Opioids Kratom Kindling questions

[Mycophile]

I know I could have posted this in the Kratom megathread but wanted to hear people's answers more quickly.

I stopped using Kratom for almost 6 months and then took it again for the 1st time in 6 months about 3--3 1/2 weeks ago, and I can't believe how quickly my tolerance is rising and want to see if there's anything I can do about it like Agamantine, Cat's Claw, Black Pepper and other potentiators (I have all right now and could try them) and also see if anyone else has experienced their tolerance rise THIS QUICKLY...cause this has never happened so fast to me.

When I stopped Kratom 6 months ago I was taking 11.25 gram doses, about 3 days a week and it was causing WD.

When I started again about 3.5 weeks ago I was responding well to 3 gram doses, and even before this last weekend, 3.5 gram doses were still usually effecting me pretty well, but because Kratom is weird, some days it wouldn't and I'd take between 4--5.5 grams.


Then I took Kratom 5 days in a row last week, which I don't usually let myself do, and my last dose on Sunday night I took 6 grams and it got me REALLY high.

I took 2 days off, and started today with 4.25 grams and it had little effect.

I took another gram, little effect, then another with little effect, and now I'm on 7 grams, and still feel like this dose is weaker than 3.5 grams felt to me 2 weeks ago.

How is my tolerance rising THIS QUICKLY??

It's never gone up this fast.

Is this what people refer to as "kindling"?

I mean, my intention was/is not even to "get back into using Kratom", because I have had issues with it in the past, but just to enjoy some for a few weeks and then take another long break.

I have trouble not compulsively redosing though when my doses don't get me as high as I want.

I should also mention that this is certainly inferior Kratom to what I used 6 months earlier, and this is head shop Kratom, whereas that superior Kratom my friend is holding for me now, and I could get it from him, but my intention is not to really continue binging on Kratom for much longer.


So....has anyone else's tolerance returned THAT QUICKLY because of a 5 (or however many) day Kratom binge, and what would you suggest (other than not raising my dose more...) to get it to go back down again or at least not get any higher?

Thanks.

 

[Mycophile]

Like, seriously, this seems abnormally fast for my tolerance to go up.

Someone on another forum was just like "oh yeah, that happens with all substances, your tolerance comes back quickly after a break", but not THIS quickly.

I stopped for almost a year and it took a long time for my tolerance to go back up, it didn't DOUBLE in like two weeks.

Does anyone think cats claw, Agmatine or Black Pepper will work?

And I can't really take Kratom on an empty stomach because I get too jittery as I am addicted to coffee and end up needing that too and coffee and Kratom with zero food just doesn't go well for me.

 

[murx12]

are taking any medication? mirtazapine seemed to make my tolerance go up in insane speeds. i consumed roughly 15g per day 2 years without mirtazapine, then made a 3 months break. then i started to take mirtazapine and started kratom again. after 2 weeks my tolerance was already at 15g per day and after 1-2 months i was at 50g. it was insane. but generally its normal that after a pause your tolerance goes up quite fast the the level it was before. Agmatine is afaik a nmda antagonist so it will help.
you could always mix your kratom with a couple drops (as little as possible) of vodka so you can consume it on a full stomach. but dont become an alcoholic obviously.
Oh and what you want to do in regards to the coffee: drink it before you eat. make your kratom vodka solution and drink it. because the alkalois are soluble in alcohol they will be absorbed in you stomach lining. another trick for reducing tolerance is magnesium bisglycinat.

 

[Jekyl Anhydride]

I would look to the substandard headshop Kratom as a likely cause. You might have a mixture of varied quality that isn't well homogenized. Seeking out high quality kratom before trying different potentiation tricks or looking into strange reactions physically is probably your best bet.

Esp if you haven't experienced odd tachyphylaxis like this before with strange boosts of potency in different areas of your mix.

Kindling is a term for increasing difficulty of WD from high and /or long term benzo, sedative, or EtOH doses. It has to do with spikes of Glutamate that opioids can't cause.

Kindling due to substance withdrawal refers to the neurological condition which results from repeated withdrawal episodes from sedative–hypnotic drugs such as alcohol and benzodiazepines. Individuals who have had more withdrawal episodes are at an increased risk of very severe withdrawal symptoms, up to and including seizures and death. Long-term use of GABAergic-acting sedative–hypnotic drugs causes chronic GABA receptor downregulation as well as glutamate overactivity, which can lead to drug and neurotransmitter sensitization, central nervous system hyperexcitability, and excitotoxicity.

 

[Jack123456]

Have you been using the same batch or bought new Kratom? Because batches sometimes vary in potency.
I used grapefruit juice for a while to potentiate, but honestly it was probably just placebo, didn't really add much for me.
Otherwise I unfortunately have no idea. Maybe I have a weird body but I've been using Kratom daily for years and can't say I've experienced rising tolerance.

 

[Sertürner]

I have noticed this as well. I took kratom after getting off opiates and it helped tremendously. After about a year and a half I had to move to Indiana for a job. Since it was illegal in that state i had no access to it. The WDs weren't terrible but it was uncomfortable for a few days. I was taking ~20g a day at that time. Fast forward an entire year without kratom (I actually had it one time in Indiana, 3oz, but that doesn't affects what happened IMO) and I moved back to TX and started kratom again. The first 3 days or so I was incredibly high off it but within less than a week I was needing higher doses than I had ever needed, 30g+ a day.
This fast rising tolerance after abstinence extends into many drugs, especially opiates and alcohol IME.

Kindling if I'm not mistaken, and please correct me if I am, will produce faster onset of WD as well as rapid tolerance increases. This applies to opiates in that a lot of users will have a "2 day rule" so that they will not be subjected to WD after hitting the 3 day mark. With kratom I have not noticed noticed this effect, only the rapid tolerance build up. Although I mentioned in another thread or PM to someone that the kratom WD was very weird for me. Sometimes I would be extremely uncomfortable if I didnt have it, other times I would feel totally fine for 2 or 3 days without it.

 

[Jack123456]

I have noticed this as well. I took kratom after getting off opiates and it helped tremendously. After about a year and a half I had to move to Indiana for a job. Since it was illegal in that state i had no access to it. The WDs weren't terrible but it was uncomfortable for a few days. I was taking ~20g a day at that time. Fast forward an entire year without kratom (I actually had it one time in Indiana, 3oz, but that doesn't affects what happened IMO) and I moved back to TX and started kratom again. The first 3 days or so I was incredibly high off it but within less than a week I was needing higher doses than I had ever needed, 30g+ a day.
This fast rising tolerance after abstinence extends into many drugs, especially opiates and alcohol IME.

Kindling if I'm not mistaken, and please correct me if I am, will produce faster onset of WD as well as rapid tolerance increases. This applies to opiates in that a lot of users will have a "2 day rule" so that they will not be subjected to WD after hitting the 3 day mark. With kratom I have not noticed noticed this effect, only the rapid tolerance build up. Although I mentioned in another thread or PM to someone that the kratom WD was very weird for me. Sometimes I would be extremely uncomfortable if I didnt have it, other times I would feel totally fine for 2 or 3 days without it.

Did you notice your tolerance rising somewhat steadily even before quitting? Is it really that weird that I don't really notice any/much tolerance in my Kratom usage?

 

[Sertürner]

Did you notice your tolerance rising somewhat steadily even before quitting? Is it really that weird that I don't really notice any/much tolerance in my Kratom usage?

Yeah I definitely noticed it rising while taking it. I started out at a few teaspoons a day, maybe 2 or 3 (~10g a day) and after a few weeks I had to start increasing my midday or nighttime doses. The morning dose was/is always the best dose for me and I didnt have to increase that for a while. After taking it for so long tolerance is noticeable and that happy go lucky state of mind starts to go away even if the pain relief is just as effective. It took a lot longer for the analgesic effect to diminish though.

 

[Sertürner]

Oh @Mycophile I have tried quite a few potentiators and have not really benefited from them in regards to kratom. YMMV though so let me know if you come across one that works for you.

 

[Jack123456]

Hm, well, maybe I AM weird?
I started with really high doses and maybe didn't come to the nodding stage quite so quickly, but besides that I've rather gone down over the years then up and still feel satisfying effects.

 

[Mycophile]

are taking any medication? mirtazapine seemed to make my tolerance go up in insane speeds. i consumed roughly 15g per day 2 years without mirtazapine, then made a 3 months break. then i started to take mirtazapine and started kratom again. after 2 weeks my tolerance was already at 15g per day and after 1-2 months i was at 50g. it was insane. but generally its normal that after a pause your tolerance goes up quite fast the the level it was before. Agmatine is afaik a nmda antagonist so it will help.
you could always mix your kratom with a couple drops (as little as possible) of vodka so you can consume it on a full stomach. but dont become an alcoholic obviously.
Oh and what you want to do in regards to the coffee: drink it before you eat. make your kratom vodka solution and drink it. because the alkalois are soluble in alcohol they will be absorbed in you stomach lining. another trick for reducing tolerance is magnesium bisglycinat.

I'm not taking any meds I wasn't taking in the past when i used Kratom, and I don't think that it is typical for me for tolerance to return even CLOSE to that fast.

I also don't want to drink in order to make the Kratom stronger, I mean I drink too much already.

I could try the magensium but how is magnesium "bsglycinat" (never heard that word before) different from regular magnesium?

 

[Mycophile]

I would look to the substandard headshop Kratom as a likely cause. You might have a mixture of varied quality that isn't well homogenized. Seeking out high quality kratom before trying different potentiation tricks or looking into strange reactions physically is probably your best bet.

Esp if you haven't experienced odd tachyphylaxis like this before with strange boosts of potency in different areas of your mix.

Kindling is a term for increasing difficulty of WD from high and /or long term benzo, sedative, or EtOH doses. It has to do with spikes of Glutamate that opioids can't cause.

Yeah, I think the substandard Kratom is a big part of it.

My friend has my good Kratom and I could ask him to mail me some and I'm thinking about it, but then again I feel like I shouldn't be using Kratom at the moment any way and should stop again soon, so I feel conflicted about asking him to mail me any because I feel I shouldn't be using it at all because I have had problems with it in the past.

Do you think that quality of kratom varies THAT much?

It seems many do.

But would it really matter in the sense that regardless of strength isn't it still odd that my tolerance for these strains has gone up so fast?

And what is "tachyphylaxis"?

Is it something to be worried about?

That sounds like a big scary medical word hahaha.

 

[Mycophile]

Have you been using the same batch or bought new Kratom? Because batches sometimes vary in potency.
I used grapefruit juice for a while to potentiate, but honestly it was probably just placebo, didn't really add much for me.
Otherwise I unfortunately have no idea. Maybe I have a weird body but I've been using Kratom daily for years and can't say I've experienced rising tolerance.

Yes, this is different and most likely far inferior Kratom to what I used months earlier, and which my friend is holding for me.

I am considering having him mail me some but feel conflicted as I feel I shouldn't even be using Kratom at all now because I have had problems with it in the past.

It's true that I can tell this stuff is sub par in comparison to what I used before, but still, tolerance rising so fast to any strain seems weird.

And yes, you are unusual for your tolerance not to go up, but then again, my tolerance has never gone up even close to THIS fast.

 

[Mycophile]

I have noticed this as well. I took kratom after getting off opiates and it helped tremendously. After about a year and a half I had to move to Indiana for a job. Since it was illegal in that state i had no access to it. The WDs weren't terrible but it was uncomfortable for a few days. I was taking ~20g a day at that time. Fast forward an entire year without kratom (I actually had it one time in Indiana, 3oz, but that doesn't affects what happened IMO) and I moved back to TX and started kratom again. The first 3 days or so I was incredibly high off it but within less than a week I was needing higher doses than I had ever needed, 30g+ a day.
This fast rising tolerance after abstinence extends into many drugs, especially opiates and alcohol IME.

Kindling if I'm not mistaken, and please correct me if I am, will produce faster onset of WD as well as rapid tolerance increases. This applies to opiates in that a lot of users will have a "2 day rule" so that they will not be subjected to WD after hitting the 3 day mark. With kratom I have not noticed noticed this effect, only the rapid tolerance build up. Although I mentioned in another thread or PM to someone that the kratom WD was very weird for me. Sometimes I would be extremely uncomfortable if I didnt have it, other times I would feel totally fine for 2 or 3 days without it.

So, even though honestly I feel I shouldn't be using Kratom at the moment because of my past issues with it...what would you suggest in the meantime so that my tolerance doesn't go up more?

I tried all those potentiators today (Cats Claw, Agmatine and Black Pepper) and they did NOTHING.

Again, I DO think my kratom I did before, which my friend is holding kilos of about 90 mins away from me, was FAR superior to this stuff, so I guess probably if I asked him to mail me some I would need less of that for the same effect, but I am torn on whether or not I want to ask him to because I feel I am better off not using Kratom right now at all because I have had issues with WD in the past and can never maintain using it for long (I won't ever take it more than 3 days a week if possible...preferably 2...)

For the sake of argument, do you think trying my other, probably superior Kratom, would mean I'd need less, and that headshop Kratom is often weaker and that strength in strains varies that much?

What, if anything, did you do to get your tolerance back or to stop it from rising more when you experienced that problem??

I mean, I have experienced tolerance going up before but nothing REMOTELY this fast, not even close.

I am on 7.5 grams now and 2 weeks ago I was higher than I am now off 3.5 grams, and just 4 days ago I was FAR higher off 6 grams than I am now.

This makes me want to take more of course...and I'm concerned with the WD getting bad like in the past, but then again, shouldn't weaker Kratom also = weaker WD??

 

[Echotango]

Yeah there are very few Kratom Websites that are actually good most places Sell Garbage Quality unfortunately. All I know is with Kratom especially everyone is different. I read a Post on a Forum about a guy who took it and began to get Liver Failure due to the Drug not being able to be metabolized by his body which a small amount of the population has experienced this problem where the Kratom just keeps building up and the Liver can't Detox it.

Kratom can have some very nasty Withdrawals since from what I Read it seems all the Alkaloids that are different in it cause a worse withdrawal but that was just a Post I read making a theory, as a lot of people complain of bad Withdrawals but it depends on the Dose your using Daily. If it's a weak Opiate and your using higher and higher Doses it can Result in a bad Withdrawal and the more you use it the quicker your Tolerance rises especially if your only giving like a week or Days between use instead of like a month minimum it's hard to say what the problem could be but good luck I hope the best for you.

 

[Mycophile]

Yeah there are very few Kratom Websites that are actually good most places Sell Garbage Quality unfortunately. All I know is with Kratom especially everyone is different. I read a Post on a Forum about a guy who took it and began to get Liver Failure due to the Drug not being able to be metabolized by his body which a small amount of the population has experienced this problem where the Kratom just keeps building up and the Liver can't Detox it.

Kratom can have some very nasty Withdrawals since from what I Read it seems all the Alkaloids that are different in it cause a worse withdrawal but that was just a Post I read making a theory, as a lot of people complain of bad Withdrawals but it depends on the Dose your using Daily. If it's a weak Opiate and your using higher and higher Doses it can Result in a bad Withdrawal and the more you use it the quicker your Tolerance rises especially if your only giving like a week or Days between use instead of like a month minimum it's hard to say what the problem could be but good luck I hope the best for you.

Really Kratom WD is not that bad for MOST people, and I am overly sensitive to WD in comparison to most of the people on this forum, and when I have gotten WD it's because I really just use too much, and even then it's only been what I PERSONALLY consider bad for 3 days and mild for 2, but overall I end up at a point where I need to stop whenever I use it for too long so I'm not trying to let that happen again.

Other people who have gotten really bad WD that lasts longer usually use it for long periods of time which i don't do. Everyone responds differently, but I think you are reading a lot of the reports from people who used it for much longer periods than I have if you are hearing that the WD is so nasty. I am overly sensitive to it.

It is also HIGHLY unusual amongst Kratom users to go a month between doses LOL. I am one of the few people that does that kind of thing. I'm abnormal I'd say in that I even take a few days off between doses in comparison to people around here who use it daily. Sounds like you are making some assumptions about it without knowing a lot first hand, no offense.

And yes, it's a very small proportion of the population that seems to have liver problems from Kratom and I don't think Kratom itself causes it.

Have you ever used Kratom yourself?

Because from the way you are posting it sounds like you haven't, no offense.

 

[Sertürner]

@Mycophile the only things I can say really work for restting tolerance to kratom are abstinence and if you cant do that, try using Stem and Vein kratom for a week or so instead of pure powdered leaf. The stem and vein is considerably less potent but will take the edge off and allow your body to adjust to the low potency. Switching strains helps too of course. I have 6kg right now of all different strains that I rotate constantly and it has definitely helped.

 

[Sertürner]

I would look to the substandard headshop Kratom as a likely cause. You might have a mixture of varied quality that isn't well homogenized. Seeking out high quality kratom before trying different potentiation tricks or looking into strange reactions physically is probably your best bet.

Esp if you haven't experienced odd tachyphylaxis like this before with strange boosts of potency in different areas of your mix.

Kindling is a term for increasing difficulty of WD from high and /or long term benzo, sedative, or EtOH doses. It has to do with spikes of Glutamate that opioids can't cause.

Involvement of multiple opiate receptors in opioid kindling - PubMed

D-Tyr-Ser-Gly-Phe-Leu-Thr (DSLET), beta-endorphin, morphiceptin and morphine were microinjected at 48-h intervals into the amygdala or hippocampus of awake rats in an attempt to identify the opiate receptor types involved in opioid kindling. DSLET, beta-endorphin, morphiceptin and morphine were...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Check this out, true kindling from opioids.
It involves different pathways though and is very interesting. It is off topic from the thread but kindling does indeed occur with opioids. This study was done with mice though so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Echotango]

Kindling definitely occurs with Benzodiazepines according to Research. Cocaine use Primes your Tolerance meaning when you lose it all and use again Tolerance rises fast. I believe a lot of heavy Opioid Users have experienced withdrawals from being clean for years and one day use of a small dose to get high/help pain.

 

[Sertürner]

I'm not taking any meds I wasn't taking in the past when i used Kratom, and I don't think that it is typical for me for tolerance to return even CLOSE to that fast.

I also don't want to drink in order to make the Kratom stronger, I mean I drink too much already.

I could try the magensium but how is magnesium "bsglycinat" (never heard that word before) different from regular magnesium?

I take magnesium glycinate. It is more bioavailable than magnesium oxide and thus works better for its smooth muscle relaxation as opposed to magnesium oxide, which just passes through the GI tract and helps clear out your intestines.