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Benzos Is it true that benzos are safer than anti-psychotics

AvenaSativa

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
58
After being in around half a dozen mental hospitals and knowing a bunch of people on psych meds I'm fully convinced that benzos are safer than most psych meds, particularly anti-psychotics. The side effects are crazy. The withdrawal is horrible. When I was on seroquel it'd incapacitate me, I tried walking 2 blocks to a Family Dollar and had to turn around and sit down every few steps. Abilify made me feel like hell, it helped my mood barely. My wife is on depakote and I keep telling her how much I notice it messes with her.

It's strange how difficult getting a benzo prescription is. Benzos fully clear my mind, ease my body, and have no side effects taken at a medical dose (I never take more than 2mg). The only side effect I could name is tiredness, but it makes me nowhere near as tired as hydroxyzine (which does help my anxiety and tension, just not as much).

I also take an SSRI, and paxil does work for my depression and anxiety, and I love it. I wish I could deal with myself so well without it. So I'm not dissing all psych meds, just anti-psychotics mainly. And I find it an atrocity how I can't get a prescription for my stress and anxiety when a dope addict can.

Is there any information out there either supporting or refuting my observation of and experience with psych meds?
 
i thought i was the only one. benzos are the only thing that works w\o horrrible side effects. depakote, seroquel, lithium side effects were soooo bad and the docs could care less. it got so bad my thyroid was malfunctioning and causing major problems. docs seem to be scared to give out even weak benzos but will load you up on anti psychotics and mood stabilizers until youre fat, zombied out without a second thought, in fact in my experience, not even caring what their drugs are doing to you
 
Except for benzos also have terrible wds. Objectively the worst wds.

Also all side effects are personal.. Withdrawal is one thing but man the list of side effects on any given drug is kind of ridiculous. I mean if anyone ever had a related or non related symptom while taking a medicine they slap it on the side effect list.

Its all a cost benefit thing. Does the benefit of taking the drug out way the negatives.

With benzos the negatives would be chemical slavery, rebound anxiety or withdrawals on cessation and possible other side effects that are personalized.
 
Benzo withdrawal is more severe and can kill you..

And if you suffer from schizophrenia anti-psychotics should help way more than benzos, but if you don't need anti-psychotics to live a normal life imo it's best to stay away from them
 
I mean, they're supposed to be prescribed short term (no doctor follows this) but I think they're safer than both SSRI's and anti-psychotics.
 
I'd say it's true benzos are safer I'm on olanzapine,zopiclone,diazepam and methadone i also take diphenhydramine for sleep lf i don't take my olanzapine I suffer with all full side affects and can't sleep after 3/4 days with no sleep I have to take it so I'm dependent on it.
 
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It all depends on your definition of safer. As was mentioned, benzo WD can kill you (only substance aside from alcohol which is capable of this). However, will benzos cause you to completely lose your mind and go all Manchurian Candidate? No. I have been on Valium off and on for over a decade, and I can tell you I have SEVERE memory impairment already at 31.

However, I was also on antipsychotics at one point, and Seroquel withdrawal was some of the most horrendous I've ever experienced (And I've WD'd from opiates, benzos, the dreaded Effexor, etc).... I weaned down to literal crumbs of Seroquel and as soon as I went to zero all hell broke loose. It was totally incapacitating.

So again, it all depends on your definition of safe. Personally I don't think antipsychotics are "safe" for anyone but the truly non-functioning, window-licking types. However, benzos and memory loss/dementia is a real concern.

As far as overdose, benzos alone cannot be overdosed on. Lethal dose has not even been established in humans. Mix with alcohol or opiates, however, and it can easily be nighty-night.
 
Why is it that benzos alone are nigh impossible to die from OD on?

I assume alcohol poisoning OD has more to do with the toxicity of alcohol than it's gaba effects but still as a CNS depressant when mixed with others such as opiates it is such a recipe for death?

Seems to me if benzos are such a culprit in cns depression with opiates then it should be pretty dangerous on it's own in benzo naive people at least.

I guess it would make sense since they synergize and If benzos would exponentially increase cns depression from opiates or alcohol like x2.
 
Well my GP would most likely agree with you there. He usually doesn't put people on Anti-Psychotics unless they've had a full physical done and mood stabilizers like Lamictal and Lithium don't work. He's even wary of giving me Prochlorperazine for nausea ffs. However since I've been on Benzos for over a decade with no problems he doesn't give me a hard time about that.

Also while Benzo wd is certainly dangerous and you shouldn't taper without medical supervision personally i found Gabapentin and Lyrica withdrawal to be much more painful then Benzo withdrawal.
 
Iv been on more antipsychs then id ever care to remember (which is almost a pun cos I'm an amnesiac) but iv had very little benefit from any of them they all have a horrific amount of side effects even the atypical ones that are meant to have less side effects and to emphasize the lack of improvement with the side effect profile of atypicals one of the best antipsychs iv ever been on with the least unwanted effects was liquid promazine which I was stuck on during a compulsory Holliday to a secure wing of a "hospital" courtesy of the mental health act 1983 but yer anyway despite it being the drug they were all on in one flew over the cuckoo's nest and it having it's own type of walk named after it the promazine shuffle it is either one of the oldest antipsychs or the oldest can't remember which but in my eyes one of the best but to answer the question it very much depends on the person but benzos have a very dangerous withdrawal that can be potentially fatal in some cases but antipschs are very unlikely to cause a withdrawal anywhere near as dangerous as benzos but their side effects can be as most antipsychs can cause seizures as a side effect and if like me you are epileptic they lower your seizure threshold and numerous antipsychs iv Been on have caused multiple siezures and olanzapine caused me to have a status epilepticus siezure which nearly killed me how ever benzo withdrawal also caused siezures wether you are epileptic or not and that's partly why they can't kick me off my oxazepam script but I got put on that many years ago when it was alot easier to score a long-term benzo script but these days in the uk anyway it is near on impossible to be put on a long term benzo script but In all honesty you don't want one benzos are great for the short term but how ever they help you at what ever dose it won't do it for long your tolerance builds fast the benefits disappear and the physical habit just takes over and you end up much worse off then if you never took them eventually and the dosage just ends up too high the Dr will stop increasing it and youl just be stuck on a med u take just to stop withdrawal if you want it to help you take low doses for a couple of weeks when you really need it then stop before it's too late then youl still be able to benefit from them when u need them but no! Benzos are defiantly not safer then antipsychs especially if you drop a load of diazepam don't get alot off it have a drink to top it up still don't get what you want and end up going over with a pill too many or get a little bit to pissed or do what I did when I was a bit sick of life and took 60mg of diazepam half a bottle of vodka then thought I'd finish the job with a half grm of no.3 in a hit and even with my tolerance that knocked me flat but annoyingly my m8 found me &did cpr till an ambulance got there and give me a massive unwanted hit of nalexone which brought me back from death and into the worst rattle (heroin withdrawl) id ever known (the bastards) try sented candles
 
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I spoke to my Dr today who I got my usual 60 Vals and 30mg temazepam. I recently read a study where it stated anti-psychotics. reduce brain matter. He said he knew that and that's why he never tried to push them or ssri's or any bullshit. I told him my med history, he took my word for it and I'm slowly getting off of them. But yea, fuck anti-psychotics.

Then again, I just have insomnia and anxiety. But the whole shrinking of your brain is fucked.
 
Antipsychotics are not appropriate for most people however, a subset of the can benefit from them when carefully monitored. I think we need to be careful generalizing our experience with generalizations. Ive seen people who where unable to have a conversation with you because of voices in their head, or in the corner talking to voices, or totally hallucinating objects not there, or violent harming themselves and others.
 
This is not an easy question to answer; and, like most difficult questions, and most arguments, the trouble lies in defining a word, the word in this case being "safe." Neuroleptics (antipsychotics) do indeed have quite dramatic and unpleasant side-effect profiles. Many of these do get better after being on the meds for a decent length of time, and, while one can make broad generalizations, e.g. "2nd generation antipsychotics" are less likely to cause tardive dyskenesia, movement disorders, stiffness, etc. and are less likely to need something like Benadryl or Cogentin to deal with these side effects, however, 2GAs tend to have worse long-term side effect profiles, most notoriously Zyprexa (olanzapine/OLZ) and it's metabolic effects like weight gain (which is an issue with most neuroleptics, and most psych meds in general, actually, which works in at least three ways; first, they affect energy level, as does the underlying mental illness, and people often will wind up getting less exercise, and I don't mean working out, even just walking around; second, they often increase appetite; and third, they alter metabolism; this is a significant issue also with valproate/Depakote, various other drugs; carbamazepine/Tegretol is one of the only psych meds that actually tends to decrease weight) and diabetes (for which OLZ is particularly notorious and is a safety major issue in terms of long-term health.)

However, in terms of "safety," from another angle, most antipsychotics in acute overdose are not especially dangerous (Thorazine/chlorpromazine/CPZ is a bit of an exception as it can drop blood pressure, which other neuroleptics also can, but it is still fairly safe.) This is also true of benzodiazepines. Overdosage will usually mean just being very, very sedated perhaps for quite a long period of time. This is when these drugs are taken alone; combining with alcohol, opiates, neuroleptics+benzos, etc. can be significantly more dangerous in acute overdosage; but, as far as the drugs alone, there's a slightly-exaggerated aphorism in psychiatry, "the easiest way to die from them is to choke on them." Haldol/haloperidol, for instance, in the U.S. is usually given in a total of no more than 40mg/day, but in some places in Europe it is not uncommon to go up to 100mg/day. Obviously, side effects will worsen, the person will probably have to be placed on something to ameliorate the side effects and might take longer to adjust, but they adjust. Life on psych meds will include dealing with side effects but it gets much, much better than in the first few days or weeks.

Severe side effects like constriction of the airway, etc. and less life-threatening but distressing symptoms like oculogyric crisis (eyes rolling upwards, etc) are rare (on the order of the rarity of drug allergies, and they usually will wind up being listed as one of the patient's "allergies" even though in the technical sense of the term they are not allergic reactions.) And they almost always occur in the first few days or so of treatment which is hopefully in-hospital. Other non-life-threatening but obnoxious and distressing symptoms like excessive drooling, mild stiffness of the muscles or tremor, etc. often can be dealt with by adding on some medications like Cogentin/benztropine or Benadryl/diphenhydramine or Rubinol/glycopyrollate or a few other alternatives.

Once balanced out, one can live a normal and productive life on antipsychotics but this is not to say that the side effect burden will disappear.

This leads us to the next question of safety.

Is the cure worse than the disease?

Why do you find yourself so frequently in the hospital? Psychosis? (Is it drug-induced or -related?) Suicide? Violence or self-harm? Something else?) To be in the hospital again and again is a clear indicator that something is wrong. Presumably you're put on antipsychotics because you had some sort of psychotic experience or symptoms. Antipsychotics are meant to counteract that, and they do in most cases, although finding the one that works, and has the best balance of therapeutic effects to side effects, is an exercise between patient and provider that can take some time and trials of more than one drug. Some people on antipsychotics stll, e.g., hear voies, but the antipsychotics help them not to act on them or to realize they aren't real or to diminish them, etc. They aren't a cure-all but they do help, and in the case of psychosis which is either (a) dangerous (violence/suicide) or (b) distressing internally, as psychosis usually is, or (c) much like (b), making one unable to live a happy life.

(Most of what I'm saying here would apply just the same to mental illnesses other than psychosis.)

So, it's a cost-benefit analysis about the meds. Being in and out of mental hospitals, though, is too much of a cost. Some kind of treatment is needed. Neuroleptics are, apparently, the treatment that you were prescribed presumably because you were psychotic. This is necessary, people can't walk around being psychotic and be happy, productive members of society in the vast majority of cases.

Which brings us to benzos. Benzos are not treatment for psychosis. Benzos will make you feel better. They will decrease your distress, anxiety, etc.; this is what they are supposed to do. They do not, however, treat psychosis as such, although there have been studies in Europe of giving people huge (and I mean huge) doses of Valium, and then the patient will sleep for days, and then treatment is continued and psychosis is improved, but this is fringe stuff, not typical medical practice and NOT SAFE WHATSOEVER especially if you are getting your meds not from a doctor because the withdrawal from huge doses like that is awful.

Withdrawal from neuroleptics and antipsychotics is awful, too, and underrated and ill-understood. Withdrawal from benzos is better known and more obvious.

The thing is, benzos have diminishing returns. The relief you feel from taking benzos will evetually disappear if you take them every day. They will still help to a degree with anxiety, etc. but will do nothing for psychosis. The official standard medical practice is that benzos should only be used for short term anxiety, but many if not most psychiatrists use them for much longer. There is resistance out there to prescribing benzos particularly for people who are known to have substance abuse problems which is a shame because they can be helpful, but also, benzos are not a cure all, they are a crutch, and they are extremely, insidiously addictive, to the point where going on them sometimes is nearly a lifetime decision without long term nightmarish withdrawals and post-acute anxiety issues.

Oftentimes, both are needed, and the benzo will cut down on some of the unpleasant side effects of the neuroleptic, but also of course will add to the sedation, but you'll get used to that. Also, it's important to be in therapy, cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) in particular while it won't diminish psychosis is helpful for anxiety and for getting one's life together in general; it's impportant to have supportive people around you; and it's important to examine your use of recreational drugs: is that what is landing you in the hospital? Does it help or hurt? Usually, in the long term, it hurts. Some drugs will give the feelng of relief from neuroleptic side effects, like cocaine and marijuana (cocaine actually being similar in structure to Cogentin, which is a med prescribed for side effects but which obviously has no cocaine-like effects) but they both will make psychosis worse: cocaine in the short term, marijuana in the long term and in a more insidious manner.

The most important thing is, what is right for you? What are your problems? Why do you keep going to the hospital? How can you avoid it? What drugs will help, and what drugs will make things worse? (Here I mean medications as well as recreational drugs.) The only way to find out is really by experimentation and trying different things out, psychiatry is not an exact science, eventually, some combination will be helpful, but you may have to go through trying a number of things and also you have to give them time to work and for your body and mind to get accustomed to them, which will remove a lot of the mental fog and so forth. You need a good psychiatrist/provider to work with, which can be hard to find, but will be worth his (or her, there are many wonderful female psychiatrists in particular) weight in gold. You need to establish a relationship with them, and then with that comes trust and a back-and-forth dialogue about what's needed and what helps. Benzos may come into the equation.

But DO NOT start using benzos obtained otherwise than from a doctor on a regular basis, particularly the novelties floating around the Internet (besides being unknown, people tend to wind up on obscene doses and then have their supply cut off and then wind up in an ER with doctors who don't know what the fuck the patient is talking about, big fucking mess there), but even the Xanax or Klonipin or whatever you might easily be able to get on the local black market. Your supply won't be regular and there's nothing worse than, for any of these drugs, neuroleptics, benzos, antidepressants, all of them, than inconsistent on/off dosing.

TL;DR. All drugs have pro's and con's. These include how they make you feel, and behave, and whether there's a risk of someone, most often yourself, getting hurt. Clearly you are in a place where help is needed (multiple hospital visits.) Find help. Establish a relationship. Find what works. Stick with it.

This post or any of my communications do not constitute professional advice nor do they establish a professional relationship of any kind; I make no claim to any specific professional credentials; in person consultation is essential for any medical, psychological, substance-related or harm reduction decisions. While peer support an advice can be helpful, any content posted online, regardless of it's source, cannot, by it's very nature, substitute for an in-person relationship with a clinician who has had the opportunity to take your history in the larger context and provide professional advice with all these factors, and others, taken into account.
 
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