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Is serotonin overload real? Why am I still alive?

C

ColoradoBoy90

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Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
219
I don't understand why I haven't gotten serotonin syndrome... The only conclusion I can come to is I'mULTRA LOW ON SEROTONIN (I have signs of it, OCD, anxiety, really clingy to things, etc). As I TAKE, and just took
:1.) 650mg of Tramadol today. 300mg ER, and 350mg of IR. I take this daily... Fromwhat I know Tramadol releases AND reputakes serotonin. And this is a very high dosage..
2.) 30mg Mirtazapine. (at night)
3.) 50mg of Trazadone (at night)
4.) 400mg of L-Trytophan (at night)
5.) 150mg 5-HTP (at night).
6.) Adderall, XR and IR during day
7.) DXM, sometimes.
8.) Hydro/Oxy

I feel like I'm missing something... but either way that's EIGHT meds that affect/increase serotonin. Yet I still feel like I have low serotonin. I remember when I took PROZAC ONLY I felt more confident, less OCD, etc. This combo I don't feel like my serotonin is even "increasing". More like decreasing... Now I just added 10mg of Prozac daily in hopes to get my serotonin levels up. So soon it will be 9 (NINE) serotonin meds, and Prozac being an SSRI that's major..
Trust me, I know what dopamine feels like. I know what serotonin feels like. I'm SUPER LOW on serotonin and I don't want to kill my self. I am low on dopamine also, but I take supplements daily to keep it okay enough.

I thought about taking PROZAC 10mg AND 37.5mg of Effexor in addition to the other 8 meds.... Maybe too much? Or is Tramadol the culprit? I hear it can actually lower serotonin levels. At first I felt it's serotonin effects and was happy. Months later and Now I'm super depressed. But today when I took 400mg of ER? 6 hours later I felt the serotonin feeling, and felt okay again. But that's too high a dose, and I want off Tramadol. Plus if Tramadol releases serotonin I imagine it will deplete it (which is why I take L-Tryptophan and 5HTP) so maybe Tramadol is actually lowering my serotonin levels?
 
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Hey man, you're entering into dangerous territory. I tried to commit suicide by consuming 8mg Alprazolam, 3/4 of a 5th of Whiskey and 30mg of Methadone and survived. It defies reason, but I did. Just because you didn't experience catastrophe this time around doesn't mean you will the next time or the next. We are all different and our unique physiology, among other variables is going to determine how severe our reactions are to a given drug(s).

You need to be more careful.
 
ColoradoBoy90 said:
I thought about taking PROZAC 10mg AND 37.5mg of Effexor in addition to the other 8 meds.... Maybe too much? Or is Tramadol the culprit? I hear it can actually lower serotonin levels. At first I felt it's serotonin effects and was happy. Months later and Now I'm super depressed. But today when I took 400mg of ER? 6 hours later I felt the serotonin feeling, and felt okay again. But that's too high a dose, and I want off Tramadol. Plus if Tramadol releases serotonin I imagine it will deplete it (which is why I take L-Tryptophan and 5HTP) so maybe Tramadol is actually lowering my serotonin levels?
Click to expand...

well tramdol technically inhibits the reuptake of serotonin, afaik it doesn't make you produce more; so i'd venture that no, it doesn't release more serotonin
that's just a guess though, i;d try having a google iiwy

do you have low mood or any sort of depression? could explain a few things

regardless, if you don't get serotonin syndrome soon you'll more than likely suffer a fit - tramadol lowers the seizure threshold
please take steps towards getting off of it, or at least reduce your usage.
 
One day you'll kill yourself with a combo like that, you're really risking your life!
How do you feel like you're low on serotonin ?
Serotonin isn't the only neutotransmitter linked to depression, OCD etc.

You're taking a lot of meds that inhibit SERT and one day it'll lead to serotonn toxicity, please talk to your doctor!

And 650 mg tramadol alone can lead to a seizure...
 
Shouldn't I then be having symptoms of too much serotonin? Also: I take 14-18mg Clonzepam daily, mega doses, which is how I'm able to take that Tramadol dose, and probably everything else.

Prozac and 5HTP used to make me feel normal. No dopamine boosting agents did anything, besides give me that "short lived energy rush with anxiety". I also tried all kinds of dopamine boosters, from Wellbutrin, to DLAP, L-Tryosine, Maca, L-Dopa, etc etc. It gives me energy but all the above listed make depression, anxiety, and OCD worst. Besides Adderall helped, but COMPLETE receptor burnout came from taking 60-80mg night and day after 1-2 years. It got so bad, when I took one it made me feel sick and tired. Before it made me feel so much damn energy, and everything was great, the "cure to depression" -- then tolerance said F** your life. I also was on 60-80mg of Prozac while taking the Adderall. I think my receptors downregulated dopamine, a lot. That was 6 years ago, though. To this day Adderall still doesn't work. Permanent damage? Probably.

Prozac made everything better, so I'm pretty sure it's low serotonin. Also Zoloft did too. Any SSRI helped me, Tramadol gives me anxiety because it's also a SNRI.

I also believe Tramado releases serotonin, that's why the serotonin effects can be felt in a couple hours, the laughing feeling, confident, etc. It's not from the opiod in Tramadol, as I have been on Oxy/Hydro/Opana and even Dialuid. They never gave any feelings like Tramadol did.

Opiods just got me MAJOR Europia and happiness (another "cure" for depression until tolerance said F your life again). After 8-12 months the eurphoia and ALL good feelings STOPED entirely. Now the same opiods suddenly made me feel tired, depressed, etc whenever I took them. If I tripped the rose sometimes
I a "little happiness" for maybe 20 mins, then back to tired and depressed. I totally burnt out all my opiate receptors, etc. tolerance is PURE EVIL.
 
Serotonin syndrome is not universally lethal. I know somebody, an ex gf, my stalker, and a loved one, a dear friend she is, who had serotonin syndrome, nonfatally due to the interaction of lexapro with another antidepressant. She ended up with a blazing hyperthermia, agonizing pain all over her body, collapsed on the floor in her bathroom, and thought that that day, her number was up and she was going to die horribly.

She couldn't get help, she couldn't move, IIRC it was her daughter that called the paramedics. She told me of it afterwards and jesus christ, when my stalker told me of that, I wept for her, that she underwent that awful experience. Let alone the possibility of her no longer existing upon this earth. (she is somebody who I'd give my own life for willingly, if it meant saving her own, organ transplant etc, I'd give her a heart transplant if she needed it, even if I had to walk into the hospital, get tissue typed, and blow my own head off with a pistol before they'd take it out. She is, very special indeed to me. Beautiful, wonderful souled autie girl, sexy as hell, bright, sparky, strong-willed vivaceous 50yo or so lady, who utterly personifies elegance in its every beautiful, perfect aspect)

And what the fuck are you doing, TRYING to induce serotonin syndrome? if you do that, knowing the above, you deserve what you get if you fucking torture yourself to death, KNOWING that it could happen, knowing WHAT could happen, throw seizures on top, and still act in such a way as could lead to you dying after a miserable, drawn out suffering death. That would be the very dictionary definition of 'utter fucking moronic act'

And tramadol is an SNRI as well as an opioid, O-desmethyltramadol is the more potent opioid metabolite
 
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That's real helpful. Does anyone not catch the fact that Tramadol does in fact seem to release serotonin, therefore, it can cause LOW serotonin?

These reputake inhibitors cannot do anything if there is very little serotonin to begin with, as Tramadol is constantly releasing it, and now the brain adapted and lowered serotonin levels heavily.

So even being on all these serotonin drugs, it seems like Tramadol has actually decreased serotonin levels. That's what I've been saying but okay then.

If I die, okay then I die, why do you care? I'd rather die than to live in pure mental torture. If I wanted serotonin overload I'd down a bottle of Prozac and Tramadol and Trazadone, but I'm not actively trying to get Serotonin syndrome. I'm instead asking questions and advice.
SSRI's have been the only help.
So I'm wondering if this is a sign that I'm low on serotonin becauase taking all these things, and NONE OF THEM HELP
LIKE SSRI'S DID. SSRI's alone are more potent serotonin wise than all the above listed meds.

My guess is Tramadol has lowered my serotonin levels by constantly releasing serotonin taking so many pills daily, and the constant releasing has lead to down regulation and low serotonin, so the other meds aren't able to release anymore or reputake much.
I assume to fix this, and to get off a crap load of meds I could take ONLY an SSRI + 5HTP + Adderall would probably help me get back on track after quitting the Tramadol. Adderall only because coming off all that crap, I would need an energy and motivation boost. Obviously I will ask my doctor, but normally if i tell them him I want off these meds and ____ meds has worked better for me, I'll be switched to the correct combo, and NOT stuck on this obviously BAD ONE!! That's my point.
 
The tramadol dose which is already high, mixed with adderall which lowers seizure threshold would have given most 90% of people a seizure. The clonazepam saved you since its one of the best benzos in terms of anticonvulsants. But the dxm on top of that should have given you SS. Also why are you taken 18mg of Klonopin a day?! I can't imagine what you would go through if you tried to quit that. Not to mention the other meds you take for sleep. Like holy shit dude.
 
I'll move this thread to Neuroscience and Pharmacology Discussion as this is more of an in depth question
 
Serotonin syndrome is pretty serious (and obvious) in its presentation. Its not a 100% certain thing where if you have "too much serotonin" you feel awful or whatever.

The major problem here is youre taking more than the reccomended dose of tramadol, that can cause seizures and not neccesarily by its actions on serotonin alone.

The doses of mirtazepine and trazodone are both really low and only at night, I think theyre OK. And 5HTP/tryptophan are actually mostly inactive at effecting central serotonin levels unless massively ODd.

Amphetamine and hydrocodone/oxycdone arent serotonin agonists or reuptake inhibitors either.
 
Sekio is absolutely correct. My ex went through serotonin syndrome. Survived, thank fucking fuck. But she thought she was for it at the time, incapacitated her and left her on the floor truly miserable, in awful pain. When she told me of it I felt miserable myself that she experienced something as absolutely dreadful as she described, and there was nothing she could do about it. She really, really suffered, but she did pull through. She is a tough sonofabitch with a will of iron, in her psychological makeup, she, once she sets her mind on a decision, unless to do otherwise is logical AND acceptable to her, she simply does not bend or break. Not that I try. Shes just like that. Tough fucking cookie, but that took it out of her, I could tell by the way she was about it, a shake in her voice, but it isn't, as sekio says either nothing or dead. There are degrees as with most poisonings. But even she took that one HARD. And my stalker/ex, she is probably the single most absolute most resolute wills and self-demands of self-determination I have ever known, gender irrespective, age irrespective. Not somebody who goes down any other way but fighting every step of the way for herself.

So, don't play around with the kind of combination that you even have to ask 'why am I still alive, is it real?' if you have to ask that, be thankful you don't know. Learn from the responses and act accordingly. Because fatal or otherwise, you most certainly do not want even 'slight' 5-HT syndrome. Its still going to be horrible and make you wish you were dead.
 
ColoradoBoy90 said:
Shouldn't I then be having symptoms of too much serotonin?
Click to expand...
Inhibitory autoreceptors can, up to a certain point, do an okay job at kicking in and decreasing serotonin release when it comes to a lot of the meds you're talking about, especially SSRIs. During the first period of SSRI use, serotonin cell firing is actually known to decrease in some brain regions before said autoreceptors desensitize.

But yeah, its not quite as simple as - low serotonin/monamines = OCD/anxiety/depression

Be aware some of those meds dosages are getting pretty high, while others are relatively low.
 
Yeah, I want to cut Tramadol out entirely. I'm only on all this crap because my body goes crazy without it. I won't take DXM anymore to avoid SS.
It's just as hard to get off Tramadol as Oxy though. Which sucks. I may have to take ultra low dose subs for the WD, as they feel indentical to Hydro/Oxy WD: chills, pain everywhere, violent yawning leading to tears and runny nose, then soon the vomiting starts, and like 20 other horrible things.

Tramadol ER last for 24 hours which it really does last a long time. Last WAY longer than Oxy ER.
ALSO.... I swear the pain relief from Tramadol is stronger than Oxy. Taking 24 hour Tramadol ER really seems to reduce pain, Oxy ER didn't really, but IR Oxy did. Maybe convert a lot of the much stronger o-deso-Tram? And don't covert much Oxy info Oxymorphone? I dunno, but if last way longer and seems very effective for pain. But for like horrible pain, like shooting yourselves in the foot? I'd take Hydro or Oxy of course over Tramadol dos that kinda pain. But the ER seems really good for chronic pain, around 300mg daily Tramadol ER seemed stronger than 40mg Oxy ER for pain.

In fact, 10mg Perc didn't even equal the strength of 100mg Tramadol in terms of stopping opiate WD. Maybe the generic sucked.
As yeah, before bed in order to sleep, I'd need to take 100mg of Tramadol before bed. Well, one night I tried 10mg Perc/Oxycodone IR instead.... it wasn't strong enough. I still had chills, restless legs, sweating, nauseous, and all the other opiate WD symptoms. So I took another half/5mg and then it got rid of most of it, chills still semi there.

I was thinking ultra low dose subs + Effexor (for the SNRI withdrawal) to try, but haven't yet. Ugh, I was better off being dependent on Hydro or Percs than Tramadol

Also isn't mirtazapine the strongest antihistamine ever? If so, I would imagine it would be one of the most potent anti-Nasuea meds, no? Maybe will help when trying to get off Tramadol.
 
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Also, yes, Chicken. I understand. I didn't realize it was that bad, what would happen if you are alone? Can you get back up or do you just possibly die? I'm going to try to remove a couple of the serotonin meds ASAP, as what you said sounds way more horrible than I imagined. I thought it was just headache and feeling sick, and possibly death if way too high (but SS death seems very rare but I don't know the numbers, although I'm sure SS overload without death is semi common). But wow, that does sound terrible and is a wake up call to me. Thank you!
 
Hello

I have just started 5 htp for sleep - which it is working very well for. I'm on a very low dose of oral Amitriptyline (2.5 mg a day). I'm tapering off Amitriptyline super slowly - VERY long story! I know you're not meant to take them together, but would this very low dose have an effect or interaction? I ask as I have dry eyes and my eyes have been VERY sore since starting 5 htp 5 days ago.

Also, if anyone else had this extreme sore eyes reaction - did it wear off eventually or did you have to give up?

Thank you
 
The reason why you didn't get SS is likely because the drugs you listed only have SLIGHT effects on serotonin levels at MOST (maybe doubling or tripling).

At least in animals lethal SS only happens when extracellular serotonin is increased to 30x.

Even going back to humans the combination of an SSRI and an MAOI (which causes a synergistic [super-additive] increase in sero) is usually required to induce SS.
 
No, she described it as the worst pain she could ever imagine (and that from a lass who gets migraines and who has a distinct tendency to set her mind to, or against something, and whatever outcome she seeks, she gets, if that makes sense. She doesn't crack under pressure is what I mean)
and immobilized on her bathroom floor, after an interaction (quite definitely SS) from two serotonergic antidepressants, lexapro was one, forget the other)
along with severe muscle rigidity, and overwhelming skyrocketing of body temperature, as if she was going to cook alive. From the way she spoke of it to me after, she sounded pretty shaken up (and that in itself, in the case of this particular person, shocked me to the core)

And told me she honestly thought her ticket might well have gotten punched that night. Thought she was going to die that night, puking her insides out on the bathroom floor. I'm just glad my stalker (and later g/f, now, sadly ex-gf. One of the two people I've been with in my life that I'd wanted to spend the rest of my days with) pulled through in the end, not just because I'm still crazy about her but she is a dignified lady, someone with real character, who deserves far better, to say nothing of more peaceful, an end whenever her time eventually does come.

Its far, far FAR worse than just 'feeling sick, having a headache and feeling too warm', that comparison is like describing a napalm strike on an oil refinery as 'something that made a bit of a mess'. Yes those core elements are part OF it, but its got nothing on the actual, fuck-ugly reality of it.

As for the dry eyes, could be the amitryptiline, perhaps although thats a low dose, it does have antimuscarinic effects, although that is a tiny dose of amitryptiline. I got a lot of drymouth etc. when on clomipiramine many years ago although at a far higher (equivalent) dose than that. if thr 5HTP-

If the 5-HTP is causing
 
My doctor actually told me that about serotonin syndrome when I asked him he said "you'll get a headache, maybe feel a little sick. It happened to a few of my patients. if that happens just stop taking one of the meds. It's extremely rare, like 1 in a million that it could be life threatening besides some headaches and confusion" -- that's literally what he said.... I thought it was much more serious then that, but according to him nope.....That's kinda what prompted me to ask in the first place.


Anyone have any idea how much 600mg Tramadol (SNRI wise) is equal to how much Effexor ER you would need to replace that, in terms of SNRI strength? I wanna help cover up the SNRI withdrawals of a 600mg Tramadol daily intake using Effexor ER, but have zero idea how strong Effexor ER is SNRI wise vs Tramadol. Being so similar in structure, I have no idea? I tried Subs + 37.5mg Effexor X2 daily but that seemed too weak. So I stopped that "option" after 4-5 days or so.

Now I'm down to like 250-300mg Tramadol daily, I don't know how long that will last once the Subs fully leave my system. So I still take the 50mg Trazadone and 10mg of Prozac at night, and from what I hear Prozac doesn't allow Tramadol to convert to o-desmo, as it blocks the CYP2D6 which I'm not sure if it's SNRI properties from Tramadol come from it breaking down into
It's o-deso form..... or if even if the Tramadol isn't converted over to its o-Deso form if Tramadol still acts as a potent SNRI? From what I read, Tramadol works 10:1 ratio in favor of serotonin over norpherhine (sp?)

So I'm not sure if my combo is "safer" since I'm taking less Tramadol daily, or if it's still way too risky and I need to just stop. My doctor doesn't seem to be very bright, he says Tramadol is not an opiod and doesn't cause WD. Right...
 
I dont think you have low serotonin if all that stuff isnt fulfilling you. You sound confused with Endorphin/Opiod receptors and serotonin. Maybe just try shooting dope instead of doing all this honestly.

Also the amounts of serotonin/dopamine/etc. dont have to do with How they are working and which parts of the brain they are opening up in.
 
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xbandit07x said:
I dont think you have low serotonin if all that stuff isnt fulfilling you. You sound confused with Endorphin/Opiod receptors and serotonin. Maybe just try shooting dope instead of doing all this honestly.

Also the amounts of serotonin/dopamine/etc. dont have to do with How they are working and which parts of the brain they are opening up in.
Click to expand...
^^^ Yeah, I do get them mixed up. But I firmly believe I have low serotonin. I suffer from EXTREME attachment disorder to people I love, enough to want to kill myself 24/7. It's like a dog with the worst attachment anxiety ever, crying and wanting to die because they think their owner is never coming back. That's my life 24/7, but more complex.

All I know is THIS:
1.) Prozac was the first drug I ever took. It helped my depresssion somewhat, it reduced my OCD by 50-70%. Quite a bit. OCD ties into my attachment problem. It helped stopped the obsessive thoughts. I was more apathetic (thank GOD!!) as that's way better than being suicidal 24/7 for life. No doctor knows how to treat me, and serotonin is the only chemical that is known that can help reduce it.

2.) Adderall was the 2ns drug I took. MY GOD did it CURE depression. It didn't help OCD. I was HAPPY, OUTGOING, FULL OF MOTIVATION, I loved life!!! I was so good at work I got promote to the highest position!!! I took 15mg X 4 daily. Yes, I took too much and shouldn't have abused them with energy drinks. It worked SO GOOD FOR 1 year or so. THEN? One day it started to stop working. Then it caused REVERSE effects. So when I took it, I got tired, felt like a zombie, almost felt sick!!!! It was crazy how I went from on top of the world to I can hardly function and I was dead on the inside. My receptors died. My
Adrenal glands died.
I'm WORRIED I caused permanent damage via down regulation or receptors dying... I would take 60mg daily and 2-4 cops of coffee or energy drinks with each pill!!! Now 7 years later I STILL CANNOT feel Adderall!!

3.) After Adderall stopped working I tried Vicodin. It made me FULL of energy, happy, etc. Not as good as Adderall (energy and motivation wise) but it's hard to say what caused more europhia. ANYWAYS, after about 1 year of taking Vicodin/Oxy I went from happy, full of energy, outgoing, etc to... PURE FATIGUE. Suddenly every pill made me feel tired and depressed. WTF? I guess I burn out my opiate receptors, along with serotonin and dopamine/etc.

4.) I moved over to Tramadol. It made me feel good for like a month then stopped. I don't know why. I didn't feel good from the opiod because I was just on Oxy for 5-7 year. It was the SNRI that made me feel really good.

Now Tramadol stopped and I feel like shit. Why the hell did the SNRI effects stop after only 4 or so months?? All other antidepressants I took lasted years or forever, nor just months...

So I dunno what I am low on. But I DO know that dopamine increase gives more OCD and anxiety, same with increasing NE levels....


Any ideas, anyone?
 
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