Is It Wrong to Not Euthanize Sick Animals?

[bird.brain]

TL;DR

Is God's plan imperfect?
Does suffering need to be edited by humans?

Do animals suffer in the same way humans do?
Are we projecting our own emotions onto our animals?

If animals can't consent to euthanasia (because they are animals, not because they are braindead) isn't it - at least, potentially - murder?

We keep people alive no matter what, in most situations. Even if there is no quality of life and a never ending torrent of pain and suffering, we don't give up.

If animals should be euthanized because we decide that they are suffering too much, should we also apply that logic to severely disabled people?

...

My cat wasn't suffering when I put her down. I was under pressure from my wife and her family and the vet (to a lesser extent).

From my perspective, she wasn't suffering. My wife had a childhood dog that they kept alive when it couldn't walk and had no bladder control. Dogs have no shame and nor do cats, really, relative to humans. A big part of suffering is dignity, I think.

This cat was a soldier. If she was a human, she'd be among the most hardened people on Earth.

She developed a thyroid condition, causing her body to fill up with fluids. They also diagnosed a heart condition at the same time. So we fed her diuretics, with other meds, as long as we could. Then she had to be drained. The meds stopped working. In order to remain alive, she would have to be drained repeatedly.

The vet who drained her months ago said she might have colon cancer. In the past month or two, she has developed a large mammary tumour.

She hadn't eaten anything for about a week, I think, and she wasn't drinking water either... I told my wife, who was very distressed about the whole situation, if I couldn't get her to eat today I would take her to be put down.

It is against my beliefs. I realize that I shouldn't force her alive either. We had stopped giving her meds at the end because she wasn't eating.

I could see her processing death. Sitting there, silently going through the same stages we all go through. She needed that time, I think.

I'm sure she was hiding a lot of pain - cat's have an extraordinarily high natural tolerance to pain - but she wasn't suffering. She can withstand more pain than I can. Her body was shutting down. I think people find it hard to sit around and slowly watch an animal die. I suspect we euthanize them more for ourselves, sometimes.

She flinched when the vet injected her with a sedative. She was extremely sedated when he put her to sleep. I was looking right into her pupils and they were shifting like the aperture of a malfunctioning camera.

It felt wrong.

I cried a lot today and I kept saying "sorry" to her.

I'm not sure how I feel about it, now. Is it fair for her to starve to death to satisfy my own beliefs?

My wife didn't want to let her outside in the last couple of days of her life, in case she crawled under the house to die... which I'm sure is exactly what she would've done.

Isn't that what cats do?
And, who are we to know better?

I'm not sure if I did something kind today or something horribly cruel... Probably a bit of both?

 

[ChemicallyEnhanced]

IMO it's selfish with pets. To keep them alive if they are very sick and/or in a lot of pain they won't recover from. You're basically forcing it to suffer because YOU want it to stay alive.

I'm generalizing, btw, and when I say "you", I mean the general, "you", not YOU or your example in particular.

There is no god, so I wouldn't say that comes into it.

 

[1tbps]

IMO, it depends on the severity of the sickness. If they're screaming from pain, it would probably be best, but if they're just on their last leg, then they have their moments of happiness.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I don't know.... is it really selfish not to put them down? How could we hold such an opinion when doing the same thing for humans is considered, by some, to be an ungodly sin that you'll burn in hell for?

Why is assisted suicide for suffering humans so controversial yet everyone thinks doing it for animals is the humane thing to do?

The word "humane" itself is weird to me.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

I don't know.... is it really selfish not to put them down? How could we hold such an opinion when doing the same thing for humans is considered, by some, to be an ungodly sin that you'll burn in hell for?

Why is assisted suicide for suffering humans so controversial yet everyone thinks doing it for animals is the humane thing to do?

The word "humane" itself is weird to me.

Sadly, in some parts of the world euthanasia for humans is becoming not only possible, but painted as "humane".

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Sadly, in some parts of the world euthanasia for humans is becoming not only possible, but painted as "humane".

These waters get murky really quickly when I think about it. A lot of human suffering is inflicted by other humans. Some is just nature or circumstance.

I believe one of the greatest travesties of human evolution is that we have attempted to consciously separate ourselves from nature itself. That we are objectively different from the world that we are born from. That we are not simply animals ourselves.

I look at suffering in nature and human suffering in much of the same light.

Is a lion viciously tearing a baby animal to death evil? We call that "nature"... the cycle of life. If an animal freezes to death during a blizzard. If a deer is walking around with a severe parasitic infection.... we consider these things normal, and we do not intervene.

Yet if any of those things happened to a human it's an unnatural abomination that is evil and not supposed to happen?

I think about this quite often.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

These waters get murky really quickly when I think about it. A lot of human suffering is inflicted by other humans. Some is just nature or circumstance.

I believe one of the greatest travesties of human evolution is that we have attempted to consciously separate ourselves from nature itself. That we are objectively different from the world that we are born from. That we are not simply animals ourselves.

I look at suffering in nature and human suffering in much of the same light.

Is a lion viciously tearing a baby animal to death evil? We call that "nature"... the cycle of life. If an animal freezes to death during a blizzard. If a deer is walking around with a severe parasitic infection.... we consider these things normal, and we do not intervene.

Yet if any of those things happened to a human it's an unnatural abomination that is evil and not supposed to happen?

I think about this quite often.

The number of Euthanasia procedures in humans is increasing in Canada. Canada now will even pay for your Euthanasia Procedure.

Right or wrong, I'm not making a judgement. I'm just making an observation.

Euthanasia in Canada

Life is getting less value in this world IMHO.

 

[1tbps]

I don't know.... is it really selfish not to put them down? How could we hold such an opinion when doing the same thing for humans is considered, by some, to be an ungodly sin that you'll burn in hell for?

Why is assisted suicide for suffering humans so controversial yet everyone thinks doing it for animals is the humane thing to do?

The word "humane" itself is weird to me.

Crazy world. How dare they...

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

I have thought on this for some time.
If I was in a shape of being that living made my life unbearable and become a burden and pain to those around that may have to endure what I go through... I will put myself down.
As much as I even hate to think of one of my familiars reaching a place of suffering and disability to be themselves in relative comfort /quality of life we have decided it best to let them "sleep" and employ this in our home and make it personal instead of clinical.
And, yes; felines tend to go off and suffer in silence and die alone in a place that they are basically "entombed" or feel they are.
Oh how I rue the day.

Sorry gotta leave this thread.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

We need euthanising as a species to protect the planet.


That is all...

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

We need euthanising as a species to protect the planet.


That is all...

One never knows, we may be flirting with this as we speak. The world's combined nuclear force stockpiles far exceeds the required capacity.

 

[alasdairm]

so sorry to hear this bird.

i think you know your pet better than anybody and it's a very personal decision and i would hope your pet would help guide you.

i think if your pet is in pain or otherwise suffering, it is an act of love to put them down. if you (plural) disagree, see the previous paragraph.

alasdair

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

so sorry to hear this bird.

i think you know your pet better than anybody and it's a very personal decision and i would hope your pet would help guide you.

i think if your pet is in pain or otherwise suffering, it is an act of love to put them down. if you (plural) disagree, see the previous paragraph.

alasdair

One should always follow one's heart,

 

[G_Chem]

I think the real topic of discussion here is why we feel the need to keep humans alive at all costs, despite feeling pure agony and no quality of life. I’d say we are more humane with our animals at times.

-GC

 

[Jerry Atrick]

TL;DR

Is God's plan imperfect?
Does suffering need to be edited by humans?

Do animals suffer in the same way humans do?
Are we projecting our own emotions onto our animals?

If animals can't consent to euthanasia (because they are animals, not because they are braindead) isn't it - at least, potentially - murder?

We keep people alive no matter what, in most situations. Even if there is no quality of life and a never ending torrent of pain and suffering, we don't give up.

If animals should be euthanized because we decide that they are suffering too much, should we also apply that logic to severely disabled people?

...

My cat wasn't suffering when I put her down. I was under pressure from my wife and her family and the vet (to a lesser extent).

From my perspective, she wasn't suffering. My wife had a childhood dog that they kept alive when it couldn't walk and had no bladder control. Dogs have no shame and nor do cats, really, relative to humans. A big part of suffering is dignity, I think.

This cat was a soldier. If she was a human, she'd be among the most hardened people on Earth.

She developed a thyroid condition, causing her body to fill up with fluids. They also diagnosed a heart condition at the same time. So we fed her diuretics, with other meds, as long as we could. Then she had to be drained. The meds stopped working. In order to remain alive, she would have to be drained repeatedly.

The vet who drained her months ago said she might have colon cancer. In the past month or two, she has developed a large mammary tumour.

She hadn't eaten anything for about a week, I think, and she wasn't drinking water either... I told my wife, who was very distressed about the whole situation, if I couldn't get her to eat today I would take her to be put down.

It is against my beliefs. I realize that I shouldn't force her alive either. We had stopped giving her meds at the end because she wasn't eating.

I could see her processing death. Sitting there, silently going through the same stages we all go through. She needed that time, I think.

I'm sure she was hiding a lot of pain - cat's have an extraordinarily high natural tolerance to pain - but she wasn't suffering. She can withstand more pain than I can. Her body was shutting down. I think people find it hard to sit around and slowly watch an animal die. I suspect we euthanize them more for ourselves, sometimes.

She flinched when the vet injected her with a sedative. She was extremely sedated when he put her to sleep. I was looking right into her pupils and they were shifting like the aperture of a malfunctioning camera.

It felt wrong.

I cried a lot today and I kept saying "sorry" to her.

I'm not sure how I feel about it, now. Is it fair for her to starve to death to satisfy my own beliefs?

My wife didn't want to let her outside in the last couple of days of her life, in case she crawled under the house to die... which I'm sure is exactly what she would've done.

Isn't that what cats do?
And, who are we to know better?

I'm not sure if I did something kind today or something horribly cruel... Probably a bit of both?

I'm sorry to hear about your kitty, birdbrain. I know it is tough to process but I think it is a very difficult decision yet one many of us have to make as we navigate life with our furry companions.

I don't want to make this thread about me but would like to share a bit about my own cat. She was 18 years old and had pretty much the exact opposite problem your cat had. My cat suffered from chronic kidney disease for the last year of her life. She couldn't retain fluids, or rather her kidneys quit filtering fluids. For about a year I had to administer subcutaneous injections of saline every couple of days. This consisted of keeping an IV bag next to the couch and sticking an 18 ga. needle in her front shoulder area and letting it drip for several minutes until the proper amount had been given. At first I could sort of trick her into sitting next to me on the sofa for snuggles and gently holding her down while wrapped in a towel. Towards the end though, I had to pick her up and carry her to the couch and do it while sometimes she resisted and other times she resigned to accept the injections. It was quite traumatic for both of us, of course her more then me. I knew the injections were painful but I just wanted her to keep living and the vet was happy to continue selling me saline bags. At one point I stopped the injections just to see what would happen. Within 24 hours she visibly began losing weight and wouldn't eat. I knew then that she had to have the injections just to live.

So I found some chart online that helped measure or quantify a cat's quality of life. I tallied the marks and determined it was time. I was able to hire a vet who only does at-home euthanizing. I knew taking her to the vet's office to do it would be way more stressful than doing it in the comfort of her home.

This was a little more than 2 years ago and I still miss her. She was my closest consistent friend for 18 years. That day was probably the first time I've cried in 20 years and cry I did. I've held it together at human funerals better than this.

Really the most useful info the vet told me was that cat's don't show pain like humans. So while we know they are suffering due to lab tests and certain behaviors, they usually aren't going to cry out in pain. It just isn't in their nature. My point is that sometimes we have to make difficult decisions because IMHO allowing our companions to suffer in agony is worse than the pain we feel when we have to put them down. It's just so hard because they aren't crying or complaining like we do so we second guess our decision when the time comes.

As for humans, I absolutely believe we should be able to choose when we go if our suffering is that bad. I made out a Living Will several years ago and even filled out a Do Not Resuscitate form because I'd rather die than be plugged into the wall to keep me alive. Kind of morbid to think about but I feel making end of life decisions pre-emptively can save our families a lot of pain because we have essentially made the decision for them rather than have them fight and bicker or feel guilt over whether or not to pull the proverbial plug.

I hope you and your family feel better. It's never easy but sometimes the right decision is also the most difficult one

 

[AngelsandFairiesarereal]

I’m so sorry for your loss, try to be gentle with yourself in this time. They are our family, I also feel like they are angels that come to this earth to touch our hearts.
You have my empathy, I’ve lost a few of my fur babies over the years. My dog passing years ago really hit me, I’ll always remember that last night laying with her on the floor. Man I cried for almost three months after that. I think no matter what we always question everything. Your love is undeniable

Sending you support, strength & many prayers

 

[bird.brain]

It's comforting hearing stories about how meaningful pets have been in some of your lives. Thanks for all the responses.

I didn't want the thread to be about me. I just tend to go off on tangents and lost track of what I'm saying when I'm stoned.

I was able to hire a vet who only does at-home euthanizing. I knew taking her to the vet's office to do it would be way more stressful than doing it in the comfort of her home.

I regret not doing this. My relationship is under severe strain so I didn't devote as much time to her last weeks/months as I could have. Since having kids, I've become much more distant with my cats. I had three. Now there are two left. One of them, the biggest one, he's huge, refuses to stop spraying in the house because he's so anxious and he desperately wants to stay inside which means he can't come inside unless supervised and even then it's hard sometimes when I have my hands full.

I was very upset on the day. Two days later, I'm fine. I have processed it. I think when people hold back tears for a long time, it's hard to turn them off once they really start flowing.

I never saw my dad cry until he gave a eulogy at his father's funeral. He was always so confident. He ran a huge company. He gave speeches to thousands of people. He lectured at a prestigious university. Then - at the funeral - he just cracked and you could see that it surprised him and he was embarrassed and I felt so sorry for him.

I, too, found my cat's death more confronting than some people who have died.

She was such a gentle cat. The sort of cat that you can pick up at any time and she just goes limp in your hand immediately. She hunted God knows how many rats, mice and birds in her life. She's always been tiny. Never had any interest eating more than precisely what she needs to function. She had two kittens when she was young. Small cats tend to have small litters.

She gave birth on the carpet of my bedroom beside the window sill.

Those were crazy, drug-fuelled times... and, she was always there for me if I needed her. A living, loving teddy bear.

My biggest cat - the one I have to keep outside on account of the spraying - has been jealous of her for a long time. I used to walk around with him sitting on my shoulder, like a parrot. He was definitely my favourite, until she came along. Now, he's stuck outside.

I hugged her through thousands of trips.

She was always somehow able to instantly treat my depression. If I put my face up to her and listen to her heartbeat, I'd know that everything was okay.

...

I didn't use to like cats. I had basically no interaction with them whatsoever until one day I followed my friend's cat into his parent's built in robe and tried to pat it like I would pat a dog. It sliced me down the arm. Took me about ten years before I realized how awesome they are.

I understand why some dog people don't see the value in cats. They have no facial expressions. They sleep 16 hours a day. From a distance, it's easy to think they don't have a lot of room for personality.

I try to find a silver lining when something bad happens. It gives the event meaning. We don't spend enough time with each other. That's what you realize when someone dies.

I'm going to spend more time with my cats now. I haven't tried anywhere near as hard as I could to fix the spraying issue. He's been stuck outside for too long. I owe it to him to try.

The other positive thing to come out of this is: I shouldn't be holding my tears back. That's not healthy.

As for humans, I absolutely believe we should be able to choose when we go if our suffering is that bad. I made out a Living Will several years ago and even filled out a Do Not Resuscitate form because I'd rather die than be plugged into the wall to keep me alive. Kind of morbid to think about but I feel making end of life decisions pre-emptively can save our families a lot of pain because we have essentially made the decision for them rather than have them fight and bicker or feel guilt over whether or not to pull the proverbial plug.

I have worked in disability over the course of 20 odd years and I have witnessed a lot of situations where people are told they are going to be vegetables and have no quality of life and not be able to walk or drive, etc. I've seen people rewire their brains in extraordinary ways. It takes years sometimes. I would try, but that's choice. If people want to die, have at it. I don't have a problem with euthanasia morally/ethically/whatever. I think religion is wrong when it condemns suicide. Suicide can be noble. There's really not a huge difference between suicide and euthanasia unless you physically can't end your own life and you need somebody to do it for you.

I've worked with people who have no chance of improving and pretty much their entire life is (as best we can tell) suffering. But - like with my cat - I have a hard time making that decision for them. I think the reason we keep humans alive for so long is because it's so damn hard to kill a human that you love. It's hard enough to do it with a cat. I imagine a person would be another level altogether.

I'm not talking about people who are brain dead or comatose. That's not really suffering from what I can see. I mean people in pain all day who have close to zero chance at ever making friends with anyone let alone having a romantic relationship. People who require care so complex they need at least 2:1 staff with them 24 hours a day.

The suffering you see sometimes isn't like people who are depressed or people who are mourning. It's like something out of a horror movie.

Not a lot of job satisfaction in being paid to torture people by keeping them alive forever on a technicality. So, now I pick and chose who I work this. I support people who have some quality of life. I do this for my sanity. I've done my time in the trenches.

We can't kill these people for their own good if they can't consent. Can we? How would that ever work?

Does it apply to dementia? If so, at what stage do you do it? Who decides when you're suffering sufficiently to warrant being euthanized, if you can't make the decision?

I worked in a little suburban nursing home with fourteen patients, all whom had advanced dementia. It wasn't pretty, but we have no choice to continue like this. Right?

They always do "royal commissions" in Australia. They did a royal commission into the aged care problem. They investigated everything, thoroughly. It cost a lot of money. It took fucking ages. Then, unsurprisingly, nothing good comes of it. Because, it is what it is more or less. You can't really fix it... You can take out the people who shouldn't be there and increase funding but sometimes it doesn't matter what you do. Sometimes people are just destined to suffer, I guess. It's really fucked up.

At the extreme end of it, these people never get visitations from their family.

This sounds horrible - how could they abandon their family? - but it made sense to me after a short while. When there is basically zero capacity for any human relationship. And/or they scream and hit or bite and throw chairs at you or pull their hair out. The amount of unreported abuse that occurs towards medical staff is staggering. Some people that require support are so difficult they need to be chemically restrained or even "manually" restrained on a regular basis. It can be pretty full on.

I'm rambling again.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

in the netherlands they even let rape victims euthanize themselves cause of trauma.

I support euthanasia in all forms. If somebody wants to end their life cause they are sick of suffering let them.

When this comes to animals i support putting them down when they are terminal and in great pain and going to die anyway.

we are bought into this world against our own will. People should have the right to end their lives on their own terms.

 

[bird.brain]

@TripSitterNZ

While I mostly agree with you, I think a lot of time when people are feeling suicidal, they are just depressed and it will pass. I don't think we should be euthanizing teenagers without question.