Dissociatives Ketamine and suboxone

[Juicewrldfan]

Finally, I think I found out why my ketamine infusion treatments weren’t doing anything at all.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165032720332109

Apparently naltrexone blocks the effects of ketamine. Thoughts?

I’m actually kinda pissed because I spent around 8k on infusions and I disclosed I was on suboxone maintenance and the provider said it won’t interfere. I got zero effects and I feel so stupid and like I was lied to. I wonder if I have any legal recourse, probably not depending what I signed but idk…

 

[Chris Timothy]

Really, it did nothing? Very surprising.

I had some naltrexone around to recover from 3-HO-PCP abuse. I do think I tried a combination at one point. It certainly modified the effect, but I still felt the dissociation. I took low dose naltrexone though, just enough to protect the inner ear of kappa opioid agonism.

I've seen ketamine clinics screw up before. At one place they had a protocol where they gave people NAC, for its antioxidant purposes. I don't understand why they never noticed it blocks dissociation like nothing else..

 

[HOOH]

Wait this is garbage, this paper is done by psychiatrists and not pharmacologists or biochemists. Naltrexolone doesn't block ketamine in any sense (I don't think there is anything that can block dissos), it's just that since opioids have an "antisuicidal" effect on their own, naltrexone can therefore induce "suicidal" effects. Not getting a specific outcome from a drug therapy doesn't mean that the drug is not working.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

Idk…all that I do know is that it’s not that I didn’t get a specific outcome so much as I didn’t get ANY effects from the ketamine.

And I did about 12 treatments hoping it would work which was foolish to keep trying it. I don’t have those mental health issues now but I did then. My mental health issues didn’t get better until a few months ago and I did the ketamine treatment over a year ago so it’s not because the ketamine that I got better.

I didn’t get ANY effects. That’s what I’m saying. Just felt like I may as well been getting water infusions. And she says she took the dose all the way up to 120 so idk…unless she was scamming me idk.And I had no history with ketamine before that.

 

[plumbus-nine]

I did deschloroketamine while on buprenorphine and it worked just fine. Didn't watch out for an antidepressant effect as I was using daily for escapist purposes but there were the usual dissociative effects. I was on 4mg bupe without naloxone but the latter should only be active for 1-2 hours.

Weird you got no effects at all. Do you know what dose they infused you with?

 

[Juicewrldfan]

She said she used 120 the last time iv.

Granted this is an infusion so it is not entering my blood stream all at once…

 

[Bethie]

120 is a low dose. I wouldn’t feel 120 at all. I’ve had 100, 150 (barely feel), 170, 190, 210. A lot of things are at play. I’m shocked they didn’t go higher after you didn’t get any therapeutic effect though. They shouldn’t have upped it at session 2 and then again at 3 if you still had no effect.

I can’t speak to the naltrexone but I did get RXed it recently for long Covid and opted not to take bc I also have Norco for chronic pain and obviously it would block that. I have a CYP2d6 and a CYP450 mutation as well as some others but these do affect how I metabolize meds. Worth checking into.

- on my 6th year of k infusions, currently at 190+20 bolus, 25mg IM afterwards.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

120 is a low dose. I wouldn’t feel 120 at all. I’ve had 100, 150 (barely feel), 170, 190, 210. A lot of things are at play. I’m shocked they didn’t go higher after you didn’t get any therapeutic effect though. They shouldn’t have upped it at session 2 and then again at 3 if you still had no effect.

I can’t speak to the naltrexone but I did get RXed it recently for long Covid and opted not to take bc I also have Norco for chronic pain and obviously it would block that. I have a CYP2d6 and a CYP450 mutation as well as some others but these do affect how I metabolize meds. Worth checking into.

- on my 6th year of k infusions, currently at 190+20 bolus, 25mg IM afterwards.

So that’s probably it then. The dose was just too low…she started at 80 and just slowly increased it until I got to 120 but at that point I was tired of wasting money.

Well if I’m ever in need again a new ketamine clinic opened up in my area maybe I’ll try them but idk…they sell weight loss drugs there too so idk…maybe I’ll just stick with my psilocybin 2-3 times a year.

 

[Bethie]

i would be frustrated in your shoes too. If the mushrooms work for you, stick with them. Cost savings, and you can do whenever you want. It’s annoying AF that when I am having SI and need an appointment, I have to wait on it and “just hang in there.” I wish I could just have an alternative at home.

Wow, 80mg to start is so low. If you can find an Askp certified place, even better. Cost isn’t more and they know they’re stuff.

 

[Chris Timothy]

Wait this is garbage, this paper is done by psychiatrists and not pharmacologists or biochemists. Naltrexolone doesn't block ketamine in any sense (I don't think there is anything that can block dissos), it's just that since opioids have an "antisuicidal" effect on their own, naltrexone can therefore induce "suicidal" effects. Not getting a specific outcome from a drug therapy doesn't mean that the drug is not working.

Do try an NAC combo, you can't believe it until you've felt it. Also, there's an herb called Angelica Archangelica that really messes up effects through another mechanism. Never tried a combo of both of 'em with a dissociative, but I imagine it would be quite the bloody significant blockage.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Wow, 80mg to start is so low. If you can find an Askp certified place, even better. Cost isn’t more and they know they’re stuff.

80mg intranasally can actually be a decent dosage for me, but I guess with slow infusions one needs more?

Tried NAC (up to 2g or so) together with DXM and it did nothing at all.

 

[Chris Timothy]

Interesting.

Then again DXM is an oddball.

Edit: and dose matters, of course. You've gotta do these blocking experiments at the threshold dissociative dosages. There you can clearly establish interaction effects, the qualitative component. Afterwards you can (maybe) scale to block whatever dosage, the quantitative component. Long way of saying DXM dose is important too. Not sure what to assume, DXM is most interesting at the highest doses of course.

 

[VerbalTruist]

Idk…all that I do know is that it’s not that I didn’t get a specific outcome so much as I didn’t get ANY effects from the ketamine.

And I did about 12 treatments hoping it would work which was foolish to keep trying it. I don’t have those mental health issues now but I did then. My mental health issues didn’t get better until a few months ago and I did the ketamine treatment over a year ago so it’s not because the ketamine that I got better.

I didn’t get ANY effects. That’s what I’m saying. Just felt like I may as well been getting water infusions. And she says she took the dose all the way up to 120 so idk…unless she was scamming me idk.And I had no history with ketamine before that.

Suboxone doesn’t interfere with ketamine. Many people use both with great success.

 

[HOOH]

Do try an NAC combo, you can't believe it until you've felt it. Also, there's an herb called Angelica Archangelica that really messes up effects through another mechanism. Never tried a combo of both of 'em with a dissociative, but I imagine it would be quite the bloody significant blockage.

Glutamatergic modulation of auditory information processing in the human brain - PubMed

NAC did not attenuate the effects of ketamine in humans, in contrast to previous studies in animals. NAC merits further investigation as a cognitive enhancing agent due to its ability to increase the P300 amplitude.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Conclusions: NAC did not attenuate the effects of ketamine in humans, in contrast to previous studies in animals. NAC merits further investigation as a cognitive enhancing agent due to its ability to increase the P300 amplitude.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

Suboxone doesn’t interfere with ketamine. Many people use both with great success.

Recently someone else posted on here that does ketamine infusion therapy and they said my dose was extremely low. So it wasn’t the suboxone, but inadequate dosing. She started me at 80 and increased it to 120 at the end…still is considered a low dose so that explains why it was a waste of money for me.

 

[MobiusDick]

Finally, I think I found out why my ketamine infusion treatments weren’t doing anything at all.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165032720332109

Apparently naltrexone blocks the effects of ketamine. Thoughts?

I’m actually kinda pissed because I spent around 8k on infusions and I disclosed I was on suboxone maintenance and the provider said it won’t interfere. I got zero effects and I feel so stupid and like I was lied to. I wonder if I have any legal recourse, probably not depending what I signed but idk…

Do you have any references that say that naloxone has an effect on the NMDA and σ receptors. I’ve used ketamine when I was in full opioid withdrawal and it made the withdrawal much more tolerable although it took quite a lot of shots to keep it at bay.

—MD

 

[MobiusDick]

Do you have any references that say that naloxone has an effect on the NMDA and σ receptors. I’ve used ketamine when I was in full opioid withdrawal and it made the withdrawal much more tolerable although it took quite a lot of shots to keep it at bay.

—MD

I really wonder if the antidepressant anti suicidal properties of bupe are through opioidergic pathways and not just in part due to dopamine reuptake inhibition and NMDA blockade.

 

[MobiusDick]

She said she used 120 the last time iv.

Granted this is an infusion so it is not entering my blood stream all at once…

Also note that in most people, a sub therapeutic amount of the naloxone is absorbed sublingually from Suboxone. I know people that can snort Suboxone and get a buzz.

 

[VerbalTruist]

Recently someone else posted on here that does ketamine infusion therapy and they said my dose was extremely low. So it wasn’t the suboxone, but inadequate dosing. She started me at 80 and increased it to 120 at the end…still is considered a low dose so that explains why it was a waste of money for me.

I believe in only k-hole doses.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

You get that X dose via infusion over how many minutes?