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Juries are 'unsympathetic' to women who claim rape after drunken binge

This is a hard issue..

I've been blacked out or to the point of making choices I wouldn't normally and nobody could tell. Alcohol does this - a lot. A seemingly normal drunk person is actualy beyond their limits but doesn't know it and nobody else does. If they meet somebody, the other person is drunk but not losing control and they go back to the other person's place and have sex. - who's to blame? The guy doesn't know the girl wouldn't have done this while sober but she's drunk, maybe REALLY drunk, and he can't even tell she's THAT drunk.

YES THIS HAPPENS. Don't try to tell me everybody should have a drunk-detector to know the exact fadedness of every person they encounter.

I'm not saying if alcohol is involved its a get out of jail free card but I have some sympathy for people who have sex with girls who are drunk and it gets turned into a rape case. That would just suck if at the time, both people were completely down to fuck and neither person knew the intoxication level of the other.
 
fruitfly said:
They appear to believe that it is reasonable for a man to assume that a woman’s silence amounts to consent, even if it is due to her intoxication. Even if a woman’s drink has been spiked, they are reluctant to find a defendant guilty of rape.

SAY WHAAAT! Yo thats fucked. If its not consentual its not consentual. I mean its like "can i fuck you" "...*snore*..." "ill take that as a yes!", thats fucked. But i think that the focus should be taken off of how to treat rape in court and how to prevent it in our society, cause its on HELL of a problem. I think its 1 in 3 wymyn will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime and its a horrible damaging thing for someone to have to go through. I think we need to work on changing our fucked up sexist culture.
 
Beatlebot said:
Say you and I were having this argument in person and I didn't like the way it was going so I hit you hard in the face and break your nose.

Whose fault is it?

Is it my fault, because I hit you in the nose?

Or is it your fault, because you should have known better to argue with me in the first place? Is it your fault for antagonising me? Is it your fault because I just don't like the way you look, the way you talk or the way you dress? Is it your fault because I thought you looked at me the wrong way? Is it your fault because everyone knows you were just asking for it?

Of course not, it's my fault because I didn't control myself and I punched you in the nose, nobody else's.

not that I'd ever hit you, I'm just using this as an example <3




maybe you missin my point, which is simple.


If you are a woman, no one has the right to violate you.

But if you are a woman, and you know that there are people who want to violate you, you should protect yourself, instead of protecting yourself with words like "that shouldnt happen." cuz when it comes down to it, the ideal theory of what should and what should never be, aint gonna mean shit when theres someone on your back unzipping your pants with their hand over your mouth.

Anyone can go anywhere. but is it smart for a white kid with no street smarts to walk around in harlem alone at night? Is it wise for parent to allow their child to play in a park where there has been children kidnapped recently? All i am askin is , in the interest of WOMEN, do you think that maybe women should be taught to watch out for themselves?

We aint victims with no power. we aint weak, fragile, or unable to defend or protect ourselfs. So why is it that when a woman gets raped, that there was nothing she could do about it? that it just HAPPENED to her, like a fuckin piece of bird shit fallin otuta the sky?

you CAN do things to prevent getting raped.

Things like not getting too drunk to see straight at a bar and going home with a man you dont know.......
 
^^^But that would mean taking a little self responsibility. Something most people tend to shy away from these days. And I hate women who claim rape or sexual harassment for b.s reasons. It makes it harder for women who were actually raped to get the asshole put behind bars for longer than ten years, and can REALLY mess up a wrongly accused mans mental stability and happiness.

Years ago I was accused of sexual harassment for giving someone a hug at the workplace and it really messed with my mind for awhile. 99% of the females I worked with knew I wouldn't sexually harass anyone and even asked me for a hug to help cheer me up. But my best friends girlfriend at the time seemed like she thought less of me during the time, even giving me that half hug thing if I opened my arms to give her a hug. I felt like I HAD harassed someone even though I hadn't........I was afraid to hug any females for awhile. Sounds stupid, but when people tell you you're a bad person, sometimes it can creep inside you mind and you start feeling guilty, ashamed, etc.
 
A relevent article from the papers today:

Link

Doctor cleared of raping drunk teachers

The Times
16 December 2006

His action was 'immoral, not illegal'
Minister review law on 'date rape'


A doctor who had sex with two drunk teachers has been cleared of raping them.

Mark Rance, 31, who insisted that while his behaviour was immoral it was not illegal, slept with the first teacher at her home before secretly going into the neighbouring room and having sex with her flatmate.

A jury at Lewes Crown Court, in East Sussex, found Dr Rance not guilty of two rape charges after four hours of deliberation.

The news came as The Times learnt that the Government will bring forward plans next year to tackle the complex legal issues surrounding alleged rapes when women are drunk.

The number of acquittals of so-called “date” or “acquaintance” rapes has fuelled debate on whether such cases should come before the courts at all — or, when they do, the circumstances in which juries should convict.

Mike O’Brien, the Solicitor-General, is expected to recommend that juries be given clearer guidance on when women who are under the influence of drink can consent to sexual intercourse.

He is concerned that, with rape conviction rates at only 6 per cent of all alleged rapes reported, juries believe that women have consented to sex even when almost incapable through drink.

Dr Rance, who lost his job as a result of the charges and was forced to work in a café near his home in Worthing, West Sussex, refused to comment after his acquittal. The General Medical Council said, however, that it would investigate the details of the case to establish whether his conduct breached its guidelines.

Dr Rance was working at the McIndoe Surgical Centre in East Grinstead, West Sussex, and was due to sit his final examinations for membership of the Royal College of Surgeons when he met the women at a club in Brighton on September 10 last year.

One of the women, named only as Miss X, admitted that she had drunk about three bottles of wine that evening. She said that she had “kissed and cuddled” the doctor at the club, but insisted that although she was drunk and had a patchy recollection of the night’s events, she would not have consented to sex, adding: “That is not who I am.”

The pair returned to her flat, where she demanded a foot massage. She claimed that she fell asleep and then awoke to find him astride her and he said: “You’re going to claim I took advantage, aren’t you?” She demanded that he leave and thought that she heard the front door slam but Dr Rance had instead knocked on her flatmate’s bedroom door and asked for a “kiss and a cuddle”. The flatmate, Miss Y, 26, who had earlier returned home alone from the club, said that she awoke with a “pain in her groin”.

Giving evidence from behind a screen, she said: “I became hysterical, I was crying. He was raping me . . . I never flirted with him. I never touched him. I certainly did not give him the ‘come on’.”

Dr Rance said that both women gave him the “green light” and that he stopped having sex with them as soon as they asked. He said that his “priority” was to “respect their wishes”.

He said that he had knocked on the flatmate’s room “out of curiosity”. He claimed that Miss Y had also consented to sex before “having a change of heart” and pushed him off, telling him: “I can’t believe I had sex with you — I’ve got a boyfriend.”

He said that he felt “genuinely sorry” for her when she burst into tears because she felt guilty. He said: “They were excited and very much involved in the whole process.

“I cannot comment on why these two females have done this. I think they felt rather cheated because it was sex behind the other’s back. But it was not rape.”

After leaving their flat he went to sleep in his speedboat moored at the Brighton Marina. He spent the following day water skiing.

After his arrest he told police that sleeping with both women “may be immoral, but it was not illegal”.

In their review of rape laws, Ministers will also likely recommend a new legal definition of “capacity” to sexual intercourse.

Lord Campbell-Savours, the Labour peer who has lobbied the Government to give appeal court judges the power to name women who make false rape allegations, expressed doubt that any changes would improve conviction rates.

He said: “Wherever cases involved drink, and three quarters of rape cases involve drink or drugs, it is very hard to find a jury that is prepared to accept a woman’s word if drink is involved, irrespective of whether the woman is right.”
 
you CAN do things to prevent getting raped.

It's an age old debate that gets heated easily.

In an ideal world, yes, women should be allowed to go out and get as wasted as they like, vomit in the street, pass out somewhere on a park bench wearing a bikini and not have to worry about being raped. Just like a man, young teenager etc.

But realistically people it's not going to happen.

There is a difference in the expected behaviours of men and women in this little thing called society we have going on. Take the standard alcohol or drug fuelled social setting:

Person A offers person B a drink.

Person A is almost certainly male, and person B is usually female. Either way, person A is engaging with person B for some sort of sexual interaction. Face it, that is how society works.

There is some responsibility on a person to look out for their own welfare.

I don't know if anyone is aware of what happens at certain gay clubs and 'health spa type' establishments, but let's just say there's a lot of random, 'no strings attached' sex. A colleague of mine shared some of the more explicit details of what he gets up to on weekends, and frankly I was a little put off. He said that it's sometimes considered rude to even ask the first name of the person you are about to have sex with. I don't approve of such meat markets that dehumanise people into mere sex objects, but no-one's twisting my arm so let it be.

Personally I think what goes on between consenting adults is nobody's business, but you'd be damn sure that I'm not going to go stumbling into one of these places one night by accident.

ANd if, just if I need one last beer or some change to use the phone, and there is absolutely no other place I could go, you'de be damn sure I'd be very wary of the other patrons- i.e. horny men who want to have sex with me. Once inside, if some half naked man in leather belts and what not says to me 'I've got a phone in my car parked outside do you want to come and use it?' there's no fucking way I'm even talking to this guy because I have a small suspicion that maybe his offer isn't the entire truth.

Face it girls, most guys, especially the ones that try and get you drunk, are interested in one thing, and one thing only.

Lacey K pretty much summed up where I stand on this:

" you CAN do things to prevent getting raped."
 
One of the women, named only as Miss X, admitted that she had drunk about three bottles of wine that evening. She said that she had “kissed and cuddled” the doctor at the club, but insisted that although she was drunk and had a patchy recollection of the night’s events, she would not have consented to sex, adding: “That is not who I am.”

"Miss X" should be put in prison for 10 years just for trying to get this poor guy put in prison.

So they where all drunk, they where all cuddling, later the women regretted it and tried to have the man tortured in a cage for years on end for their mistake.

I don't care what anyone says, if you go out to a club, drink 3 bottles of wine with a guy, "cuddle and kiss" him, then on top of that, invite him back to your home and "demand a foot massage" then the next day you say: "yeah I don't really remember what happened but I know I didn't agree to sex because that is not the type of person I am"!

Are you fucking serious bitch?

That is not the type of person you are to have sex with someone you just met?

Really?

So your the type of person to go out to a club, drink 3 bottles of wine on some guy's dollar, "kiss and cuddle" him, invite him home and "demand a foot massage" but not the type to give consent?

She doesn't even remember saying no or refusing sex after coming on to him and giving the green light in 50 different ways, oh, but she "knows" she must have been raped because her outstanding moral character would never allow her to have sex with a man she invited into her apartment and demanded a foot massage from.

This is a classic case of "regretting it later".

Disgusting.

Fucking stupid bitch I am sorry this shit really gets me.
 
lacey k said:
maybe you missin my point, which is simple.


If you are a woman, no one has the right to violate you.

But if you are a woman, and you know that there are people who want to violate you, you should protect yourself, instead of protecting yourself with words like "that shouldnt happen." cuz when it comes down to it, the ideal theory of what should and what should never be, aint gonna mean shit when theres someone on your back unzipping your pants with their hand over your mouth.

Anyone can go anywhere. but is it smart for a white kid with no street smarts to walk around in harlem alone at night? Is it wise for parent to allow their child to play in a park where there has been children kidnapped recently? All i am askin is , in the interest of WOMEN, do you think that maybe women should be taught to watch out for themselves?

We aint victims with no power. we aint weak, fragile, or unable to defend or protect ourselfs. So why is it that when a woman gets raped, that there was nothing she could do about it? that it just HAPPENED to her, like a fuckin piece of bird shit fallin otuta the sky?

you CAN do things to prevent getting raped.

Things like not getting too drunk to see straight at a bar and going home with a man you dont know.......

Yes, I see your point and I agree with you, but what I'm saying is that I feel there is way too much focus on what WOMEN can do to stop themselves being raped then what SOCIETY as a whole could do.

I think that focusing too much on what the woman did or didn't do to 'protect' herself leads to victim blaming and treats men like they are just simple-minded animals that can't help themselves. The fact is, if all women stopped wearing revealing clothes, stopped drinking and stopped going out altogether, rape would still happen. It's not about women being slutty or stupid, it's about hating women and not respecting them as equal human beings.

You tell me that using words like 'that shouldn't happen' don't mean anything when you're actually about to be raped and maybe you are right, but I think in a broader sense these words do mean something to our collective conscious. Keep saying something enough and it filters in to the mind of society and affects the way we all behave.

With that in mind, I'd much rather be saying that rape is wrong and shouldn't happen rather then things like, she should have known better then to wear that skirt/ drink so much/ get in the car with that guy/ put her hand on his arm etc. etc. etc
 
Beatlebot said:
Yes, I see your point and I agree with you, but what I'm saying is that I feel there is way too much focus on what WOMEN can do to stop themselves being raped then what SOCIETY as a whole could do.

I think that focusing too much on what the woman did or didn't do to 'protect' herself leads to victim blaming and treats men like they are just simple-minded animals that can't help themselves. The fact is, if all women stopped wearing revealing clothes, stopped drinking and stopped going out altogether, rape would still happen. It's not about women being slutty or stupid, it's about hating women and not respecting them as equal human beings.

You tell me that using words like 'that shouldn't happen' don't mean anything when you're actually about to be raped and maybe you are right, but I think in a broader sense these words do mean something to our collective conscious. Keep saying something enough and it filters in to the mind of society and affects the way we all behave.

With that in mind, I'd much rather be saying that rape is wrong and shouldn't happen rather then things like, she should have known better then to wear that skirt/ drink so much/ get in the car with that guy/ put her hand on his arm etc. etc. etc

It is not a matter of it being "the woman's fault".

If you jump out of the fucking bushes and force your dick in some chicks ass at knife point you obviously are a sick fuck and you deserve to be shot I don't care if the woman was walking around totally naked.

But if a woman is drunk and comes onto a guy and has sex with him and then doesn't even remember it in the morning that is NOT rape.

Now if a girl is totally unconscious on the floor and you have sex with here unconscious body that IS rape also.

However the last case is very hard to prove especially if the girl doesn't even remember what happened.

Just because you don't remember what happened does not mean you where unconscious, and it doesn't mean you didn't consent to, or even initiate, the sex act.
 
This is absurd.

In America one is covicted when the evidence shows to be "Beyond a shadow of a doubt".

Enter booze or drugs into the equation and blammo, you can't find evidence "Beyond a shadow of a doubt," due to the unreliability of such testimonies.

Sorry but in my mind if you convict one wrong person out of a million, potentially ruining their life, you have done harm to the concept of freedom and done immeasurable harm to the individual. If its a he said, she said sort of argument, than sorry thats not beyond a shadow of a doubt...

Its a sad side effect of free and fair trials that bastards get off and aren't convicted of horrible crimes, but tough... thats the way America works.
 
Last edited:
^^Very perceptive. I'm certainly not defending rape under any circumstances and with 3 women who I'd known for some time, I had to rule out sex because I thought THEY would think it was a mistake in the morning, If I had gone ahead and they had cried 'rape' I bet I would have got away with it. As Churchill said 'Democracy is the worst type of government, apart from the others we have tried from time to time'.
It's a bit wierd with those odd women who go round shouting rape, but they are a tiny percentage of cases. If a woman told me she had been raped, someone I knew, I think I would use the old Manchester saying 'don't commit the crime unless you can bounce'. It's normally painted about 10 floors up in a highrise block of flats.
 
Related

Bikini free drink offer criticised
Tuesday Dec 19 11:12 AEDT


A Melbourne nightclub which is offering free drinks to women who turn up wearing bikinis has been criticised by the city's major sexual assault centre.

Centre Against Sexual Assault (CASA) manager Helen Makregiorgos said the "Christmas Bikini Party" - as promoted by the central CBD Amber Lounge for this Friday - is both demeaning and a possible breach of alcohol serving laws.

It would also create an environment that could promote sexual assault, Ms Makregiorgos said.

"We're concerned about the whole event ... one, it doesn't encourage responsible alcohol consumption," Ms Makregiorgos said.

"Two, it objectifies women, that is the message it sends ... women are still seen as sexual objects being used to promote a venue."

Ms Makregiorgos is based at CASA House which is attached to the city's Royal Womens Hospital.

The centre receives about 160 cases per year of people, mainly women, who report sexual assaults within the previous two weeks.

About a quarter of all cases were linked to excessive alcohol or drug consumption, she said.

"CASA House does see quite a lot of women who are drug and alcohol-facilitated sexual assaulted in licensed venues and nightclubs, or after they have left," she said adding it was a statewide problem.

"We are also one of 15 CASAs across the state."

The nightclub event has been raised in a complaint to Victoria's Director of Liquor Licensing, which has reportedly written to the organiser asking for an explanation of how it would comply with licensing laws.

Victorian Premier Steve Bracks also said it was up to the organiser to prove they would be serving alcohol responsibly.

"Obviously, you can't prevent people in certain dress codes. They can dress the way they want to," Mr Bracks told reporters.

"But you can obviously determine what is responsible serving of alcohol."

Comment was being sought from the Amber Lounge.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=172943
 
I sense sexual frustration manifested into misogyny anomg the male members of these kind of jurys.
 
tobala said:
If the key witness to any other type of crime was smashed when the crime was committed, the jury would likely be "unsympathetic" to their testimony as well.


end of story as it relates to the intention of the article.

consent vs. not consenting vs. rape is a different issue entirely.
 
In my own encounters as a human being I have been "In the know" of 4 separate rape allegations made. Every single one of the cases was later retracted by the female because a rape never really occurred.

Women need to take this shit more seriously. Men take it very seriously, and so does the criminal justice system. For a woman to make that allegation, she needs to realize the dire nature of such an allegation. That is pulling a trigger that no woman should ever pull unless they were truly taken against their will.

Don't cry wolf, that way it wouldnt be so hard to convict the dirt bags who truly commit such an atrocious act.
 
exactly, not only is it plain stupid to make a false allegation of rape, but it makes it that much harder to convict the next, true rapist.

:(
 
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