Dissociatives Ketamine and pregabalin

[MyExcuse]

So I was wondering if anyone has had experience with this combination. I have read that gabapentin can be a useful potentiator for a variety of substances (including dissociatives) but have not read much about the combination of pregabalin with dissociatives.

There might be an opportunity for me to try this combination in the future and I was hoping to get some feedback on it.

 

[Feste]

I've known people to end up in hospital on this combo.

 

[Solipsis]

Really, I believe you in an instant but the dynamics behind it are not immediately obvious to me...

But I looked up the pharmacodynamics just now and it seems pregabalin/gabapentin convert glutamate into GABA very readily, so thats an excitatory substrate turning into an inhibitory substrate. Meanwhile there I read that ketamine inhibits glutamate action, and also that it inhibits release, but there are more sources saying that glutamate release is increased. So you would expect escalating GABA levels, smothering brain communication.

OK, so anecdotal evidence plus a proposed mechanism of interaction equals?

Don't combine them!

 

[Jamshyd]

I don't know about pregabalin, but Gabapentin for me seems to amplify all of Ketamine's effects at any dose.

I've known people to end up in hospital on this combo.

Details please? Honestly, either you're mistaking pregabalin for another drug, or you're just making things up.

Like Solipsis said, the claim simply doesn't make pharmacological sense.

 

[MyExcuse]

I don't know about pregabalin, but Gabapentin for me seems to amplify all of Ketamine's effects at any dose.



Details please? Honestly, either you're mistaking pregabalin for another drug, or you're just making things up.

Like Solipsis said, the claim simply doesn't make pharmacological sense.

Well, consider that more often than not, people end up in the hospital not because they need to be there but because others seem to think they do. If pregabalin and gabapentin increase all of the effects of dissociative anesthetics, this could indicate an increased risk of being found by another individual who mistakes the increased inebriation for overdose.

I appreciate all information provided. If pregabalin and ketamine would substantially increase GABA levels in the brain, I can't imagine it would be that much worse than combining a benzo or kava with ketamine. I could be wrong however!

more voices, more knowledge, I'll do some looking up myself as I am more curious on the exact nature of pregabalin now.

 

[pharmakos]

I once combined 400mg of pregabalin with ~350mg of DXM. It felt very lucid but very altered at the same time. This combination gave me some visual patterning. I was okay to drive on it, but I have a pretty heavy DXM tolerance. It seemed physically safe to me, but I wasn't in a situation where I needed to make sure that I kept breathing or anything. If I had more pregabalin I would probably try the combination again.

 

[Solipsis]

First of all: you were not okay to drive on it, as a rule

Secondly: remember that warning for combination of GABAergic drugs with ketamine is both founded and controversial... stuff like increased risk of pulmonary aspiration is certainly increased! Which is of course a thing to look out for but often different from expectations of the uninformed public. I would never recommend such combos but I think that too many people see ketamine as a downer whereas it is quite a complex substance!
It don't think it will affect your ANS that quickly (you know, ketamine is administered in medical settings with benzodiazepines) so it's not like you will drop dead just like that but there are still plenty of interactions to be wary of and in general you don't want to mess around in that zone.

Please keep it sensible.

 

[Feste]

Details please? Honestly, either you're mistaking pregabalin for another drug, or you're just making things up.

Like Solipsis said, the claim simply doesn't make pharmacological sense.[/color]

I'm not mixing things up, or making them up (why would I? )

I simply heard on another forum that someone was hospitalised whilst on a night out on pregabalin & ket - the person themselves aren't a member of the forum, but they were with someone who was. They we're ok after & no more details really popped up.

Maybe it had nothing to do with either the ket, pregs or the combo. That's just what was posted.

 

[Solipsis]

All of ketamines effects you say Jamshyd...?

Thats interesting since it works through more than one pathway, though apparently something amplifies the result. Would be good to know whats up with this.

 

[polidelaiko]

Its not the same (gabapentin not being exactly like pregabalin), but i had no problems, with low doses of Gabapentin (300mg a day) and IM. ketamine.

 

[Sturnam]

I'm not mixing things up, or making them up (why would I? )

I simply heard on another forum that someone was hospitalised whilst on a night out on pregabalin & ket - the person themselves aren't a member of the forum, but they were with someone who was. They we're ok after & no more details really popped up.

Maybe it had nothing to do with either the ket, pregs or the combo. That's just what was posted.

Do you know what they were hospitalized for? What medical procedures/tests were done? Do we know that they were in actual physical danger, or just freaked out mentally?

Do you know the doses of ketamine or pregabalin? I think a hospitalization would be pretty uncommon because ketamine doesn't produce strong depressant effects (at reasonable doses), and pregabalin is an indirect depressant, so it's effect on CNS depression would be as strong as benzos/alcohol.

 

[MyExcuse]

Its not the same, but i had no problems, with low doses of Gabapentin (300mg a day) and IM. ketamine.

It's not the same = the high isn't the same? or are you referring to gabapentin not being the same? Just curious.

Like gabapentin, pregabalin binds to the α2δ (alpha2delta) subunit of the voltage-dependent calcium channel in the central nervous system. This reduces calcium influx into the nerve terminals. Pregabalin also decreases the release of neurotransmitters such as glutamate, noradrenaline, and substance P. Pregabalin increases neuronal GABA levels by producing a dose-dependent increase in glutamic acid decarboxylase activity.[citation needed] Glutamic acid decarboxylase (GAD) is the enzyme that converts the excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate into the inhibitory GABA in a single step.

(rac)-ketamine is a noncompetitive inhibitor of the α7 nAChR at clinically relevant concentrations.

Interestingly, because some neuronal nAChRs are permeable to Ca2+, they can affect the release of other neurotransmitters.

The protein encoded by this gene (α7 nAChR) forms a homo-oligomeric channel, displays marked permeability to calcium ions and is a major component of brain nicotinic receptors that are blocked by, and highly sensitive to, alpha-bungarotoxin

This gene is located in a region identified as a major susceptibility locus for juvenile myoclonic epilepsy and a chromosomal location involved in the genetic transmission of schizophrenia.

(all from wikipedia)

As you can see, Ketamine (an uncompetitive antagonist) blocks the Calcium channel. Could this cause an influx of calcium in the brain? Judging by what I've read, the biggest risk seems like having a seizure from fucking with the various receptors.

I agree (or rather, acknowledge) that ketamine is a very complex chemical. It's got a lot of actions on various receptors and due to the fact that there is very little research done on the R-isomer, it's hard to truly determine the full action of the drug IMO.

 

[Feste]

Do you know what they were hospitalized for? What medical procedures/tests were done? Do we know that they were in actual physical danger, or just freaked out mentally?

Do you know the doses of ketamine or pregabalin? I think a hospitalization would be pretty uncommon because ketamine doesn't produce strong depressant effects (at reasonable doses), and pregabalin is an indirect depressant, so it's effect on CNS depression would be as strong as benzos/alcohol.

It was well over a year or so ago this was posted & there wasn't much info then. I think it had something to do with breathing issues, no idea on ket dose, I think the pregs dose was about 750mg? Sorry if this isn't all that helpful.

The forum doesn't exist anymore, so I can't even go back & check.

Well, consider that more often than not, people end up in the hospital not because they need to be there but because others seem to think they do.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.

 

[pharmakos]

First of all: you were not okay to drive on it, as a rule

What rule is that? I feel that I was okay to drive, which would place myself at a ++ on the Shulgin Drug Scale. I was definetely a ways from a +++. But like I said, I have a pretty heavy DXM tolerance, and I had a decent pregabalin tolerance at the time.

Take it as you will though.

 

[Jamshyd]

I'm not mixing things up, or making them up (why would I? )

I simply heard on another forum that someone was hospitalised whilst on a night out on pregabalin & ket - the person themselves aren't a member of the forum, but they were with someone who was. They we're ok after & no more details really popped up.

Maybe it had nothing to do with either the ket, pregs or the combo. That's just what was posted.

You should have posted THESE details then. This, IMO, does not qualify as having "known people to have been hospitalized for this combo". Don't you agree?

All of ketamines effects you say Jamshyd...?

Thats interesting since it works through more than one pathway, though apparently something amplifies the result. Would be good to know whats up with this.

This is something I devote a lot of time reading up about and researching, yet it seems to be a sea of scientific speculation where no land has been spotted yet. There definitely seems to be a link between NMDA-antagonists (I found Gabapentin to also HUGELY potentiate ALL the effects of 3-MeO-PCP).

When I say "all" the effects, I mean every effect at any dose, be that the disorientation, the psychedelic-like effects of high doses, the amnesia at overkill doses, the numbness, the general feeling of well-being afterwards, the antidepressant effects of a low-dose regimen (like the one I posted in this forum), and the positive mood-balancing effects brought upon by this treatment, prolonging them for several weeks. To be fair, it also increases dizziness for first-time users who decide to move about, and even nausea in some cases (which I have never seen K by itself do). Again, this was only seen with two individuals who had absolutely no experience with K before.

It's not the same = the high isn't the same? or are you referring to gabapentin not being the same? Just curious.

NSFW:

(all from wikipedia)

As you can see, Ketamine (an uncompetitive antagonist) blocks the Calcium channel. Could this cause an influx of calcium in the brain? Judging by what I've read, the biggest risk seems like having a seizure from fucking with the various receptors.

I agree (or rather, acknowledge) that ketamine is a very complex chemical. It's got a lot of actions on various receptors and due to the fact that there is very little research done on the R-isomer, it's hard to truly determine the full action of the drug IMO.

I may be too harsh a judge, but I think your very question that I bolded above shows an incomplete understanding of how the brain works. Where exactly in the brain does this influx happen? In which direction? For how long? and what secondary, tertiary, and so on cascades does it result in? I ask all these questions, and yet I consider myself nothing more than an amateur when it comes to knowledge in neuropharmacology.

"An influx of calcium to the brain" as-is sounds to me like a serious brain mush .

 

[Saucy]

I once combined 400mg of pregabalin with ~350mg of DXM. It felt very lucid but very altered at the same time. This combination gave me some visual patterning. I was okay to drive on it, but I have a pretty heavy DXM tolerance. It seemed physically safe to me, but I wasn't in a situation where I needed to make sure that I kept breathing or anything. If I had more pregabalin I would probably try the combination again.

Dextromethorphan's major metabolite, Dextorphan interacts with the voltage-dependant calcium ion channel, the same channel to which gabapentin exhibits its primary effects by binding to one of its subunits (α2δ), I believe this creates the possibility for the two drugs to interact, although in exactly what manner, I doubt anyone fully understands. It certainly is a reaction that has not been formally studied.

Back when I had a strong physical addiction to gabapentin, I twice combined it with 2nd Plateau dosages of DXM and once combined it with a 1st plateau dose. Although there was no clear adverse reaction, none of these trips were highly positive in terms of the physical sensation they produced.

If anyone has any additional information on this combination/interaction, I would love to hear it.

Regards,

-Saucy

 

[Oxycondone]

I combined ketamine with pregabalin orally on my first ever time with ketamine (forgot I had taken the pregabalin) and I was seriously fearing for my life during the trip going in and out of conciousness.

Done pure K trips since then and I have to say the pregabalin significantly potentiates K trips in my experience.

 

[cocoabud]

i take pregabalin 100mg 3x day for nerve pain. i take ketamine 20mg 4x day for the same reason. sometimes i substitute mxe for ketamine. all the meds help the nerve pain. additionally i find that there is increased awareness of muscle condition. almost as a muscle relaxer. one that actually works. at times having increased awareness of the flexibility of various muscle systems. for me i have no desire to visit any "hole" of any flavor, rather just be more comfortable with a severely damaged body. so i come at it from a different angle than most.

 

[JmurphyD]

I'm not sure about the mixture of pregabalin and ketamine. But personal experience with DXM and lyrica proved to be a very hard trip. I was on third plateau which for my body weight was 780mg dxm with 750mg lyrica. This was probably the strangest combo I've found because most of the time I spent in an OBE watching myself stagger through woods and trying to find "little people" , with orange eyes, running from me. There are also times I blacked out and just have no recollection of existing and then would randomly find myself back in control of my body. I say all of this because while experiencing all of this I felt no shortness of breath or worry for harm. I highly doubt anyone was hospitalized for this combo with dxm or ketamine. The only way a person would get taken to a medical setting is if they were inresponsible and tripped publicly or around parents etc. Not saying it's harmless because everything in abundance can cause harm. But only an idiot would need medical attention for this alone.

 

[crOOk]

I'm not sure about the mixture of pregabalin and ketamine. But personal experience with DXM and lyrica proved to be a very hard trip. I was on third plateau which for my body weight was 780mg dxm with 750mg lyrica. This was probably the strangest combo I've found because most of the time I spent in an OBE watching myself stagger through woods and trying to find "little people" , with orange eyes, running from me. There are also times I blacked out and just have no recollection of existing and then would randomly find myself back in control of my body. I say all of this because while experiencing all of this I felt no shortness of breath or worry for harm. I highly doubt anyone was hospitalized for this combo with dxm or ketamine. The only way a person would get taken to a medical setting is if they were inresponsible and tripped publicly or around parents etc. Not saying it's harmless because everything in abundance can cause harm. But only an idiot would need medical attention for this alone.

Sorry for digging out such an old thread, but since other might find this, see the discussion about reducing harm, yet see above post as the closing words, I think a warning is in place here.
The poster is very likely trolling (that being his only post would suggest so). 780mg DXM alone is something that could send you to hospital, even if you are "an idiot". Potential side effects like severe pruritus, headaches, nausea and vomiting can cause pretty heavy physical discomfort to some people and a transition from that place to slipping in and out of outer space could cause some concern. If not to you, then probably to your sitter (yeah I hear some people still have those) who will probably have been worrying about the potentially dangerous synergy between dxm and that other medication you took a shitload of, but now also has to watch his friend trying to tear the skin of his own head while emptying his heart to an invisible entity about the headache that is just killing him.

Just DON't take 780mg DXM + 750 Lyrica... Seriously, such posts should just receive some sort of red warning label or a whole stack of them, addable by any user. That'd rock.