Ketamine Dangers

[PuristLove]

And yet the fact remains that many MDMA users report lasting depression and cognitive impairment after longterm and sometimes even short term use.
And ketamine users claim to have experienced cognitive impairment as well.
I fully believe in the ability of propaganda to create placebo effect, at the same time, to ignore so many reports is ludicrous.
The fact remains that MUCH more testing needs to be done on these drugs before we allow ourselves to come to any conclusions at all.
One of your favorite arguements is that ketamine has been used medically for thirty years...
SSRIs are prescribed to millions of Americans. They are probably one of the most accepted drugs amonst the medical community, and yet, there is MUCH debate as to whether or not they are neurotoxic, and all kinds of adverse reactions have been had because of them. Yet any of us could visit a doctor, ask for an SSRI, and have a very high likelihood of being prescribed one.
No one here is preaching the anti-drug propaganda. What we are doing, is suggesting that since we don't know much about this drug(and compared to many other drugs we don't)we would all do well to take the neccessary precautions to avoid possible harm, and be aware that we MAY be putting ourselves at risk by taking these drugs.
Your lack of objectivity reflects poorly on the drug community, and by taking the stance you have, you feed the anti-drug propaganda far more than any of us do. You portray the ignorant drug user who refuses to accept the possibility that he could be hurting himself. All we are requesting, is that you admit that some people believe themselves to have been harmed by ketamine, and that its plausible that they were.
You are free to hold any opinion you want, to draw any conclusion that you wish, but when you seek to spread those conclusions to others, without admitting that they are opinions and not facts, only your interpretation of those facts, you endanger other people.
None of us wishes that drugs were harmless more than I do, but wishful thinking does not make it so.
Why not present the facts and allow EVERYONE to draw their own conclusions?
Pure

 

[Jabberwocky]

Again, I will sum up what I have said on so many occasions already:
Fact 1-Brain damage from Ketamine has been documented in some animals.
Fact 2-Yes, studies were done on primates that did not show brain damage, but one of the researchers involved stated that these monkeys were most likely too young to reveal the same kind of damage that was seen in mice, and was therefore reluctant to give Ketamine a clear bill of health (Your beloved Karl Jansen states this).
Fact 3-None of the studies (monkey, mouse, human, etc.) were long term.
Fact 4-When we are posed with the challenge of determining whether a drug is safe or not, we must prove it to be safe beyond a reasonable doubt in the context of the particular application. This has not been done with Ketamine.
Fact 5-A mode of action model for ketamine's potential neurotoxicity certainly exsists, and it has manifested in smaller animals as Olney's lesions. More studies need to be done before the possibility of Olney's lesions (or other manifestations of neurotoxicity) can be ruled out in humans.
Bottom line: Until true safety is established you take a leap of faith in believing so yourself. I have no problem with that - that is your right. I have a problem with you stating that opinion as fact on this board, this is not a right you are entitled to.
Again, this is not a matter of "such and such happens in mice, so it MUST happen in humans" but rather that it MAY happen. We simply need more data before we can give Ketamine a clean bill of health - of all the points Dr. Jansen mentioned in his book, why is it that you choose not to address that particular one?
As far as MDMA having a clean bill of health, I am not even going to entertain your comment - outside of saying that your views are short sighted, influenced by personal bias and that you need to do some serious research on your own.
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"[The feeling of doing DMT] is as though one had been struck by noetic lightning. The ordinary world is almost instantaneously replaced, not only with a hallucination, but a hallucination whose alien character is it's utter alienness. Nothing in this world can prepare one for the impressions that fill your mind when you enter the DMT sensorium."
Load Universe into Cannon...
Aim at Brain...
Fire!

 

[Bricoleur]

Apply science to it and your arguments fall apart.

I found this on the MAPS mailing list. It is a reply to the following post:
Interestingly, the CMA isn't the only organization that is skeptical about
the effectiveness of medical marijuana. Read this: "Evidence of the
therapeutic value of smoked cannabis is heavily anecdotal. Marijuana is not
an approved drug in any country.
"While there are reports of the therapeutic value of inhaled marijuana,
scientific studies supporting the safety and efficacy of marijuana for
therapeutic claims are inconclusive. Health Canada is also concerned about
the health risks associated with the marijuana use, especially in smoked form."
Here is the "appropriate to our current discussion" reply:
pursuant to the quoted text below, the notion that statistical evidence is
_necessary_ for scientific proof when a clear direct cause-and-effect
situation is discerned by many conflicts with my understanding of
"science."
in any event, statistics can only demonstrate degree of likelihood of an
association; causation is an attendant conclusion typically based on
delineation of a likely chain of bio/physical events. the real scientific
question is what degree of faintness of the trail of causation is
appropriate for employing the tools of statistical analysis.
it has been said that the plural of anecdote is not data. it can also be
said that data are not necessarily scientific, and that anecdotes are not
necessarily nonscientific.

Jansen also qoutes studies where people who have taken E over 1000 times show no evidence of brain damage, depression etc.

That is strange. The Academic Medical Center in Amsterdam (an actual scientific study!!) has released a report that claims, "The popular club drug "ecstasy" causes temporary injury to brain cells, but the result is long-term damage to memory,
Dutch researchers said Sunday"

Don't "believe" ANYTHING. Look at the evidence instead.

Care to reassess this statement? You fail to understand that your "belief" lies in science. I am interested in knowing what criteria do YOU use to decide on WHICH scientific evidence to believe (this question is in reference to your comment on Jansen and E)? My concern is that you apply the same logic to your debate on Ketamine. The method of logical deduction you apply to believing "some" scientific evidence and ignoring other scientific evidence is commonly associated with anti-drug campaigners.
I am not sure whether to be scared or thankful that you are pro-drug.
Bricoleur.
[This message has been edited by Bricoleur (edited 16 October 2001).]

 

[PeyoteK]

Jansen is the world authority on K and knows a helluva lot about E. I find him pretty convincing when he says there's no evidence K is harmful [<---Dr. Jansen has never stated this] when used sensibly[<---whose definition of sensibility are you refering too?] and that the results on E are inconclusive to say the least.
Maybe I'm wrong.
Each to his own opinion bric. We don't have to agree.
[This message has been edited by Peyote,K (edited 16 October 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Sebastians_ghost (edited 16 October 2001).]

 

[Jabberwocky]

FINALLY!
Yes, you are correct... Nobody knows for sure, Peyote. This is why we cannot rule out the possibility. There are just too many question marks when it comes to our understanding of these drugs in the brain. So what does this mean to us in real life? We must approach this substance with caution. We also cannot dismiss all personal accounts of it causing damage as "psychosomatic" - this would be as foolish as taking each account as scientific fact. Yes, some individuals will manifest symptoms merely due to suggestion or have symptoms caused by other factors that they will wrongly attribute to the drug they are using. However, we must not dismiss the entire lot of these individuals who do report ill side effects. We must take take them for what they are worth, lean towards the side of caution, and do what we can to further the research being done on these drugs so we can better understand what is going on in the brain.
Peace,
SG
------------------
"[The feeling of doing DMT] is as though one had been struck by noetic lightning. The ordinary world is almost instantaneously replaced, not only with a hallucination, but a hallucination whose alien character is it's utter alienness. Nothing in this world can prepare one for the impressions that fill your mind when you enter the DMT sensorium."
Load Universe into Cannon...
Aim at Brain...
Fire!

 

[Blowmonkey]

and bump