Ketamine therapy, IV administered in hospital setting - success??

[JohnBoy2000]

I've just been informed that the country I used to live in, the Netherlands, does provide this type of treatment, which is fantastic to hear because, it's an option to consider.

So, I'm once again, information gathering.

Has anyone actually heard of someone who has had success with this kind of treatment, administered by a medical professional?

Not the, "I got wasted on special K and felt happy for months after" type of thing.
Legitimate medically administered success.

??

 

[Speed King]

I will be getting 8 hours of IV treatment at the end of August. I will let everyone know. I am in the USA by the way.

 

[palmanita]

Why should medical administeration be less effective than illicit ketamine by any means?

My 2 cents are that it will work, probably better than anything you've tried before, but the benefits (of a single session) won't last for months. It's a temporary solution that enables you to do hard work on yourself and your situation.

I'd be so happy if I could get legitimate prescribed access to ketamine, because it's the only thing that brings true relief (besides other strong NMDA antagonists of course). Even if I had to go through an IV treatment every few weeks, but legally ... I'm unsure whether the IV route is important but society tends to dislike intranasal use of drugs.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

Just FYI I think the consensus is that the antidepressant efficacy of ketamine is due to the AMPA modulating metabolite and not the NMDA antagonism, so I wouldn't equate other NMDA antagonists with ketamine

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Why should medical administeration be less effective than illicit ketamine by any means?

My 2 cents are that it will work, probably better than anything you've tried before, but the benefits (of a single session) won't last for months. It's a temporary solution that enables you to do hard work on yourself and your situation.

I'd be so happy if I could get legitimate prescribed access to ketamine, because it's the only thing that brings true relief (besides other strong NMDA antagonists of course). Even if I had to go through an IV treatment every few weeks, but legally ... I'm unsure whether the IV route is important but society tends to dislike intranasal use of drugs.

Have you tried illicitly obtained ketamine?
I believe its dose is much higher than hospital prescribed.

Does it interact with other prescribed drugs, normal AD's?

And some anecdotes have raved about it's AD effect lasting months.
I assume you haven't found this to be the case...?
That it's more of a weekly thing, even shorter perhaps?

 

[Renald]

I've just been informed that the country I used to live in, the Netherlands, does provide this type of treatment, which is fantastic to hear because, it's an option to consider.

So, I'm once again, information gathering.

Has anyone actually heard of someone who has had success with this kind of treatment, administered by a medical professional?

Not the, "I got wasted on special K and felt happy for months after" type of thing.
Legitimate medically administered success.

??

Can you give the information where in Netherlands this kind of treatment is performed?

 

[salmoneser]

Try out N.J Gregory from the erowid facebook group, he did it a few years ago and wrote about it in the group.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Can you give the information where in Netherlands this kind of treatment is performed?

Actually I just contacted their national pharmacy, who replied telling me that it is only administered in a hospital setting, but that it is available.

I would assume it's prescribed by a psychiatrist.
The main organisation of mental health in the netherlands is either Arkin, or Mentrum.
One may be a subsidiary of the other.
Both can be found on google if you're outside the netherlands.
Well, when I say the Netherlands, I mean amsterdam specifically.

 

[dopemaster]

I was looking into that too. I should a procedure lined up.

From my understanding it is put in the source of the pain like a joint.

I suppose I will find out. Ketamine creams have worked great for me.

 

[palmanita]

Have you tried illicitly obtained ketamine?

Yes, along with a bunch of related drugs. Unfortunately I didn't have the chance yet to try medicinal ketamine, so I can't truly compare as I don't know what impact the very probably present impurities had.

I believe its dose is much higher than hospital prescribed.

Ketamine is primarily used as an anesthetic, and the recreational effects are below the anesthetic threshold. If it's dosed much higher then it's either impure or the user developed a tolerance, in the latter case medical ketamine would have to be dosed equally high. It's one of the very few drugs that are under-dosed when used recreationally.

But yes, the medically administered dose for antidepressant purposes will be relatively small to minimize side effects (those which recreational users are searching for).

Does it interact with other prescribed drugs, normal AD's?

It's used in emergency for instabile patients (correct me if I'm wrong) because of the relative lack of bad interactions, it doesn't depress respiration for example but acts more like a mild stimulant. As long as you don't have preconditions or crazy regimens, there should be little danger. You could even combine ketamine with an opioid.

And some anecdotes have raved about it's AD effect lasting months.
I assume you haven't found this to be the case...?
That it's more of a weekly thing, even shorter perhaps?

This I can't answer, because I'm not sure how to think about it for myself. a) I'm atypical (as all of us are) b) dissociative use might have changed me more than I realize c) I very probably do have Asperger's which might be related to some NMDAr abnormalism, leading to point a.
Things beside, the effect is real and unique. For some one "hit" might be enough to make things rolling, open the road for permanent / lasting benefits when used in the right moment and the right people or therapeutical setting. Others might require more than one attempt.

I think of the consciousness, the brain and the neurobiochemical system as kind of a yin and yang. Every thought or feeling has a chemical counterpart, and every neurotransmitter activity has an emotional / cognitive counterpart. Nothing is static here.

 

[Renald]

I was looking into that too. I should a procedure lined up.

From my understanding it is put in the source of the pain like a joint.

I suppose I will find out. Ketamine creams have worked great for me.

Who prescribed you ketamine creams? Also, are there any ready to use creams with ketamine, or all they are made in pharmacies by a prescription prior to use?

 

[Speed King]

A pain doctor set my appointment up for August 29th. He says it will help lower my tolerance to pain drugs. My psych doctor says it will have a major effect on depression. I read that 1 hour of treatment will equal 1 week of antidepressant therapy. My treatment lasts a total of 8 hours.

I have had recreational ketamine before and thought it was beautiful. I knew my head was there but everything below my head was gone. I will report back my experience to those interested.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

A pain doctor set my appointment up for August 29th. He says it will help lower my tolerance to pain drugs. My psych doctor says it will have a major effect on depression. I read that 1 hour of treatment will equal 1 week of antidepressant therapy. My treatment lasts a total of 8 hours.

I have had recreational ketamine before and thought it was beautiful. I knew my head was there but everything below my head was gone. I will report back my experience to those interested.

We're interested.
Keep us updated.

Did you find the recreational ketamine to have any useful AD properties, or alleviate any depressive symptoms?
Did you sleep/eat better in the week after etc?

 

[bingey]

Actually I just contacted their national pharmacy, who replied telling me that it is only administered in a hospital setting, but that it is available.

I would assume it's prescribed by a psychiatrist.
The main organisation of mental health in the netherlands is either Arkin, or Mentrum.
One may be a subsidiary of the other.
Both can be found on google if you're outside the netherlands.
Well, when I say the Netherlands, I mean amsterdam specifically.

No it's not metrum or arkin where did you get this?

 

[JohnBoy2000]

No it's not metrum or arkin where did you get this?

Get..... what exactly.... the information??

An administrator at the national pharmacy in the netherlands. apotheek.nl

"Yes, Ketamine treatment is indeed only administered by IV in a hospital setting".

 

[bingey]

Ketamine is only used for pain and only with small.children in the Netherlands cause they don't suffer from side effects like adults

I've been living here all my life and never heard of anyone getting ketamine at the hospital .

Also the main mental healthcare organisation is GGZ nederland

 

[JohnBoy2000]

Ketamine is only used for pain and only with small.children in the Netherlands cause they don't suffer from side effects like adults

I've been living here all my life and never heard of anyone getting ketamine at the hospital .

Also the main mental healthcare organisation is GGZ nederland

No kidding.

Why was I always told mentrum?

I know the publicly accessible crises clinics are all run by mentrum/arkin, in amsterdam at least.

I wonder is that because GGZ is based in Amersfoort.

Just out of curiosity, what are the other main mental health care centers, in amsterdam, or the netherlands in general?
Does mentrum/arkin even rank?
I even went as far as to think they were government run.

In fact, I recall specifically speaking to a GP and being told that mentrum was the main umbrella organization of mental health, encompassing psychology, psychiatry, occupational therapy etc....??

 

[Solipsis]

Mentrum may be a big caregiving institution in Amsterdam, but GGZ Nederland / the Netherlands as mentioned means literally the Mental Health Care and it is the national instutite. It regulates. When you get care though you normally apply at a specific local institution. That is the difference.

If you are living in Amsterdam or its area sure, then the biggest one in the area may be mentioned as the primary one. Still, different from the national institute that regulates.

Other centers are for example Altrecht.

Yes, the ketamine metabolites are relatively novel as being considered the AMPAkine / LTP inducing compounds it's all about... but some other dissociatives like methoxetamine display such AD potential that it is reasonable to expect similar analogue (metabolites) to be relevant rather than not.
Then again some other potent and relatively specific NMDA antagonists may not really have such metabolites, and also of course the MXE metabolites etc still would have to be confirmed before we really assume anything. Just saying I have good hopes for a few of them, but certainly not all.

Yeah illicit ketamine is sometimes or even often impure, but it doesn't have to be. Then again, with recreational effects you can easily titrate at home, but with anti-depressant effects it is more difficult to adjust for impurity.

It can be analyzed for purity so it's feasible to get a sample checked and if more or less pure you could buy a batch for medicinal purposes and calculate your effective dose. At that point it is rather that in a hospital setting there is supervision that helps avoid abuse of higher doses that may seem appealing.

If you would assume that you have an analyzed batch and you have no interest in recreational use, good motivation and even better discipline... then there couldn't really objectively be a difference between a same dosage regimen administered in different settings, apart from the guidance perhaps that may influence mindset.

 

[JohnBoy2000]

^^ Are you also based in the netherlands?

I am seriously contemplating returning their to avail of their better mental health care.

I'm unsure as to how they support those on disability however.
I know their system in generally considered very good in this capacity but, regarding specifics, I'm not informed.

I worked there for 5 years as a non-resident (not registered with city council, but paid taxes).

Shrinks here won't prescribe a lot of the meds that are commonly scripted over there, because they have no familiarity with them.

 

[Solipsis]

Yes I'm in the NL.

AFAIK disability is fair.

Maybe there is more experience with some medications, but I definitely wouldn't say that meds are overprescribed like I've seen statistics about the USA.

My previous shrink had no experience with pregabaline but scripted me anyway when I requested it. Not carelessly though, it was well-motivated and worked for a long while. Still kinda does but not so effectively anymore and I'm tapering it, seems better sooner or later - for a while at the very least.