Opioids Kratom abstinence to 'reset' opiate tolerance

[MysticBrew]

Hello everyone, new bluelight user here, long time lurker.

I have a question that I do not think can be obviously answered by anybody, but after finding many varying answers in my researches the past couple of days, I thought I should pose the question myself, to see what knowledge and experience the current bl community may have to offer. Before I ask it, I think I should say a bit about my recent use of kratom, which I am now three days completely clean from.

Put briefly, I had been a daily kratom user for somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-3 years. When I say daily, I mean DAILY. I don't think I took a break from it a single day in all that time. At most I would use close to an ounce a day (on rare occasion), but typically I would hover at around 10-20 grams per day, spread through 2 to 3 doses per day. Due to recent financial struggles (I am pretty much broke), I have run completely out of kratom and do not intend to order anymore until I get back on my feet money-wise, even then I might not buy it for a while. As I am typing, I am now at about the 72 hour mark since my last dose of Kratom. In the past when I have cut myself off from it, I would experience a bit of impoverished mood--very mild--runny nose, general weakness and aches, but never anything close to what I experience stopping classic opiates cold turkey. Opiate withdrawal has always been FAR more hellish in comparison to kratom IME, I don't even want to know what Benzo w/d would be like (not a benzo guy).

All this to say that I have been using kratom fairly heavily long-term without any breaks at all, not even 24 hours. Now I am 3 days clean and feel FINE, great actually. The "kratom withdrawal" is not what I am worried about, nor is it why I am posting here. I am posting because I have a 30 mg oxy on standby, waiting for the right time to use it. Thus my question is, for those who may have some sense about this sort of thing, when might be the right time for me to take it? For those who don't know, kratom is notorious for killing opiate highs when people take it with, say, OC's, hydro's, even H I think. I remember when I first got into Kratom years back, I thought combining it with an OC30 such as I have now would make for a pleasant evening of euphoria and nods. I was SO upset I remember when, after I had taken the kratom already, I took the OC and felt absolutely none of its usual charm. ZIP, nothing. I then looked up how kratom interacts with other opiates and found people everywhere saying the same thing, it rendered the opiate used ineffective. Money down the drain.

At the moment the temptation to take the OC and have a pleasant experience is not so strong, for I fear it is too early and that whatever of the kratom remains in my system will diminish or kill the effects even after 3 whole days of abstinence. The going plan is to wait at least 6-7 days before I try, or to go even longer, which should not be difficult so long as I keep busy. I am going to stretch out as long as I possibly can. Now, I have found threads on bl and elsewhere in which people have said the most various things. Someone will say one can use an opiate after a day of kratom abstinence (or non-use) with good effect, another will say 3-4 days, another still a week, and at last, just a few moments ago, I was browsing google when I saw a couple of reddit users saying that kratom stays in your system for ~17 days to a whole month. Boy, I do not want to wait that long, but there is so much uncertainty on this subject it seems. In my defense, the people claiming a few days or a week to be sufficient seem to have more grounds for their assertions. I'm sure it varies by person. Me, I am a skinny 25 year old male with minimal body fat (10% give or take), a very rapid metabolism, get lots of exercise and good sleep, no health concerns impeding my bodily or mental function. Confessedly, I am just somebody who likes to use. Some things regularly, others only on occasion. Cannabis and kratom have a safety profile which permit me to use them regularly with positive results, though I am cutting both out because I don't have the money anymore. I occasionally use OC's and various psychs.

So, bl community, if you were in my position and had an OC at hand that may or may not work if you took it right now, what would you do? How long should I wait? All research, experience reports, etc. that may serve to answer this question are greatly appreciated. I am sure I am not the only one who has been in this predicament, maybe now you find yourself in the same situation! Cheers, glad to be a part of the family.

-MB

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Kratom certainly doesn't stay in your system for a whole month (are people describing withdrawal?) Considering its half life (although some alkaloids are unstudied) it should be out of your system in 48-72 hours.

I would optimally wait 10-14 days to make the most out of the oxy and reset your tolerance completely.

It wouldn't have a blocking effect on opioids beyond a few days except for the tolerance it provided itself.

I'm not even sure how much it blocks opioids per say, other than providing tolerance. I've read some studies suggesting it may actually attenuate morphine tolerance and dependence (may be misremembering)

 

[MysticBrew]

Kratom certainly doesn't stay in your system for a whole month (are people describing withdrawal?) Considering its half life (although some alkaloids are unstudied) it should be out of your system in 48-72 hours.

I would optimally wait 10-14 days to make the most out of the oxy and reset your tolerance completely.

It wouldn't have a blocking effect on opioids beyond a few days except for the tolerance it provided itself.

I'm not even sure how much it blocks opioids per say, other than providing tolerance. I've read some studies suggesting it may actually attenuate morphine tolerance and dependence (may be misremembering)

Thanks. If I remember correctly the Reddit user was trying to get a job or check out of rehab and originally tested a false positive for methadone, but was later confirmed to be kratom with a different drug test that picks that up. So not a matter of tolerance or blocking opioid receptors in a month’s time frame, but of detectability on drug tests that specifically pick up on kratom use. I don’t care how long I might test positive for it, I care when it won’t be a complete waste to use what I’ve got

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Thanks. If I remember correctly the Reddit user was trying to get a job or check out of rehab and originally tested a false positive for methadone, but was later confirmed to be kratom with a different drug test that picks that up.

Holy crap I thought this was bullshit but apparently kratom can indeed cause false positive for methadone

A Kratom Metabolite Causes False Positive Urine Drug Screening Results for Methadone

AbstractBackground. The synthetic opioid methadone is utilized in pain management and opioid addiction therapy. Patients with methadone prescriptions are m

academic.oup.com

 

[plumbus-nine]

Just remember that even with resetted tolerance, the brain remembers (possibly over DeltaFosB, which takes ages to reverse) every addiction and withdrawal, there's an effect called kindling which means that every withdrawal will be worse than the previous iteration. But there's also tolerance memory, one consumption won't bring back the whole beast but you will get some withdrawal, I get weakness, yawning, diarrhea, restlessness - if you have some pregabalin or memantine you can skip most of withdrawal, the brain still remembers but less intense. My hunch is that these horrid withdrawals some people get from stopping heroin is that they were in a cycle of high, down and withdrawal, for long time.

I would really search for a doc who prescribes you pregabalin - memantine is possibly better but hard to get as its currently only approved against Alzheimer's (where it ironically doesn't work so good). Do you know any doc whom you could openly tell that you want to cut down on Kratom? Or are you w/o insurance atm?

Kratom shouldn't test positive for any of the common drugs, its structure is unique and not an analogue of another known drug. Possibly it was tainted with some RC but methadone analogues are new and still rare in the RC scene.. yeah, weird, but I had false positives as well. Always ask for a confirmation over GC/MS, hopefully they don't have a standard for mitragynine (the main opioid alkaloid of Kratom) or don't bother and just tell that it couldn't be confirmed. Dunno how the law in the states is, in Europe you had the right to get a confirmation - they make you pay for but when it was the only evidence they had and it comes out negative then they need to close the case and pay their shit themselves. I know that the US is a bit different and has a big industry around jails and police, a horrible thing if you ask me but that's another story.

<- Methadone

How's it in the US, when you have to undergo a drug test, is it specifically about illegal drugs (as many people take e.g. supplements, nootropic stacks, whatever which are legal) or do they insist for total abstinence besides prescription drugs? And when, would you pass with a methadone script if they test positive for that? In the first case, when it's solely about illegal drugs, you could show them the PDF linked above and insist for a GC/MS confirmation.

Good luck & welcome to BlueLight

 

[MysticBrew]

Just remember that even with resetted tolerance, the brain remembers (possibly over DeltaFosB, which takes ages to reverse) every addiction and withdrawal, there's an effect called kindling which means that every withdrawal will be worse than the previous iteration. But there's also tolerance memory, one consumption won't bring back the whole beast but you will get some withdrawal, I get weakness, yawning, diarrhea, restlessness - if you have some pregabalin or memantine you can skip most of withdrawal, the brain still remembers but less intense. My hunch is that these horrid withdrawals some people get from stopping heroin is that they were in a cycle of high, down and withdrawal, for long time.

I would really search for a doc who prescribes you pregabalin - memantine is possibly better but hard to get as its currently only approved against Alzheimer's (where it ironically doesn't work so good). Do you know any doc whom you could openly tell that you want to cut down on Kratom? Or are you w/o insurance atm?

Kratom shouldn't test positive for any of the common drugs, its structure is unique and not an analogue of another known drug. Possibly it was tainted with some RC but methadone analogues are new and still rare in the RC scene.. yeah, weird, but I had false positives as well. Always ask for a confirmation over GC/MS, hopefully they don't have a standard for mitragynine (the main opioid alkaloid of Kratom) or don't bother and just tell that it couldn't be confirmed. Dunno how the law in the states is, in Europe you had the right to get a confirmation - they make you pay for but when it was the only evidence they had and it comes out negative then they need to close the case and pay their shit themselves. I know that the US is a bit different and has a big industry around jails and police, a horrible thing if you ask me but that's another story.

<- Methadone

Good luck & welcome to BlueLight

So coming off of kratom right now is a breeze for me. In the past I would get mild discomfort from stopping cold turkey, such symptoms as I wrote in the OP, a bit irritating but easily bearable. This time around I am experiencing no withdrawal. I mean, none at all. Nothing of discomfort or craving, I’m just following my normal routine and don’t feel set back in any way whatsoever. I have some kratom extract on hand that I never use, but thought I might take a bit if w/d symptoms worsened, but they didn’t, they never began.

Also it was not me that tested false positive for methadone, some other person whose story I found searching through Reddit. I really don’t think I need memantine or pregabalin to help me, maybe if I was coming off of classic opiates I would. But everything is smooth sailing for me and I’m over 72 hours without kratom now. All I wanted to know is when I would be okay to take a 30 mg oxy I have been saving for a while now, since I was a heavy long term kratom user and kratom has been known to ruin opiate highs. When I was on kratom the ox would just sit where I stashed it, because I knew it would be a waste if I tried to take it.

(The false positive methadone thing is interesting though, both seem to prevent opiates from working properly. And you are right, my first times using opiates were strongest and best, and I don’t think I can get back to that, but I still enjoy a taste as an occasional treat)