Kratom Nightmare..depression. anxiety, RLS..bloke in uk desparately needs help please

[simon wolf]

Hi Guys, seem to have some nice connections going on here. Thinking Kratom was a harmless "health" supplement and being an idiot I ended up quickly on a 8 month 40g/day Kratom habit. Just getting that down to 10g a day nearly killed me so I just cant imagine what some of you guys have been through ! But for little old me i have not known pain, anxiety, depression like this. I would describe it as dancing naked with my own death.

So. Now 10g per day (0.5g hourly in 20 bottles) I thought i had done the hard bit...but maybe not eh ? It gets harder from here in or no ?

So distressed just dont know what to say other than please help if you can. I'am on super healthy diet with enzymes and cultures, epsom salt baths, valeriam etc to try help...but the insomnia is unbearable. Just cant get to sleep and cant manage without sleep. BUT want to TRY doing this WITHOUT any other pharmaceutical (they now all scare me !!) ..is that possible ? Has it been done ? Any help would be very much appreciated. Seems to me the CT distress may cause MORE harm by increasing my anxiety/depression??

May I also ask what the worst case cold turkey may be if I was chained to a bed with someone helping me ? And if I have to taper..well...its getting tough at 0.5g per hour ! what go to 0.4 ?

Big thank you

 

[deos68]

i personally think you are prolonging the inevitable
why don't you CT? scared?
CT from 40G a day is one thing but 10G is something completely different
CT will put you in a pretty shitty mood, along with depression and anxiety but always keep in mind it will go away once you fully rid everything from your system

you can continue to taper but don't follow through then relapse it'll put you right back to where you are right now
if you went down 30G im sure tapering from 10G is do able
i would set up a schedule and lower it little by little or say you take 10 doses in one day take 9 then 8 then 7 so on and so on over the course of a few weeks maybe even faster it all really depends on you we cant make that call
if you CT have some Imodium ready along with a benzo maybe a good anti histamine like hydroxyzine or benadryl they are diff from benzos but do help if you dont have access to any benzo's
what do you have in your arsenal?
and dont be scared of a pharm grade pill hell i am more scared of kratom, phenibut and shit of that nature than i am xanax etc

 

[###]

I would relax in your place. Most of opiates, and opioids are not really toxic in general, so you don't have to hurry. Further, it doesn't have to be harder from there, but it can be. Stop telling yourself such things. Placebo like effects, better term autohypnosis can be and is an issue for lot of people. If you expect hard time, you'll get it.
Usually there is a point when it gets hard. If you don't have opportunity and possibility to go cold turkey, relax and simply slow down. Stay at the dose, or even increase a bit, because you don't have to suffer!?
That you want to try without other pharmaceuticals (Didn't know Kratom is one.) is another BIG issue of yours IMO. Pharmaceuticals are not evil. You did a stupid thing with not informing your self about Kratom properly. From now on, start informing your self about things which are important for you, you use a lot, etc.

If you don't want or you cannot do CT, I would suggest increase the dose a bit, feel comfortable, stay at it for a week or so, continue to reduce slowly.

If you go CT, start using other things to help you sleep (maybe benzos or whatever), loperamide (Imodium) can help you with stomach (diarrhea, if you start having such issues.). Loperamide could help you much more than with diar., because it is an opioid without (serious at least) impact on CNS, I believe because we have opiate receptors in other parts of our bodies (In my case it hellped I think with low back pain, hot-cold-hot flushes, sweating...), but it can also cause serious constipation if you take too much.

 

[simon wolf]

i personally think you are prolonging the inevitable
why don't you CT? scared?
CT from 40G a day is one thing but 10G is something completely different
CT will put you in a pretty shitty mood, along with depression and anxiety but always keep in mind it will go away once you fully rid everything from your system

you can continue to taper but don't follow through then relapse it'll put you right back to where you are right now
if you went down 30G im sure tapering from 10G is do able
i would set up a schedule and lower it little by little or say you take 10 doses in one day take 9 then 8 then 7 so on and so on over the course of a few weeks maybe even faster it all really depends on you we cant make that call
if you CT have some Imodium ready along with a benzo maybe a good anti histamine like hydroxyzine or benadryl they are diff from benzos but do help if you dont have access to any benzo's
what do you have in your arsenal?
and dont be scared of a pharm grade pill hell i am more scared of kratom, phenibut and shit of that nature than i am xanax etc

Oh mate I'am touched by you taking trouble to respond..thank you so much. I hear you about the CT...think i forgot to say I took Kratom for anxiety and depression and so am worried about the CT trauma aggravating that and making it all return with avengance ? . ie I only took K as a "medicine".

DONT Relapse...best advice ever thanks

Yep agree...lots of containers with 0.5g in...see how many I can manage on.

Have in my arsenal (love that expression) diazepan, valerium, zimovane (zopiclone), sominex (non prescription promethazane)....but pharmaceuticals do ALL scare me...15 years on an ssri I THINK has damaged my receptors (discontinuation syndrome) and even taking one sleeping pill scares me that i will end up swopping one problem for another. Apart from lavender, valerium, clean bed, music, candles, incense (doing all ths)..the only option I can think off is to find sleeping pills with VERY different actions on the body ?

Again...thank you !

 

[simon wolf]

I would relax in your place. Most of opiates, and opioids are not really toxic in general, so you don't have to hurry. Further, it doesn't have to be harder from there, but it can be. Stop telling yourself such things. Placebo like effects, better term autohypnosis can be and is an issue for lot of people. If you expect hard time, you'll get it.
Usually there is a point when it gets hard. If you don't have opportunity and possibility to go cold turkey, relax and simply slow down. Stay at the dose, or even increase a bit, because you don't have to suffer!?
That you want to try without other pharmaceuticals (Didn't know Kratom is one.) is another BIG issue of yours IMO. Pharmaceuticals are not evil. You did a stupid thing with not informing your self about Kratom properly. From now on, start informing your self about things which are important for you, you use a lot, etc.

If you don't want or you cannot do CT, I would suggest increase the dose a bit, feel comfortable, stay at it for a week or so, continue to reduce slowly.

If you go CT, start using other things to help you sleep (maybe benzos or whatever), loperamide (Imodium) can help you with stomach (diarrhea, if you start having such issues.). Loperamide could help you much more than with diar., because it is an opioid without (serious at least) impact on CNS, I believe because we have opiate receptors in other parts of our bodies (In my case it hellped I think with low back pain, hot-cold-hot flushes, sweating...), but it can also cause serious constipation if you take too much.

Thank you ! yes autohypnosis, I'am saying to myself..."i cant relax...I cant sleep" etc....so controlling our mind is what a lot of all this is about then ? Personally I find stopping those thoughts very very challenging. Your right K is NOT a pharma, your right I did NOT inform myself properly and yes I should try relax.

I can buy into pharma being good for emergencies..but I agree with you I do have issues with pharma.

Thank you so much for such informative guidance !

 

[crzydiamond]

You may experience anxiety/depression when you do finally get off. Many people *not* prone to those experience them upon first being clean of opiates. But you have to realize ( and keep telling yourself) that it's temporary. It's due to your body's systems and endorphins and dopamine being out of whack. Kind of a rebound effect from having your system on high production for months.


It will balance out. But depression is a normal effect of PAWS ( post acute withdrawal syndrome; fancy way of grouping the symptoms you experience after the actual withdrawal as your body learns to function normally again)

My best advice having detoxed opiates such as heroin, fentanyl, and methadone is to taper. The key is when you drop down in dosage you have to stay at the new dosage until you're stable again--no withdrawal symptoms. So now stay at 10 g/day until you feel normal on it. Then start dropping either the dose or lowering the frequency of dosing. Just do it slow so your body adjusts. It's not a race

 

[deos68]

that's quite an inventory for someone who is scared of pharma's lol
i can see the cause for concern but really mate you are prob making it worse for yourself by fearing the worst
which your anxiety can be blamed for that

i would taper slowly stay on 10g until you feel normal you will stabilize eventually then take a bit less until you are completely off
but you have to distinguish what you are exp is in fact WD or your own anxiety levels which is why you took kratom to begin with correct?

i personally dont like to taper because well its easy to relapse and trust me its easy to act on believing well...i can take a bit more and ill be fine...super easy to go back to square one

going CT with valium which is awesome that you have that, some Imodium.... with that combo... you wont even know wtf anxiety is, nor feel any WD haha
diazepam "could" help with the anxiety, depression, insomnia, RLS and "could" help with the aches and pains since valium has muscle relaxing properties
and the Imodium "could" help if you start exp stomach issues which is common

idk mate its up to you on what you wanna do

 

[simon wolf]

You may experience anxiety/depression when you do finally get off. Many people *not* prone to those experience them upon first being clean of opiates. But you have to realize ( and keep telling yourself) that it's temporary. It's due to your body's systems and endorphins and dopamine being out of whack. Kind of a rebound effect from having your system on high production for months.


It will balance out. But depression is a normal effect of PAWS ( post acute withdrawal syndrome; fancy way of grouping the symptoms you experience after the actual withdrawal as your body learns to function normally again)

My best advice having detoxed opiates such as heroin, fentanyl, and methadone is to taper. The key is when you drop down in dosage you have to stay at the new dosage until you're stable again--no withdrawal symptoms. So now stay at 10 g/day until you feel normal on it. Then start dropping either the dose or lowering the frequency of dosing. Just do it slow so your body adjusts. It's not a race

Thank you !!!!! YOU must have bin to hell and my eyes water just thinking about your experences may have bin like. I do treat it as a RACE to get this stuff out of my body...but I can see that SLOW taper has to be way forward.

Can you kindly tell me if slowly reducing dose but keeping SAME frequency may work better. At moment make 0.5g bottle (I mix it with juce) last an hour and have an emergency bottle of 0.5g.

Thank you my friend

 

[deos68]

Thank you !!!!! YOU must have bin to hell and my eyes water just thinking about your experences may have bin like. I do treat it as a RACE to get this stuff out of my body...but I can see that SLOW taper has to be way forward.

Can you kindly tell me if slowly reducing dose but keeping SAME frequency may work better. At moment make 0.5g bottle (I mix it with juce) last an hour and have an emergency bottle of 0.5g.

Thank you my friend

how many doses do you take a day of .5G? for example if you take 10 a day start taking 9 then 8 then 7 continue your normal routine but just start taking one less dose
only you can tell if you are tapering to fast but then again this isnt a benzo taper for example where you do have to be meticulous with your dosings
and yeah this is gonna be a turtle race just calm and steady and dont think about it all day
understand that you are going through but dont dwell on it
distraction is also recommended take your doses, forget about it and go on about your day

 

[simon wolf]

that's quite an inventory for someone who is scared of pharma's lol
i can see the cause for concern but really mate you are prob making it worse for yourself by fearing the worst
which your anxiety can be blamed for that

i would taper slowly stay on 10g until you feel normal you will stabilize eventually then take a bit less until you are completely off
but you have to distinguish what you are exp is in fact WD or your own anxiety levels which is why you took kratom to begin with correct?

i personally dont like to taper because well its easy to relapse and trust me its easy to act on believing well...i can take a bit more and ill be fine...super easy to go back to square one

going CT with valium which is awesome that you have that, some Imodium.... with that combo... you wont even know wtf anxiety is, nor feel any WD haha
diazepam "could" help with the anxiety, depression, insomnia, RLS and "could" help with the aches and pains since valium has muscle relaxing properties
and the Imodium "could" help if you start exp stomach issues which is common

idk mate its up to you on what you wanna dohow many doses do you take a day of .5G? for example if you take 10 a day start taking 9 then 8 then 7 only you can tell if you are tapering to fast but then again this isnt a benzo taper for example where you do have to be meticulous with your dosings
and yeah this is gonna be a turtle race just calm and steady and dont think about it all day
understand that you are going through but dont dwell on it
distraction is also recommended take your doses, forget about it and go on about your day

Your good...your dead right... I took kratom to combat super super sensitivity and depression ..but more accurately I reckon paxil (10+ years) mashed my brain (discontinuity syndrome can make u propper propper sensitive me thinks) making pre existing depresson worse.. ..now I know I have to take responsibility for this AND my body. So am putting in all I can (during WD) ...diet. enzymes, cultures, herbs etc and managing my mind (when anxious as hell).

I do hope I am replying to your help properly....me get confused...thank you for helping.....eh...YES...I think because iam psychologically strong and physically crap...a slow taper is best in this case...Iam on 0.5g doses per hour. Thats why insomnia is biggest problem....more sleep...less kratom.

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

Hi Guys, seem to have some nice connections going on here. Thinking Kratom was a harmless "health" supplement and being an idiot I ended up quickly on a 8 month 40g/day Kratom habit. Just getting that down to 10g a day nearly killed me so I just cant imagine what some of you guys have been through ! But for little old me i have not known pain, anxiety, depression like this. I would describe it as dancing naked with my own death.

So. Now 10g per day (0.5g hourly in 20 bottles) I thought i had done the hard bit...but maybe not eh ? It gets harder from here in or no ?

So distressed just dont know what to say other than please help if you can. I'am on super healthy diet with enzymes and cultures, epsom salt baths, valeriam etc to try help...but the insomnia is unbearable. Just cant get to sleep and cant manage without sleep. BUT want to TRY doing this WITHOUT any other pharmaceutical (they now all scare me !!) ..is that possible ? Has it been done ? Any help would be very much appreciated. Seems to me the CT distress may cause MORE harm by increasing my anxiety/depression??

May I also ask what the worst case cold turkey may be if I was chained to a bed with someone helping me ? And if I have to taper..well...its getting tough at 0.5g per hour ! what go to 0.4 ?

Big thank you

I'm guessing of course but I think it may be the emotional anxiety that fear has caused that is the biggest factor rather than the Kratom itself that is the issue in your insomnia. I say this because I've been there and found a way out for the most part.

When I was at my most terrified I remembered my martial arts and meditation techniques that never really worked for me because I never was serious enough to really do them fully at the time. So when I was in my deepest fear, usually at night, I told myself the only thing I needed to do or could do or knew to do that would not harm me even if it didn't help me was breath. Deep diaphragmatic breathing. During the worst of it I would breath that way for four to six hours just to keep my mind from totally freaking out in fear. Then, within just a couple of days of that intense work I found myself finally calming and then getting short bouts of sleep. I used to do some relaxation CDs as i've always been a stressful guy and I went online and lucked into finding some really, for me at least, powerful relaxation hypnosis CDs. I would use them and find myself actually in semi blissful states when combined with my deep breathing, often falling asleep during the CDs so I'd put them on auto play and would catch cat naps all through the day. I'm lucky to be retired so I could do that. But I started to sleep three or four hours at night. Enough to get by.

Anyway that got things back to a place where I could start to at least continue my struggle with any hope of victory. I hope some of this resonates with you and might help. Best of luck, you don't walk that road alone.

 

[The Fish called J]

I'm working on it pal. Remember Camden. Think about it. I may have let you down with timing, but I never let you down and I ain't going to now. Stay safe bro! xx

 

[The Fish called J]

Hi Guys, seem to have some nice connections going on here. Thinking Kratom was a harmless "health" supplement and being an idiot I ended up quickly on a 8 month 40g/day Kratom habit. Just getting that down to 10g a day nearly killed me so I just cant imagine what some of you guys have been through ! But for little old me i have not known pain, anxiety, depression like this. I would describe it as dancing naked with my own death.

So. Now 10g per day (0.5g hourly in 20 bottles) I thought i had done the hard bit...but maybe not eh ? It gets harder from here in or no ?

So distressed just dont know what to say other than please help if you can. I'am on super healthy diet with enzymes and cultures, epsom salt baths, valeriam etc to try help...but the insomnia is unbearable. Just cant get to sleep and cant manage without sleep. BUT want to TRY doing this WITHOUT any other pharmaceutical (they now all scare me !!) ..is that possible ? Has it been done ? Any help would be very much appreciated. Seems to me the CT distress may cause MORE harm by increasing my anxiety/depression??

May I also ask what the worst case cold turkey may be if I was chained to a bed with someone helping me ? And if I have to taper..well...its getting tough at 0.5g per hour ! what go to 0.4 ?

Big thank you

Tapering might help, but riding out the Heeby Jeebies could be better. I'm here mate. Don't worry your nuts off about it. I'm here!

 

[The Fish called J]

Having trouble logging in and have to get the shopping and kidnap the Mrs. Wolf, you know how to get in touch. Just give me a shout mate. Always there. If it weren't for you I'd never had got rolling drunk with Amy Winehouse. Lost her bloody numer and address. I'm such a dickhead!

 

[simon wolf]

I'm guessing of course but I think it may be the emotional anxiety that fear has caused that is the biggest factor rather than the Kratom itself that is the issue in your insomnia. I say this because I've been there and found a way out for the most part.

When I was at my most terrified I remembered my martial arts and meditation techniques that never really worked for me because I never was serious enough to really do them fully at the time. So when I was in my deepest fear, usually at night, I told myself the only thing I needed to do or could do or knew to do that would not harm me even if it didn't help me was breath. Deep diaphragmatic breathing. During the worst of it I would breath that way for four to six hours just to keep my mind from totally freaking out in fear. Then, within just a couple of days of that intense work I found myself finally calming and then getting short bouts of sleep. I used to do some relaxation CDs as i've always been a stressful guy and I went online and lucked into finding some really, for me at least, powerful relaxation hypnosis CDs. I would use them and find myself actually in semi blissful states when combined with my deep breathing, often falling asleep during the CDs so I'd put them on auto play and would catch cat naps all through the day. I'm lucky to be retired so I could do that. But I started to sleep three or four hours at night. Enough to get by.

Anyway that got things back to a place where I could start to at least continue my struggle with any hope of victory. I hope some of this resonates with you and might help. Best of luck, you don't walk that road alone.

Yes yes yes..and thank you...that resonates brilliantly ! FEAR is the big issue..fear of not getting better..fear of depression returning big style etc i gotta control my breath and keep my mind quiert then.....would love to know if your music is available on say ebay ? IF not would appreciate anyone suggesting an easy to buy (iam compromsed) BINAURIAL beats relaxation CD..mpf....balances brain hemispheres...mmhh..ok..sounds like hypnosis music very similar thing. Wait..just remembered..you need head phones that separate one frequency to one ear and the other to the other ear kinda thing....the difference in the "beat frequency..for simplicity) apparently balances the brain...bit like mindgym which me have bin told is excellent ? Thank you my friend !!

 

[simon wolf]

I'm working on it pal. Remember Camden. Think about it. I may have let you down with timing, but I never let you down and I ain't going to now. Stay safe bro! xx

Jeff, I have only wonderful memories of you and all the caper you so brilliantly executed. Spoke to Therese month ago...she has very fond memories of YOU also

 

[simon wolf]

Tapering might help, but riding out the Heeby Jeebies could be better. I'm here mate. Don't worry your nuts off about it. I'm here!

me physcologically strong jeff but emotional spent...as mentioned earlier in thread....CT seems to set me back. Insomnia seems to be main target now...after all the fantastic people on this site (above) have helped so much..not just the ideas..but that they found the time to help a brother eh

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

Yes yes yes..and thank you...that resonates brilliantly ! FEAR is the big issue..fear of not getting better..fear of depression returning big style etc i gotta control my breath and keep my mind quiert then.....would love to know if your music is available on say ebay ? IF not would appreciate anyone suggesting an easy to buy (iam compromsed) BINAURIAL beats relaxation CD..mpf....balances brain hemispheres...mmhh..ok..sounds like hypnosis music very similar thing. Wait..just remembered..you need head phones that separate one frequency to one ear and the other to the other ear kinda thing....the difference in the "beat frequency..for simplicity) apparently balances the brain...bit like mindgym which me have bin told is excellent ? Thank you my friend !!

I've used so many but only a few really did it for me. By the way the binaural beat stuff was not that helpful for me.

Here's some that did work very well for me.

Relieve Stress by Belleruth Naparstek. (Really great with four excellent hypno sessions)
Hypnosis for Deep Sleep, Relaxation and Confidence. (right up there with Glenn Harrold but less new agey)
A Guided Meditation for Relaxation, Well Being and Healing by Glenn Harrold. ( amazing hypnotic voice on this guy)

You really do need earbuds or headphones. At times I used these up to 6 times a day at the worst of my stress. Now I use them once or twice and it's really the best part of my day. You can get ADDICTED!!!

 

[simon wolf]

I've used so many but only a few really did it for me. By the way the binaural beat stuff was not that helpful for me.

Here's some that did work very well for me.

Relieve Stress by Belleruth Naparstek. (Really great with four excellent hypno sessions)
Hypnosis for Deep Sleep, Relaxation and Confidence. (right up there with Glenn Harrold but less new agey)
A Guided Meditation for Relaxation, Well Being and Healing by Glenn Harrold. ( amazing hypnotic voice on this guy)

You really do need earbuds or headphones. At times I used these up to 6 times a day at the worst of my stress. Now I use them once or twice and it's really the best part of my day. You can get ADDICTED!!!

Oh mate..thats encouraging thank you ! Will go hear samples and order..seems to be a case of ANYTHING that will just help a little...however much. Main concern now is sleeping. Will now post update to you and all the kind folk on this thread.

 

[simon wolf]

UPDATE

Thank you lovely people for being there at the worst time of my life. I so want to be well and be there for others just like you have.

Guys, your ideas are definitely helping. With your ideas I can get to say 8.30pm on 5g...( 40g 14 days ago). BUT the massive stress off not sleeping doubles my intake of Kratom during the night. So I'am kinda around the 10g mark because of sleep issues. You will remember I am very very fearful of more pharmaceuticals....and have been using zimovane (prescription sleep aids and Valerian didnt touch me). Night of distress. But progress made. So one question I would like to ask is....is my chances of being left reliant on a sleeping pill reduced if I can find sleeping pills that work on the body in different ways ? Have one kind one night..another the next ?

NB: so far iam using the above sleep aids epsom salt hot bath, lavender, relaxing music soon, incense, clean bed, BREATHING, trying to manage my mind. Please try forgive me if I have forgotten any of your suggestions or maybe someone has other ideas ?