Is LSD-25 even a classical psychedelic?

[thegreenhand]

well thinking it over, calling the term "useless" is not quite right. I guess it depends on the context in which one is talking about these drugs. from a pharmacology / chemistry viewpoint, it really doesn't make sense to use it, but since culture and the "hive mind" is very much at work shaping the psychedelic experiences people have, it makes sense to differentiate between psychedelics which have an appreciable history of consumption (decades with LSD, much much longer with plant and fungi based psychedelics) when talking about it from a sociology point of view.

Yeah I definitely approached this from the structure/pharmacology point of view so it’s interesting to see most people define it based primarily on other factors

 

[clubcard]

Has anyone else calculated the minimum energy conformation of the NBOMe series and overlaid it with LSD? The -O-CH3 overlays the =O of LSD and it appears that the benzene ring acts like the N-(cycloalkyl) moiety i.e. space-filling.

 

[cosmic charlie]

When I think of the term “classic psychedelic” 4 psychedelic drugs come to mind...

-Psilocybin
-LSD
-Mescaline
-DMT

IMO if you have these you don’t really need much else.

-GC

All of those are golden, maybe you could through a bit of 2C-B in the mix for good measure as it also ascends toward classical status.

 

[thegreenhand]

Has anyone else calculated the minimum energy conformation of the NBOMe series and overlaid it with LSD? The -O-CH3 overlays the =O of LSD and it appears that the benzene ring acts like the N-(cycloalkyl) moiety i.e. space-filling.

^ i would be interested as well

 

[tired of crap]

Great band

 

[thegreenhand]

sorry mods for creating this mess of a thread lol

 

[G_Chem]

It wouldn’t be BL if it didn’t get messy

But yea I think you are indeed looking at the term in too strict of a light. IMO the definition of “classic psychedelic” is one which has stood the test of time, similar to classical music. This is obviously open to interpretation.

-GC

 

[Vastness]

As has been noted "classical" in the context of psychedelics is a cultural invention and a somewhat loosely defined term. But in my view classical psychedelics are those that produce their psychedelic effects primarily via serotonergic mechanisms, specifically (but not exclusively) action on the 5-HT2x family of receptors, primarily 5-HT2a. In that sense I would consider tryptamines to be the most "classical" family of psychedelics, followed by lysergamides which contain tryptamine groups and exhibit similar binding profiles, followed by phenthylamines which tend to have more complex receptor binding profiles and a wider array of effects. Dilution of effect profiles more suitably described by other effect-oriented class descriptors, such as stimulants, for example, in the case of MDMA, IMO makes a psychedelic less "classical", for example I would not consider MDMA to be a classical psychedelic even though it might have psychedelic effects, nor, in fact, would I consider most of the phenethylamines to really belong to the "classical" descriptor in the strictest sense.

Of course there is also a historical context to the usage of this term, which in my view narrows down the field somewhat from the vast array of substituted tryptamines and more recently discovered or just very rarely synthesised compounds with very little known about them to, probably, the first few discoveries in any given chemical grouping that enjoyed some period of widespread use. In that sense, LSD as the first lysergamide definitely meets all the criteria to be called a "classical" psychedelic, as does psilocybin, the first isolated tryptamine which historically is also surely the most widely used given it's occurrence in nature - I'm going to extend this description to psilocin too for reasons that probably don't really need to be explained. The latter point about use in nature obviously applies to mescaline too, and of the phenethylamines, in deference to Alexander Shulgin, I would allow that 2C-B could be considered to be classical as well as the first and probably most widely used substance of this particular class.

So in my view in the strictest sense the classical psychedelics would include LSD, Psilocybin Mushrooms, synthetic psilocybin or psilocin, mescaline, and 2C-B.

Personally I would say that definition should be broadened a little to include basically all known lysergamides given how similar they are to each other - unless one is discovered which is radically different somehow - most, maybe all, of the 4-substituted tryptamines - maybe all tryptamines, in fact - and most of the 2C-x class. Maybe most mescaline analogues too.

One final thing I would add is that in a cultural context "classical psychedelic" is typically understood, I think, to refer to a substance which, physiologically, is very safe - and this definition does not apply to a larger proportion of the phenthylamines which is why I am a lot more hesitant to include them under the "classical" umbrella. For example Bromo-DragonFLY, 2C-T-x compounds, the DOx family, are significantly more dangerous and therefore I would exclude them from the "classical" descriptor.

Dissociatives of course are not classical at all and although some of them can produce psychedelic effects I do not believe them to be real psychedelics and have argued that point many times on this board, so I'll just reiterate it here in case anyone was wondering.

Obviously there are probably some edge cases I haven't considered - but again, it's a hazy term, that's just unavoidable. But, that's my interpretation of the kind of substances that "classical psychedelic" refers to, and LSD fits very very solidly into it.

 

[clubcard]

^ i would be interested as well

Just to be clear, the O: orientation & position overlaid perfectly.

 

[Xorkoth]

"Classical" psychedelic just means that it has effects like the originals. And LSD is one of the originals, absolutely.

LSD is not the only psychedelic with dopaminergic activity. It has the fyull range of psychedelic effects, and constitutes one of the 3 main branches of psychedelic molecule (phenethylamine, tryptamine, lysergamide). Each is different. At low doses, LSD has little in the way of dopaminergic activity, but as the dose increases, so does the prevalence of dopaminergic effects.

 

[fastandbulbous]

LSD is a classic psychedelic, as in it's structure is contained the skeleton of phenethylamine, tryptamine as well as being a lysergamide...

 

[fastandbulbous]

"Classical" psychedelic just means that it has effects like the originals. And LSD is one of the originals, absolutely.

LSD is not the only psychedelic with dopaminergic activity. It has the fyull range of psychedelic effects, and constitutes one of the 3 main branches of psychedelic molecule (phenethylamine, tryptamine, lysergamide). Each is different. At low doses, LSD has little in the way of dopaminergic activity, but as the dose increases, so does the prevalence of dopaminergic effects.

Damn, only beaten to the reply, by a year and a month (you are becoming older and slower, Kevin! ).

 

[Xorkoth]

As are we all...

it's nice seeing you around these parts again, man.

 

[FuckinAcidMan]

LSD is a jazz-fusion psychedelic

I think mushrooms/mescaline are more classical