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Is taking ayahuasca, phenibut, and kratom together safe?

alexvolume2

alexvolume2

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Nov 17, 2009
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Hey guys, I plan on taking an ayahuasca-like mixture of psychotria viridis with Syrian rue as the MAOI. I have 50 grams of the chacruna and 20 grams of rue coming soon. I will be taking approx 5 grams of rue and have not decided on how much chacruna to take in a tea after consuming the rue powdered in a coffee grinder.

I am versed in the classical psychedelics except for DMT and this will be my first time to experience it. I'm 30 years old and in good health physically, but I have a kratom habit of about 30-40 grams per day and a phenibut habit of 5 to 7 grams per day.

What I want to know is if I will be ok to take my maintenance dose of phenibut and kratom the day I take my ayahuasca mix? I would take the drugs about 3 hours apart if that matters.

I also have 12" of a San Pedro cactus that I plan to eat soon. Same question about dosing mescaline with phenibut/kratom, but I mainly want to know about possible negative interactions regarding the aya. I still don't know what to truly expect with the ayahuasca although I've read about it for years.

I hope to gain some insight about my life and multiple addictions during the trip. Thanks!
 
Mescaline with phenibut and kratom is definitely safe (I have had the same combo before). I'm not sure about with ayahuasca, due to the MAOI. My guess is it won't be dangerous but don't quote me on that.
 
Thanks, you're always so helpful when I post, Xorkoth. I'm definitely gonna eat the pedro first and save the ayahuasca until I get some more responses I'm definitely looking forward to it but I'm a little apprehensive about the aya as I'm stepping into the unknown.
 
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Oops something went wrong when I was on mobile BL :(

Anyway as I suspected, there is likely to be problematic interaction between kratom and the MAOI (Syrian Rue) as kratom is an NDRI. I would expect things like hypertension / hypertensive crisis and other very nasty effects.

Check this out for example:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16164203

Some people have tried very light combinations of both and found there to be potentiation, but also warning signs coming with it.
There are more MAOI combinations which - when very low doses are used - could be enjoyable as some monoamines / catecholamine levels are increased by it... but this is playing with fire since it is unpredictable where real overdose territory begins, and when those neurotransmitter levels are increased all over the place that doesn't even necessarily feel euphoric or nice, it can also create nausea and a wide area of other physical problems.

So just don't
 
Wow. Thank you, Solipsis. That's what I was worried about. Seeing as how I'm physically addicted to kratom I will definitely put the ayahuasca on hold.

Now, what's a reasonable length of time to abstain from kratom for it to clear my system? I've been taking 10 to 40 grams daily for several months. I'm guessing a long while, but how long to be safe?

If I were to take loperamide to stave off withdrawals, or even to quit for awhile, would the lope have an interaction with the rue? I have tianeptine which I was planning on using to quit kratom for awhile, but the tianeptine itself is a TCA. That'd be dangerous to mix with an MAOI too, right?

Too many unknown variables. I will have to put ayahuasca on the back burner for a while.

Thank you guys so much. I have more to learn about this. I'd like more input too.
 
Np thats what we're here for..

wiki apparently referencing the Stablon info insert:
Treatment with monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs) 14 days or less prior to treatment with tianeptine. Due to the potential for cardiovascular effects (including hypertension and cardiovascular collapse), convulsions, hyperthermia (high body temperature) and death.
Click to expand...

Anecdotally it has been combined, even prescribed in combination, but yeah I'd err on the side of caution with these serious warnings.

With iboga it is said that it is really best to first taper and go into withdrawals and after the brunt of it or later take the iboga. There are more pharmacological/neuro reasons for that since ibogaine actually acts on opioid receptors directly and/or indirectly... so not sure if that also is best for when using ayahuasca...

Then again the ayahuasca trip may be quite rough if you are still withdrawing too much, if you were to take little time in between. I don't think I wanna attempt calculating halflives for discontinuing your kratom regimen for any recommendations...
I would also hate to recommend going on opioids that are not NDRI's as to avoid those interactions, and loperamide only alleviates w/d partially since it is hardly or not centrally active (some say it does work a bit)... but perhaps there are very mild opioids that would solve the problem of mere maintenance.

But yeah risks abound either way.
 
I used to take kratom a whole lot and was very addicted to it... I'd take 30-60 grams a day, for years on end. I withdrew from it completely a couple of times, one time I even had 8 months away from it. It clears your system faster than many other opiates and I found there to be less issue with PAWS afterwards than with other opiates. Still, it will take probably 5 days to feel like you're getting out of the woods, and another week or so to feel no lingering WD, I would guess. If I were you I'd deal with the kratom first, then the phenibut, as phenibut helps with kratom withdrawals, particularly the emotional aspect. Then to get off phenibut you can either deal with it (though some people report very bad withdrawals... personally it's just made me very anxious and depressed, but with little in the way of physical withdrawal), or you can get some baclofen, it helps a lot, but can also produce dependence so if you go that way, use it as sparingly as you can and stop once you feel better.
 
Yeah, I've thought about going on baclofen since it's also prescribed for alcohol dependence, which I'd likely be able to obtain. Phenibut has been affordable though and maintains it's efficacy even though my tolerance has gone up quite a bit. A separate question is how does baclofen compare to phenibut effects wise? They both work on GABA-B, I thought. I've waited 13 years since I first learned about ayahuasca, I can wait a little longer.

As for substituting other opioids for my kratom, I am unable to because of legal issues involving possible urinalysis. Morphine helped me abstain from heroin, kratom helped me abstain from morphine, and I would rather not go back. It would be convenient though, so I appreciate the suggestion. Haha, I would totally go back on morphine if it meant I could take my ayahuasca. I miss poppy seed tea very much!
 
I find phenibut much better as a recreational drug than baclofen. I have never really gotten euphoria from baclofen, but it's a much stronger muscle relaxer.
 
mix, somehow I do not trust them. Often they are too strong medication and together some ingredients in your body can have side effects. I would recommend caution, probably nothing will happen, but there is always a risk, as with drugs.
 
alexvolume2 said:
Too many unknown variables. I will have to put ayahuasca on the back burner for a while.

Thank you guys so much. I have more to learn about this. I'd like more input too.
Click to expand...

While i don't know much about your more scientific questions, i would still like to share a few thoughts based on my ayahuasca/rue experiences

Your intention (taking ayahuasca to gain insights about your multiple addictions) is the most important thing: you are obviously struggling with at least the kratom now and it seems you would like to get rid of your dependance and reach a "cleaner" state, with the help of ayahuasca and its purging capacities. Well brewed ayahuasca will surely make you purge your poisons, and will surely remind you of the value of healthiness...

You appear to be set on that goal, so may i suggest you deeply ask yourself if postponing for long is in acordance with your true intention?

And while postponing isn't always necessary, neither is jumping right in the deep end: you can also gently test the waters with rue alone, it is indeed powerful enough on it's own. Grind, boil 3 times, decant, reduce, and serve chilled. One day, one gram, the next time a bit more and so on: you get gently acquainted if you are patient, or roughly acquainted if you aren't. Then, if you feel the need, you can add some light to the power...
 
Having been through multiple addictions to crack, heroin, meth, DXM, and benzos I must look deeply within to better understand why I am where I am today.

I know who I am, but as I'm still dependent on substances to get through my day I realize I still have a lot of spirit work to accomplish.

First, I'm going to use the pedro. I'm familiar with mescaline and it allows me to examine my mind in a gentler way. I'm going on a vision quest in a nearby canyon.

I will have to detox for the ayahuasca and I'm not sure if I am ready to do that yet.

I am on BL mobile, so I'll type more soon. I want to go deeper than I have before but I'm a little apprehensive to break my head open that much. I know it will be worth it however.

With DMT I have no idea how deep the rabbit hole goes....
 
I believe we will succeed. It will be a fight and will really heavy moments, but it needs to go. I know it's hard to compare, but I used every day I had to drink some alcohol, for several months I tried to deal with it alone, but something always went wrong and returned to the bottle. It was not until about six months ago, I stopped drinking altogether, helped me girl, but I had some very strong attacks.Where alcohol would do everything, I managed to hold on, but I'm still not sure myself.
 
If you combine a bunch (well, three) of little known, little researched, some powerful (DMT) drugs together at one time, no one is going to be able to insure your safety, so don't kid yourself about it. People (more than one) have been known to die from ayahuasca alone.
 
Can anyone say what would be a completely safe length of time for kratom to clear my system? 1 week, 2? More? I'm just looking for a safe estimate although this may be hard to approximate.
 
The half-life is pretty short. I'd wait til you don't feel shitty anymore (assuming you've got physical dependence), because tripping while withdrawing is no fun.
 
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