Opioids Kratom Kindling questions

[Mycophile]

Kindling definitely occurs with Benzodiazepines according to Research. Cocaine use Primes your Tolerance meaning when you lose it all and use again Tolerance rises fast. I believe a lot of heavy Opioid Users have experienced withdrawals from being clean for years and one day use of a small dose to get high/help pain.

Ummm, ok, but no offense, this thread has nothing to do with benzos or coke, and I'm not talking about kindling as it refers to WD, only tolerance, though those are related.

Everyone knows kindling can occur with a number of substances, but it happening this quickly in regards to Kratom SPECIFICALLY is unusual for me, so only really experienced Kratom users will probably be able to answer the kinds of questions I'm asking.

Have you used Kratom before?

No offense, but some of your comments make it sound like you aren't very experienced with it.

Like, I've used it on and off for a few years and your post before was making comments about severity of WD and rare cases of liver problems, neither of which really relates to what I'm talking about (I mean WD KIND of does but I didn't have questions about WD), and the comment about tolerance rising if you don't take a month off between doses seemed odd considering no one I've ever talked to only takes one or 2 doses a month...

Sorry if I'm being pissy lol...I'm in a weird mood, but I really only want responses from experienced users...

 

[Sertürner]

Kindling definitely occurs with Benzodiazepines according to Research. Cocaine use Primes your Tolerance meaning when you lose it all and use again Tolerance rises fast. I believe a lot of heavy Opioid Users have experienced withdrawals from being clean for years and one day use of a small dose to get high/help pain.

Like JA said, kindling is a phenomenon that relates to the GABA system and involves glutaminergic storms due to sensitization of the the fine balance between the GABA/Glutamate systems. But the OP was referring to kindling in another sense, it was maybe not the technical word for what is happening, but kindling is often used to describe this phenomenon with opiates as well. I posted a link about true kindling from opioids but I cannot find a better word to use for it. @Jekyl Anhydride is there a proper term for this that I am missing or blanking on?

 

[Mycophile]

Like JA said, kindling is a phenomenon that relates to the GABA system and involves glutaminergic storms due to sensitization of the the fine balance between the GABA/Glutamate systems. But the OP was referring to kindling in another sense, it was maybe not the technical word for what is happening, but kindling is often used to describe this phenomenon with opiates as well. I posted a link about true kindling from opioids but I cannot find a better word to use for it. @Jekyl Anhydride is there a proper term for this that I am missing or blanking on?

Yeah, I think what I am talking about might not really be true "kindling" as I think that has more to do with getting worse WD from less use when returning to using a substance after a while, and not necessarily increased tolerance so quickly.

So I don't want us to get hung up on the word "kindling", cause I am not sure if I used it right.

 

[Mycophile]

At this point I'm getting pissed off because this shitty headshop Kratom is barely even fucking working.

I've NEVER experienced such a rapid tolerance increase to ANY substance so quickly in my entire life, and I have plenty of experience with Kratom and this is HIGHLY abnormal.

Now I am on 12.5 grams and it feels about the same strength or perhaps even weaker than 3.5 grams felt TWO WEEKS AGO.

Less than one week ago a 6 gram dose felt CONSIDERABLY stronger than this.

Can anyone explain this??

Could it really be that the Kratom I used 6 months ago was just SOOO much stronger?

I mean, even if thats true, why would it make my tolerance sky rocket like this??

Like, when I stopped Kratom 6 months before my last dose was 11.25 grams...so LESS than I am on right now, of probably very superior Kratom.

What the hell is going on??!!!

How can my tolerance IMMEDIATELY shoot up to being HIGHER than it was before??

It literally took ONE YEAR for my tolerance to get that high last time.

I'd stopped Kratom for 11 months and started taking it again in January of 2018 at 2.5 grams a dose...and it wasn't till I stopped in December of 2018 that my tolerance was 11.25 grams a dose.

Then I stopped for 6 months and started again LESS THAN A MONTH AGO...and it's gone from 2.5 grams to 12.5 grams in THREE AND A HALF WEEKS!!!

Do I have some kind of PERMANENT TOLERANCE or what???

Do any Kratom experts know how to bring back Kratom's effectiveness?

Do you think if I go and get the superior old Kratom that I have stashed at my friend's house that I was using before that it will start working again??

I have always heard that headshop Kratom is weak and I think maybe this shit is just really weak and somehow my body now remembers what Kratom was like physiologically speaking and recognizes that this Kratom is weak and wants the old stuff somehow.

And yet,I think I should stop taking it anyways because my use always escalates and I get WD, so I probably won't even have my friend mail me some of my stash to find out...but if I do decide I am determined to find a way to get it to work again I guess that's what I'll do.

Kratom is some weird shit when it comes to how the body reacts to it. I just don't understand it.

If anyone understands why this could be happening or why Kratom behaves so weirdly sometimes let me know...

 

[Sertürner]

The headshop kratom is subpar on purpose @Mycophile. Many vendors, large ones with excellent kratom, sell cheap low quality kratom at the shops because it is a quick buck. The owners of a lot of these kratom businesses have groups where their good product is sold in bulk for other vendors. It is a large network of people. I know quite a few of them actually. Some are even growing in TX right now. Dont buy the headshop kratom. You end up spending a ton of money of bad product, as you are already aware. It is much more cost effective to go through your friend that holds the kratom for you. The shops are a scam, it makes kratom look bad too. High quality kratom is much cheaper than smoke shop stuff by far.

 

[Mycophile]

The headshop kratom is subpar on purpose @Mycophile. Many vendors, large ones with excellent kratom, sell cheap low quality kratom at the shops because it is a quick buck. The owners of a lot of these kratom businesses have groups where their good product is sold in bulk for other vendors. It is a large network of people. I know quite a few of them actually. Some are even growing in TX right now. Dont buy the headshop kratom. You end up spending a ton of money of bad product, as you are already aware. It is much more cost effective to go through your friend that holds the kratom for you. The shops are a scam, it makes kratom look bad too. High quality kratom is much cheaper than smoke shop stuff by far.

Thanks. Yeah, I can just feel how bad this shit is, and it's weird cause I'm paying for poor quality stuff when I have really good stuff FOR FREE my friend can send me, but I feel conflicted because I feel like I shouldn't be using Kratom now as it always leads to bad withdrawals and like I should stop, and if I ask my friend to mail me some of my stash I will feel invested in using it and NOT quitting again...but that is all on me unfortunately so I have to decide...

Still....what do you think is up with my tolerance shooting up so fast?

What about this as a theory: perhaps my brain and body somehow remember my past tolerance to Kratom and there's some kind of complex biochemical stuff that goes on when I take a long break that is hard to explain. So I'd been taking 11.25 grams a dose 6 months ago and stopped.

Then my tolerance went down and when I started again a month ago 2.5 grams was enough (even with it being that weak)....but maybe upon more exposure to it somehow my body suddenly remembered what Kratom was and became aware on some biochemical/physiological level how weak this Kratom was in comparison to the other stuff and wanting more?

Could that happen??

Like almost like if someone was regularly drinking high quality whisky...quit drinking for a while, lost their tolerance, then went back to drinking, but only shitty light beer....and maybe for a little while the light beer is doing the trick cause the person hasn't been drinking for so long, but then once they start really throwing them back and their tolerance returns it's like their body realizes it's not whisky but just light beer, and suddenly their tolerance shoots up and starts wanting the high quality whisky again???

I mean, that's a bad metaphor as I don't think that could happen with alcohol, but we all know that Kratom is a VERY fickle substance and people react oddly, so perhaps that is sort of what's going on?

Would that even make sense on a chemical level? Some kind of permanent tolerance relating to the body and brain's memory of what superior Kratom is like once being re-exposed to it for a while?

 

[Mycophile]

Now someone on a Reddit Kratom forum told me this happened to them before: that they stopped and started Kratom several times and it just got worse each time, and that at one point they stopped for however long, and then started again, and in one month they went from either 18 grams a day or a dose (I assume they meant a day but they didn't clarify) to 35 grams a dose/ or a day in ONE MONTH only...and had to quit for that reason.

He said that the receptors behave differently each time you start and stop.

Could i have PERMANENTLY ruined Kratom for myself by using such obscene doses so many times to the point that now I will NEVER be able to keep my tolerance under control?

How could it be that one could completely ruin Kratom for oneself to the point that one's receptors and tolerance are PERMANENTLY shot and they can never really enjoy using it again and keep their tolerance under control?

Is there NO WAY to control that kind of thing?

Any answers from any true Kratom experts would be appreciated.

 

[Jekyl Anhydride]

Involvement of multiple opiate receptors in opioid kindling - PubMed

D-Tyr-Ser-Gly-Phe-Leu-Thr (DSLET), beta-endorphin, morphiceptin and morphine were microinjected at 48-h intervals into the amygdala or hippocampus of awake rats in an attempt to identify the opiate receptor types involved in opioid kindling. DSLET, beta-endorphin, morphiceptin and morphine were...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Check this out, true kindling from opioids.
It involves different pathways though and is very interesting. It is off topic from the thread but kindling does indeed occur with opioids. This study was done with mice though so take it with a grain of salt.

The thing about opioid kindling is that one of the three receptor agonists has to be injected straight into different areas of the brain. Systemic circulation won't do it.

Thus, convulsions can be kindled by activation of either mu-, delta- or epsilon-receptors when opioids are injected directly into limbic tissue. However, the ability of these compounds to kindle seizures is markedly reduced when they are administered into ventricle.

 

[Jekyl Anhydride]

Now someone on a Reddit Kratom forum told me this happened to them before....

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Kratom (Mitragyna speciosa) drug profile | www.emcdda.europa.eu

www.emcdda.europa.eu

"Aside from mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine,
the phytochemicals isolated from various parts of the tree include over 40 structurally related alkaloids as well as several flavonoids, terpenoid saponins, polyphenols, and various glycosides."

"Mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine, the two alkaloids mainly responsible for the effects of kratom, are selective and full agonists of the μ-subtype opioid receptor (MOR).

In addition, 5-HT2a and postsynaptic α2-adrenergic receptors, as well as neuronal Ca2+ channels are also involved in the unique pharmacological and behavioral activity of mitragynine."

Besides being made up of a myriad of varying levels of the main active alkaloids, other influencing factors on the plant are at work depending on strain, growing conditions, soil type, fertility, harvesting, processing and transport conditions.

Kratom can't be considered a classic opioid by any sense of the word either..

With full & partial agonists, serotonin systems and adrenergic + Calcium channels are involved, anyone trying to make a blanket statement about kratom is greatly lacking in understanding of it.

It would be akin to saying all cannabis is exactly the same. When I smoke a gram a day for a week I can't get high and therefore everyone reacts exactly like I do.

Even the metabolic differences between individuals can cause moderate changes. Trying to listen to what one person says about it and expecting yourself to react identically is unsound.

I would get a high quality batch of well mixed/ homoginized kratom if you intend to continue using, vs stressing out over other peoples experiences that don't match your own.

 

[Mycophile]

-----------

Kratom (Mitragyna speciosa) drug profile | www.emcdda.europa.eu

www.emcdda.europa.eu

Besides being made up of a myriad of varying levels of the main active alkaloids, other influencing factors on the plant are at work depending on strain, growing conditions, soil type, fertility, harvesting, processing and transport conditions.

Kratom can't be considered a classic opioid by any sense of the word either..

With full & partial agonists, serotonin systems and adrenergic + Calcium channels are involved, anyone trying to make a blanket statement about kratom is greatly lacking in understanding of it.

It would be akin to saying all cannabis is exactly the same. When I smoke a gram a day for a week I can't get high and therefore everyone reacts exactly like I do.

Even the metabolic differences between individuals can cause moderate changes. Trying to listen to what one person says about it and expecting yourself to react identically is unsound.

I would get a high quality batch of well mixed/ homoginized kratom if you intend to continue using, vs stressing out over other peoples experiences that don't match your own.

Yeah, I mean, I think I am going to take a break, but if I use again (which I will eventually I'm sure), I'll have my friend mail me some of my high quality stuff.


Everyone on several different Reddit Kratom forums is stelling me I have fucked my Kratom tolerance PERMANENTLY, and that most likely I will never be able to consistently get good effects from it again.

This is beyond depressing.

They are all saying that unless I use something like Naltrexone that everytime I go back to using my tolerance will skyrocket again and again, that this is a well known phenomena and chances are I've ruined Kratom for myself permanently.

Do you really think this is true?

Do you think I should try to see if I can get and use Naltrexone, or would you first just try another strain of Kratom?

 

[Jack123456]

Why would you want to use naltrexone in combination with Kratom if you want to get high? Can't see the sense in that.

Just try another strain, or try using your better batch. Try staying at a consistent dose and space out the time between using (not only tolerance break but also in periods when you are using more regularly).

 

[Mycophile]

Why would you want to use naltrexone in combination with Kratom if you want to get high? Can't see the sense in that.

Just try another strain, or try using your better batch. Try staying at a consistent dose and space out the time between using (not only tolerance break but also in periods when you are using more regularly).

I don't know much about Naltrexone, nothing really, but some guy on Reddit told me that that is one of the best ways to regain tolerance if you have really messed up your opioid receptors: to take Naltrexone for a while and it will reset any sort of "permanent tolerance" that develops.

Is he wrong?

Why is there no sense in that?

Yeah, if I decide I'm not taking a long break this month then I will try some of my other batch, or at the least certainly at some point I will, and I have something like 14 different strains of all kinds of this better batch so I would have a lot of variety.

I mean, I am still high now and can still get high, but it's just so bizarre going from 3 grams to 14 a dose in a single month and it's messing with my head lol.