Is Ultra Pure Molly pointless?

[jacknimbl]

Someone I met showed me some molly that was in crystal form and it was crystal clear. He said it was triple purified to be 99.9% pure.
Now I don't want to argue if this is even possible or not. Let's assume that it is for the sake of argument. I'm interested in the significance of degrees of purity, as well as impurities.
I've seen a lot of crystal form MDMA, of every color from white brown black and even purple. I've never seen clear like this before. However, I've never noticed a difference in any of it, seems like it all does the same good stuff.
Theoretically speaking, if this clear stuff really is 99% and the "traditional" stuff is 84%, should this change anything? Except the weight of the dosage? I would think the clear stuff at best would only mean you would get equally high using 14% less weight.
In other words, whatever impurities are left over in that usual 14%, they don't affect the high, for the positive or the negative, right? And having extra points of purity only effects dosage, it won't affect the nature of the high?

 

[Bearlove]

Your sort of asking an impossible question - first you would need to know what the impurities are in your batch (regardless if they are 40% 84% or 99%. ) -

If they are inactive then they will not have an effect

If they are active then they will have an effect

Until you know what the impurities are then you cannot really answer the question.

I hope that makes sense

 

[Jabberwocky]

Someone I met showed me some molly that was in crystal form and it was crystal clear. He said it was triple purified to be 99.9% pure.
Now I don't want to argue if this is even possible or not. Let's assume that it is for the sake of argument. I'm interested in the significance of degrees of purity, as well as impurities.
I've seen a lot of crystal form MDMA, of every color from white brown black and even purple. I've never seen clear like this before. However, I've never noticed a difference in any of it, seems like it all does the same good stuff.
Theoretically speaking, if this clear stuff really is 99% and the "traditional" stuff is 84%, should this change anything? Except the weight of the dosage? I would think the clear stuff at best would only mean you would get equally high using 14% less weight.
In other words, whatever impurities are left over in that usual 14%, they don't affect the high, for the positive or the negative, right? And having extra points of purity only effects dosage, it won't affect the nature of the high?

Good questions. You are a bit confused regarding the 84%

First some basic chemistry:

MDMA-HCl is the most common form of MDMA. 100 mg Completely pure MDMA will have 84.7 mg of MDMA and 15.3 mg of HCl. -- AND NOTHING ELSE

The reason there is HCl is to allow the MDMA to become water soluble and be absorbed. MDMA without a salt is non-soluble in water, and a highly corrosive oil

100 mg of 84% pure MDMA would have 71 mg of MDMA 13 mg of HCl and 16 mg of whatever

So yes purity is important.

Reason 1 - purity means less adulterants - purposeful or left over from synthesis -- all are unwanted

Reason 2 - accurate dose, the doses recommended are for pure MDMA (120-150 mg) -- if you have 75% pure MDMA you would need 200 mg of that powder to get a 150 mg dose

If you can corroborate it has been recrystallized 3 times and is MDMA -- get it while you can.

There is a definitive difference in effect between pure MDMA and dirty -- not necessarily significant (although it can be) -- but perceivable -- because there are no other substances affecting your experience

 

[JBrandon]

I do not grasp why this complete misunderstanding of purity w/ regard to molecular weight of the goddamn salt form has become so entrenched in the MDMA scene. No other drug subculture seems to have this problem.

 

[jacknimbl]

So the best possibility is that this triple crystallized stuff is 84.7 MDMA and 15.3mg HCL, but the only difference it will be from what I normally get, will be the amount necessary to roll. It shouldn't affect the experience.

Secondly, for the sake of argument, suppose you are normally getting something that is, I don't know, 75%MDMA and 25%HCL. that's only a 10% difference in purity, therefore, it wouldn't be worth it to pay more than 10% premium for the 84.7% stuff.

 

[JBrandon]

"84.7 MDMA and 15.3 HCl" = 100% pure MDMA.

"75% MDMA and 25% HCl" -> you wouldn't see this in the real world.

1 molecule MDMA and 1 molecule HCl bond together in a 1:1 ratio. The 84.7% to 15.3% part comes from the mass of the components - the MDMA molecule has a greater mass.

If someone says they have 84% MDMA, most chemists are going to assume that means 84% MDMA HCl and 16% bullshit / cut / impurity.

 

[jacknimble]

"75% MDMA and 25% HCl" -> you wouldn't see this in the real world. So basically if someone synthesizes MDMA they either get a 100% pure result, or they failed completely, there is no middle ground? So why does it seem like some of it is better than others?

 

[Bagseed]

I also want to mention that very small amounts of impurities can change the appearance of a batch significantly. all those batches you ever had could have been well over 90% pure and then, the difference gets less significant.

 

[Tranced]

Good questions. You are a bit confused regarding the 84%

First some basic chemistry:

MDMA-HCl is the most common form of MDMA. 100 mg Completely pure MDMA will have 84.7 mg of MDMA and 15.3 mg of HCl. -- AND NOTHING ELSE

The reason there is HCl is to allow the MDMA to become water soluble and be absorbed. MDMA without a salt is non-soluble in water, and a highly corrosive oil

100 mg of 84% pure MDMA would have 71 mg of MDMA 13 mg of HCl and 16 mg of whatever

So yes purity is important.

Reason 1 - purity means less adulterants - purposeful or left over from synthesis -- all are unwanted

Reason 2 - accurate dose, the doses recommended are for pure MDMA (120-150 mg) -- if you have 75% pure MDMA you would need 200 mg of that powder to get a 150 mg dose

If you can corroborate it has been recrystallized 3 times and is MDMA -- get it while you can.

There is a definitive difference in effect between pure MDMA and dirty -- not necessarily significant (although it can be) -- but perceivable -- because there are no other substances affecting your experience

That's really interesting, I never knew. I always wondered why MDMA was always touted as 84% pure.

Either way, anybody who says something had been triple washed or dipped or whatever is talking nonsense. Such information just doesn't make its way from the chemist to the user.

IME MDMA crystals always appear to be roughly the same purity. It takes about 135mg for me to come up nicely without being too messy. This goes for both the brown stuff I've had, and the pure white stuff.

I have known people to have bad quality MDMA though; generally during times of drought.

 

[Bearlove]

I do not grasp why this complete misunderstanding of purity w/ regard to molecular weight of the goddamn salt form has become so entrenched in the MDMA scene. No other drug subculture seems to have this problem.

Have you never heard of 'pint' on beer - 'shot' of liquor?

Meth subculture - points

Heroin subculture - bags / beetles

LSD - milligrams (ug's)


It's a measure that people associate with effect/value for money - people know that you need around (people like more, people like less) 120mg of MDMA for a good time - underdose and it doesn't work that good / overdose and it doesn't work that good.

It has become a bit of a 'thing' in this section where people are focused on knowing the purity of the product to dose exactly the right amount but without some fancy testing equipment your not going to know and its guesswork at best.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

If they crystals are totally clear its likely a research chemical made a professional pharamceutical lab in china.

 

[JBrandon]

"75% MDMA and 25% HCl" -> you wouldn't see this in the real world. So basically if someone synthesizes MDMA they either get a 100% pure result, or they failed completely, there is no middle ground? So why does it seem like some of it is better than others?

No, you could easily have 75% pure mdma. But the 75% would be MDMA-HCl and the 25% would be cut or unreacted precursor / whatever.

1 molecule MDMA + 1 molecule HCl = MDMA-HCl, the "salt" form. MDMA "unsalted" would be an oil.

Go to Wikipedia and read about free bases, salts, and ionization to understand this topic.

 

[JBrandon]

Have you never heard of 'pint' on beer - 'shot' of liquor?

Meth subculture - points

Heroin subculture - bags / beetles

LSD - milligrams (ug's)


It's a measure that people associate with effect/value for money - people know that you need around (people like more, people like less) 120mg of MDMA for a good time - underdose and it doesn't work that good / overdose and it doesn't work that good.

It has become a bit of a 'thing' in this section where people are focused on knowing the purity of the product to dose exactly the right amount but without some fancy testing equipment your not going to know and its guesswork at best.

I wasn't referring to unit of measurement or anything.

It seems only in the MDMA subculture there is this prevalent misunderstanding of purity w/ regard to the salt vs base. People think 84% MDMA is as pure as it gets because they don't understand they don't understand that that number is referring to the relative mass of the MDMA base as part of the MDMA salt complex. You'll see darknet ads touting 84% MDMA all over the place because of this.

When people say "MDMA" they mean "MDMA-HCl", because MDMA without the HCl is an oil. No one is ever talking about MDMA base unless they are the chemist producing it.

So 100% pure MDMA HCl, by relative molecular mass, is made up of 84% MDMA and 16% HCl. This is just mathematics. There is one molecule of HCl attached to 1 molecule of MDMA. The MDMA molecule is larger and has greater mass, hence 84%, as opposed to the lighter HCl which is only making up 16% of the total mass.

I am not sure if I am articulating this well because I'm trying to avoid diving into the calculations and talking about molarity and shit.

 

[Bearlove]

I wasn't referring to unit of measurement or anything.

It seems only in the MDMA subculture there is this prevalent misunderstanding of purity w/ regard to the salt vs base. People think 84% MDMA is as pure as it gets because they don't understand they don't understand that that number is referring to the relative mass of the MDMA base as part of the MDMA salt complex. You'll see darknet ads touting 84% MDMA all over the place because of this.

When people say "MDMA" they mean "MDMA-HCl", because MDMA without the HCl is an oil. No one is ever talking about MDMA base unless they are the chemist producing it.

So 100% pure MDMA HCl, by relative molecular mass, is made up of 84% MDMA and 16% HCl. This is just mathematics. There is one molecule of HCl attached to 1 molecule of MDMA. The MDMA molecule is larger and has greater mass, hence 84%, as opposed to the lighter HCl which is only making up 16% of the total mass.

I am not sure if I am articulating this well because I'm trying to avoid diving into the calculations and talking about molarity and shit.

Did I say you did refer to a unit of measure etc?

You asked a very valid question of why do people in the MDMA scene insist of numbers - I simply gave you an example of other scenes and the terms.

I then went on to explain why people in the MDMA 'Scene' talk about weight compared to purity. You asked a question - I replied with the best of my knowledge.

Your now simply asking the same question - should I repeat myself ?

 

[ShardHUNTER420]

Pure molly or mdma is a very euphoric and empathetic high I prefer mda (sassafrass) more or good ol MA

 

[Jabberwocky]

That's really interesting, I never knew. I always wondered why MDMA was always touted as 84% pure.

Either way, anybody who says something had been triple washed or dipped or whatever is talking nonsense.

Untrue.

Anybody can triple wash mdma crystals or powder. -- you don't have to be a chemist -- and if the source of the powder was actually crushed up pills -- it's a good idea

For example -- MDMA-HCl is functionally insoluble in Acetone and completely insoluble in ether -- but many other substances ARE SOLUBLE.

So washing with acetone and ether will remove non-MDMA contaminants that are soluble in acetone/ether.

 

[bla-ljus]

Untrue.

Anybody can triple wash mdma crystals or powder. -- you don't have to be a chemist.

Why would anyone triple wash?
For the sake of argument, lets assume washing gets rid of 95% of the impurities. Start with 50% pure stuff, wash 1 -> 95% pure stuff.
Wash #2 -> 99.75%
Wash #3 -> 99.999875% (That is 0.18% better).

s. If I'd be starting at 50% stuff I'd stop after second wash. Starting at aboun 90% range, I would not wash more than once. I mean: If your regular dose is 150mg, would it really make difference if you have 150mg or 150.375mg? That is the effective difference between using stuff from wash #2 vs wash #3.

Now, as in real world, each wash also means some substance is lost in the process of washing. If you'd be washing 1g would assume losing quite few mgs in the process. I can't recall my own experiences, but I have the feeling it was something measurable (more than 1 mg).

 

[Bearlove]

Why would anyone triple wash?.

The same reason why people used to 'Double stack' pills :D - Ignorance of the final user.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Why would anyone triple wash?
For the sake of argument, lets assume washing gets rid of 95% of the impurities. Start with 50% pure stuff, wash 1 -> 95% pure stuff.
Wash #2 -> 99.75%
Wash #3 -> 99.999875% (That is 0.18% better).

s. If I'd be starting at 50% stuff I'd stop after second wash. Starting at aboun 90% range, I would not wash more than once. I mean: If your regular dose is 150mg, would it really make difference if you have 150mg or 150.375mg? That is the effective difference between using stuff from wash #2 vs wash #3.

Now, as in real world, each wash also means some substance is lost in the process of washing. If you'd be washing 1g would assume losing quite few mgs in the process. I can't recall my own experiences, but I have the feeling it was something measurable (more than 1 mg).

After wash #1 using your 95% -- there is 2.5% impurities or 25 milligrams per gram (because you said remove 95% of impurities, and there was only 50% impurities -- so only 2.5% left after 1 wash)

After wash #2 that = 1.25 milligrams

After wash #3 that = 62.5 micrograms

If it's safrole -- big deal

If it's Mercury left over from the AL-HG amalgam -- it's a VERY BIG DEAL

Furthermore, washes might be done with different solvents -- in which MDMA is insoluble

impurity #1 may be soluble in solvent X
Impurity #2 may be insoluble in X but soluble in Y
impurity #3 may be insoluble in X and Y but soluble in Z


Lets look at someone washing pills

A pill may weigh 500 mg and only have 100-150 mg of MDMA/MDXX in it

So its 70-80% impurities, not to mention that washing with acetone 3 or 4 times makes it easier for you to get non-soluble impurities out that separate at a different layer than the MDMA (goopy gunk like micro-crystalline cellulose binder)

Does each wash chemically remove 95% of the soluble adulterants? Yep --

is it FUNCTIONALLY separating 95% of all adulterants -- NOT Hardly

 

[bla-ljus]

My bad.
Started with the assumption of same wash, 3 times. Just wanted to point out that having 3 similar washes is waste of time and most likely anyone claiming having done that is pulling your leg.
What would be the 3 washes for MDMA? I can think of 2 obvious ones:
1) Acetone wash to dissolve stuff (but not MDMA). Get rid of the liquid and have more pure mdma.
2) IPA wash to dissolve MDMA. Get rid of the left over solids, evaporate the liquid or use other means to get the MDMA to solid form

Oh, and anything requiring 3 washes must be crap to start with and I would look for other sources.