Ketobemidone vs (3R,4R) Picenadol

[Fertile]

When I first read about picenadol in the Annual Report of Medicinal Chemistry, I wondered if those researching ketobemidone derivatives - who had ONLY found antagonists hadn't separated the enanthiomers. I couldn't find any such research and I do know ketobemidone was developed in 1948 but optical resolution didn't really become a common tactic in the late 1950s, early 1960s.

With this in mind, I tried to place a 3-methyl moiety to ketobemidone and try to overlay it with (3R,4R) picenadol... but I couldn't... or at least ChemOffice wouldn't let me.

So I class it as an open question. Even if it's x7 more potent, it's still far too much work to be worthwhile but it would be nice to know. So if anyone is playing with the ketobemidone scaffold, maybe this is worth looking into.

Oh, and ONLY the N-methyl is an agonist. The n-pentyl homologue is a partial agonist. I have seen notes in which oxygen containing functions were supposed to produce agonist activity, but their was no IUPAC naming nor images.

But it's a fascinating compound - Oh, and the ketone can be exchanged with an ethylsulfonate or n-propylsulfonate producing compounds just as potent. The only difference is that the n-propylsulfonyl ism ore toxic (in animal models).

In fact, someone systematically tried swapping ketones for ethylsulfonates e.g. IC-26 and it seems to work in every case.

 

[izo]

do you have any personal experience with ketobemidone? and if so can you perhaps give a quick comparison with pethidine concerning the quality of the high? ive read that pethidine is not the best choice when you are looking for a nice high from a fully synthetic opioid (its the oldest full synthetic opioid btw, made in 1937). its also a inhibitor of DAT and NET, dont know if this is the reason for being not too recreational although there is a huge amount of opioids that is certainly a much worse choice for getting high (eg fentanyl).

 

[bingey]

do you have any personal experience with ketobemidone? and if so can you perhaps give a quick comparison with pethidine concerning the quality of the high? ive read that pethidine is not the best choice when you are looking for a nice high from a fully synthetic opioid (its the oldest full synthetic opioid btw, made in 1937). its also a inhibitor of DAT and NET, dont know if this is the reason for being not too recreational although there is a huge amount of opioids that is certainly a much worse choice for getting high (eg fentanyl).

The problem with pethidine is it's metabolite norpethidine which is toxic and accumulates .

 

[Fertile]

Pethidine might be OK if one has NO tolerance, but in truth, it's really not potent enough for most users. Ketobemidone feels very much like pethidine, it's just more potent. Now I snorted it but I believe it's IV that produces the rush.

 

[izo]

Ketobemidone feels very much like pethidine, it's just more potent. Now I snorted it but I believe it's IV that produces the rush.

opioids seem to be your thing, what about ketobemidone in comparison to tilidine? is it better? would take tilidine as some kind of gold standard for recreational use as its a pretty much average as an opioid. duration good, a good high and a good possebility for combination in multi drug use settings, which is rather important for a solid rc opioid and this fact doesnt get enough attention imo. too much is in the hands of pharmaceutical compositions available via pharmacies when it comes to opioids...

 

[Fertile]

Tilidine is a prodrug - but nortilidine is very nice - it's stimulating. The Wiki page also references a patent to the reversed-ester analogues. With pethidine ---> MPPP the potency goes up a lot, but notrilidine and isonortilidine seem to have the same potency.

Both of them are far, far too costly to make.

 

[izo]

Tilidine is a prodrug - but nortilidine is very nice - it's stimulating.

we know. so tilidine is nice, too...

i found it to be exactely the same kind of high as methadone has, but shorter and a not so strong binding. comparable to lets say morphine/hydromorphone or amt/5meo-amt but without any remakable difference in the nature of the high.

 

[Fertile]

Methadone is highly dependent on ROA. In the UK people undergoing treatment are given green 'juice' which is 1mg/mL methadone hydrochloride in a formulation aimed at stopping people doing anything but drinking it... and although it's supposed to be 70-80% bioavailable, that's over a long time span (due to protein binding).

But if one can extract the methadone freebase (hint there) then it's smokable or can be salted and injected. It's a TOTALLY different experience. It's also a terrible idea because people get use to 'basing their done' and they are sure to know others willing to sell their own methadone.

I've known a couple of people who went down that path. But they were trapped with no treatment options and a MASSIVE habit.

But nortilidine is MORE stimulating because it's the active metabolite that is also the DRI. That's why IF someone finds a cheap route or a simple compound with similar activity (hence F&B andmyself discussing fencamfamine analogues).

 

[kongoman]

Hi @Fertile ! Im from a small town in the north coast of Barcelona. Here have not arrived
this kind of syrup fortunately cause I used to drink it when I lived in Barcelona and it's horrible taste and you can't extract methadone frebase or a very satured methadone solution.
But in my town I get methadone with only water. After two years of use one day I hit on an idea. I could evaporate water and get a most saturated solution! then I could IV it.
And I did it with home chemist.
I heated a spoon with a welding gun. And It worked so well, a steady hand is essential. The first time I did it I dropped 100mg on the floorand I got fucked. Don't do it on top of your legs if you don't want to burn them with possible drops that can fall from the spoon.
I did it over my legs then 3-4 very hot drops felt above my legs. It was not nice!
Well I don't want to be boring
I have a question: when you say " to be salted and injected" whats the meaning of salt?
Thanks mate!
Send u love to all chemistry students that are interested in drugs!

 

[Fertile]

Methadone freebase is TOTALLY insoluble in water.... and indeed the green gunk it comes in.

If one adds a base, all of a sudden (as the solution reaches pH of 8.2 - the pKa of methadone), it goes cloudy. THAT cloud is methadone freebase. A coffee filter will conveniently collect the solid. Wash it with water and there you are.

But as I have said, people who do this seem to get hooked on the rush/high REALLY quickly and tend to increase their dose. Soon they needed 80+ mg of methadone 4 times a day because although when smoked it goes straight to the brain, it's redistributed so that 'high' doesn't last a long time... and it's all down hill from there
.
I don't know what happened to the guys I knew who did this. I know they couldn't afford to keep up their habits and committed stupid crimes. I estimate they would have needed circa 600mg oral methadone a day to stop withdrawal. I dread to think what happened when they were forced to stop for one reason or another. I know suicide is common when people get such serious rattles that last for months (potentially).

So I mention it out of interest - but don't do it. It will end badly.

 

[kongoman]

Methadone freebase is TOTALLY insoluble in water.... and indeed the green gunk it comes in.

If one adds a base, all of a sudden (as the solution reaches pH of 8.2 - the pKa of methadone), it goes cloudy. THAT cloud is methadone freebase. A coffee filter will conveniently collect the solid. Wash it with water and there you are.

But as I have said, people who do this seem to get hooked on the rush/high REALLY quickly and tend to increase their dose. Soon they needed 80+ mg of methadone 4 times a day because although when smoked it goes straight to the brain, it's redistributed so that 'high' doesn't last a long time... and it's all down hill from there
.
I don't know what happened to the guys I knew who did this. I know they couldn't afford to keep up their habits and committed stupid crimes. I estimate they would have needed circa 600mg oral methadone a day to stop withdrawal. I dread to think what happened when they were forced to stop for one reason or another. I know suicide is common when people get such serious rattles that last for months (potentially).

So I mention it out of interest - but don't do it. It will end badly.

I have a question mate.
What happens if you evaporate all water from a methadone(Idont know what form)+water solution?
Wich base you add to the solution to get freebase?
I'll not do it its only knowledge
Thanks in advanced man
I love chemistry but drugs...are my downfall.
Positive vibez brother even If Im feeling blues

 

[sekio]

You remove the water from a methadone solution? The stuff I'm familiar with (Methadose 10mg/mL) will go crusty on you, and potentially burn.

What base to use? The basic principles of chemistry suggest it doesn't matter.

Presumably adding 10% sodium carbonate solution dropwise is all youd need to do.

 

[izo]

But nortilidine is MORE stimulating because it's the active metabolite that is also the DRI. That's why IF someone finds a cheap route or a simple compound with similar activity (hence F&B andmyself discussing fencamfamine analogues).

we all know about the myth of fencamphamine or lefetamine showing mu-agonism...
still ridiculous. but maybe nor tilidine is somewhat more stimulating, idk it was around over here a while ago.
anyway tilidine is touted as the new hiphop street drug over here and described as some kind of horror drugs despite of it being some kind of middle potency opioid drug orally compared to methadone which is some really everywhere avaiable and at least 10 times more potent (orally) mu agonist which is really just a good bit stronger and acts way longer (orally) than tilidine.

In the UK people undergoing treatment are given green 'juice' which is 1mg/mL methadone hydrochloride in a formulation aimed at stopping people doing anything but drinking it.

if you get liquid methadon over here its usually polimidon aka l-methadon. the other option is 40mg racemic methadone tablets.

 

[Fertile]

You remove the water from a methadone solution? The stuff I'm familiar with (Methadose 10mg/mL) will go crusty on you, and potentially burn.

What base to use? The basic principles of chemistry suggest it doesn't matter.

Presumably adding 10% sodium carbonate solution dropwise is all youd need to do.

I just slowly added 1 pearl of NaOH at a time (for 1L of 1mg/mL methadone linctus) and it's impressive how it ALL goes cloudy in an instant. Then warm the solution (to make it thinner) and pour through coffee-filter - or Buchner funnels if you have one.

Mechanical losses means it's only worth doing with quite large amounts BUT you can get an amorphous white powder. It smokes off foil and has a kick in it like a mule. Much more powerful that vaping heroin.... because the methadone is essentially pure, I presume.

But I did it ONCE and realised that it was a long walk of a short pier. Others who weren't as risk averse came to harm.... or at least totally disappeared and nobody knows where they went. That usually has 3 reasons, none good.