess.

Something to note is that with my OJ method, I get much stronger effects but also stronger side effects like nausea. I often throw up when peaking on ~10g. I also get an actual euphoric rush starting at about 15 minutes after consumption, lasting up until I peak at ~1hr. That's the reason kratom is so addicting, is because you can literally feel the anxiety being lifted out of your head and everything around you slowly starts to be full of love just like coming up on MDMA! Via T&W method, I get weaker effects and no rush, but nearly no nausea at all.

What makes kratom fun is that you can get completely different effects from small dosage changes. For me, I know that simply ~8g is barely enough for me to get euphoria, but plenty of stimulation. ~10g, I get strong euphoria and stimulation, this seems to be the perfect dose, and then at about ~12g and higher, it's super sedating and usually too intense. All three are different experiences, and at higher sedating doses, in the right setting it can be almost psychedelic!

I am currently under a self-inflicted kratom break because my usage was starting to get out of hand. I'm stopping addiction in it's tracks before it sets in again. I'm already disappointed in how much of a struggle I'm actually having with this.... It's mostly psychological though, I'm not having many physical withdrawal symptoms aside from some fatigue. Nothing like pod tea....ugh that SUCKED.

 

[nullshithead]

OJ just extracts it faster, so it is a small difference, grapefruit is better, although it doesn't effect Kratom as much as other opiates would.

 

[Doldrugs]

I haven't noticed any difference between orange juice and water, except kratom with water is often instant vomit town and therefore no high. But I've noticed no increase or decrease in effects. I think orange juice (no pulp) is the best vehicle for kratom. It masks the taste better than anything else and gets it all into your system quickly.

 

[Wants2Nod]

I think that kratom's effects are stronger when it's ingested mixed thoroughly with liquid, period. I use the 20oz water bottle method, and find that it's absolutely the best way for me, personally. The onset is very rapid, and the overall effects are more powerful vs 'toss and wash'.

 

[Oakstone]

I've done it many times with both OJ and with water, and I can't say I've noticed any difference in affects whatsoever. When I use OJ, I just use it to cover the flavor, nothing more.
With GFJ, the effects are... different. Not just potentiated, but different. The high doesn't seem to get quite as, well, "high", but the effects last considerably longer and seem more narcotic in some ways. I typically use red strains (I prefer the sedation/nod), and notice this is more evident (even when used with a non-red strain) when combined with GFJ.

 

[Johndoedoe.junk]

Assuming all the simple answers have been ruled out... such as same batch of kratom, taken with the same amount of liquid (not OJ), the same amount of time from last dose etc. I would guess that it is the acidic OJ and liquid helping the absorption in the GI.

I've heard that the citric acid in the OJ helps the Kratom kick in faster.