Is flouro-phenibut probably as safe as normal phenibut?

[Solipsis]

well people have been saying that baclofen is just a more sedating version of phenibut without the dopamine push. Seems you are against all drugs; are you a reformed t-totaller or what. I've had several years of abstinence and I was probably worse off mentally when I had no release from the humdrum kafkaesque (learned what that meant yesterday so wanted to drop it in ) existence and I choose to take careful therapeutic doses of drugs if I think they will help me. I don't see the problem there. Kratom has been great and I am not out on the street pan handling. I was actually wondering if, since flourphenibut is verging more on the baclofen side, it wouldn't be a better choice to just take baclofen since it is pretty easily available and is alot better studied.

Although the low overdose threshold is concerning.

I want something that isn't too addictive for anxiolystic and hypnotic effects (if I take low doses of speed again). No not for every day use but just to use as needed or once a week or so as phenibut is used. I don't want to try phenibut due to the extreme withdrawal curve. Flourophenibut seemed more acceptable to me but maybe baclofen is better again since it seems very similar structurally to phenibut and doesnt last long and has lower dependency issues?

I haven't seen outrageous report of baclofen either which is why I'm confused by your statements. Most people use baclofen to get off other drugs and taper easily off it so I don't see why you're bashing it. I never tried it but the wealth of reports I've read contradict your negative attitude towards it.

and no1 dare mention antihistamines to me. Find those things disgusting and only induce a state of delirium.

Are you kidding?

I warn about novel compounds and that makes me some abstinent / straight-edge lunatic?

I use plenty of drugs and in the past I've tried unusual numbers of research chemicals. I still get various kinds of high but my appetite for RC's has dwindled. I get pregabalin, a gabapentinoid like phenibut, prescribed and would use the phenibut I have if I could find it since I moved homes multiple times.

So: this has nothing to do with what I think of drug use in general. It couldn't unless I were a total hypocrite for reasons completely unclear.

I repeat that your statement about baclofen being a more sedating version of phenibut without the dopaminergic push/rush is unsound. Baclofen and phenibut have mechanisms of action that are barely in the same class (well the significant portion of it). F-phenibut is thought to be more baclofen-like technically [This was already explained a few times.], and dopamine is not directly involved, that it feels that way is irrelevant: you cannot judge how a drug works because of how it feels. Countless people are mistaken about many drugs such as GHB.

Thousands of people can say this ^^ for all I care, but you really need to come up with evidence for it to actually be sound.

You are confused about my statements because you are missing the point that when using RC's you don't necessarily expect a lot of outrageous reports to come in quickly but that doesn't prove compounds are safe. No offense but I would also expect you to see hangovers as a clear indication of toxicity of a drug, which is also only true some of the time. Some neurotoxicity may go relatively unnoticed, especially at first, while some hangover may involve symptoms that are entirely reversible.

More than half of such mistakes I talk about I used to make myself, some of them recently. Others mistakes I don't know about I am still making.

Just don't assume too much is the lesson.

It's not a negative attitude against F-phenibut but against presuming a false sense of safety. I've considered F-phenibut skeptically, not negatively. There is a difference. I don't pretend to know an extreme lot about F-phenibut, but you need to apply more comprehensive reading to what is said.

 

[deruyityn]

No I do agree with you and I am not disputing you can't feel long term toxicity; sekio had alot to say about it in replies regarding genotoxicity a while ago on another substance I was investigating. I was just feeling a bit frisky so thought I would be a bit controversial in my accusations.

It shows I agree with you because in my last post I was asking why not take baclofen since it is a safer and more well studied version of flouro-phenibut.

It doesn't matter about what mechanisms it hits. If it is therapeutic it isn't of great importance to me. I mean in regards to baclofen and/or phenibut which we already know quite a bit about ie which we have a good idea how they work; the details being insignificant at that point.

You say that people are wrong about the mechanisms and that may be so but they know when something feels like something else and alot of people say baclofen feels alot like phenibut which is why I was asking if baclofen would be a wiser choice out of the 3 in question since I don't want to touch phenibut due to its rapid addiction properties.

Are you kidding?

I warn about novel compounds and that makes me some abstinent / straight-edge lunatic?

I use plenty of drugs and in the past I've tried unusual numbers of research chemicals. I still get various kinds of high but my appetite for RC's has dwindled. I get pregabalin, a gabapentinoid like phenibut, prescribed and would use the phenibut I have if I could find it since I moved homes multiple times.

So: this has nothing to do with what I think of drug use in general. It couldn't unless I were a total hypocrite for reasons completely unclear.

I repeat that your statement about baclofen being a more sedating version of phenibut without the dopaminergic push/rush is unsound. Baclofen and phenibut have mechanisms of action that are barely in the same class (well the significant portion of it). F-phenibut is thought to be more baclofen-like technically [This was already explained a few times.], and dopamine is not directly involved, that it feels that way is irrelevant: you cannot judge how a drug works because of how it feels. Countless people are mistaken about many drugs such as GHB.

Thousands of people can say this ^^ for all I care, but you really need to come up with evidence for it to actually be sound.

You are confused about my statements because you are missing the point that when using RC's you don't necessarily expect a lot of outrageous reports to come in quickly but that doesn't prove compounds are safe. No offense but I would also expect you to see hangovers as a clear indication of toxicity of a drug, which is also only true some of the time. Some neurotoxicity may go relatively unnoticed, especially at first, while some hangover may involve symptoms that are entirely reversible.

More than half of such mistakes I talk about I used to make myself, some of them recently. Others mistakes I don't know about I am still making.

Just don't assume too much is the lesson.

It's not a negative attitude against F-phenibut but against presuming a false sense of safety. I've considered F-phenibut skeptically, not negatively. There is a difference. I don't pretend to know an extreme lot about F-phenibut, but you need to apply more comprehensive reading to what is said.

 

[Solipsis]

You always weigh the pro's and cons when going on a pharmaceutical. Sure, the fact that it's been through extensive trialing with a registered pharm is nice to have a good idea about what side-effects etc to expect at what odds, but that doesn't mean it is a good idea to just take any old medication that sounds fine.

If you ask me, going on something baclofen-like without medical supervision is a bad idea. Phenibut is no good to take on a daily basis either and yeah it has made me uncomfortable when I stopped taking phenibut after taking it not daily but still too frequently for too long a while, but could manage. I don't make a habit out of recommending drugs or pharms anyway but as far as I can tell there is hardly anything gabapentinoid / VDCC blocker or GABAergic-like that would be a fine idea to take daily or virtually daily, without medical supervision that makes sure you get off it again in time.

Depending on how heavy the effects are that your body comes to rely on and how long the drug takes to clear your body, withdrawal syndromes of sedatives / anxiolytics usually do range from uncomfortable to disastrous (I have experience with that). I guess theanine which does not act that similar to most other ones, has been the most benign to me of all but even that one I have never taken daily for long stretches - not because I am wary of theanine, it just never happened.

But I advise against choosing something as a daily anxiolytic. If you take such a drug very sparingly and your selection of a drug is well-motivated, normally you can get away with occasional use. I offer no solution to severe persistent anxiety unfortunately...
In my experience it varies per anxiolytic how mild vs heavy/effective it is, and the heavier effective ones like benzos - while I nearly never took them recreationally - have a much higher liability to get hooked on. With something like phenibut I found it easier to just keep my use limited as soon as I discovered that it's not safe to keep taking semi-daily.

So if you would use an anxiolytic in a controlled and well-reserved way even benzo's or Z-drugs can be self-administered but those are enticing too take too often, with phenibut use should also be limited and cycled but like pregabalin or gabapentin I don't find it quite as serious. But the whole point is that I would be very careful about having hopes of F-phenibut being an unusually wise choice like you are asking about. There is nothing to indicate it is, you shouldn't expect it to be a unicorn anxiolytic.

Besides, if baclofen-like, the most potential might be for alcoholics etc... but I'd be mighty surprised if baclofen is something ideal for an anxiety indication... it does not seem like it was ever developed to be?

 

[Mycophile]

Solipsis: I've only skimmed this thread and read some of the things you said, but I just have a couple of questions:

Now I used Phenibut one to two times a week MAX, and have never and will never exceed twice a week or 8,000mgs a week, while 4,000mgs per week is already the recommended dosage on the tub, but SO FAR I have never found any seriously negative side effects from keeping my usage to no more than 4,000mgs in a day and no more than 8,000mgs in a week.

I've never even really gotten any serious, or for that matter ALMOST any rebound anxiety at all from it, let alone any craving for more whatsoever.

However, I am WELL aware of how dangerous addiction to it is, and have read about the HORRIBLE WD effects, so that just lets me know that I am using it responsibly enough to avoid the negative effects (so long as it isn't doing anything bad to me I CAN'T feel...lets hope not...) so anyways, I'm just going to keep usage at the same rate and expect that as long as I don't do more I should be ok.


So my only questions are:

1) I never took Baclofen before, but exactly why is it that you seem to think Baclofen is so much more dangerous than Phenibut??

I've heard that Baclofen is used to ween people off of Phenibut addictions so wouldn't the presuppose that Baclofen is the weaker of the two?


2) Why exactly do you seem to think that it sounds like F-Phenibut is probably SO much worse for one than regular Phenibut HCL/FFA??


From what I read, it just sounds like a stronger version of Phenibut.

Now keep in mind in your explanation, I can't understand technical explanations of pharmacology or neuroscience or chemistry, so please try to keep it the layman's version lol.

It's just that when I just read about F-Phenibut I also thought "well, I've been able to use regular Phenibut responsibly so if they are similar and I use F-Phenibut in a similar dosing pattern I should probably also be ok.

I'm not so sure why that logic ISN'T sound, except of course for the whole "F-Phenibut is MUCH stronger than regular Phenibut part".

That part would make me more wary.

And of course the fact that two drugs are SIMILAR doesn't mean they are the same and that one could have side effects the other doesn't have.

But for the aforementioned reasons, I don't think I'd be very worried about anything horrible happening to me if I tried a low dose of F-Phenibut once or twice.

 

[Solipsis]

From what I read, it just sounds like a stronger version of Phenibut.

It could be, but we don't know yet. It's apparently expected to be rather like baclofen and not phenibut. Again, baclofen and phenibut do not really seem to act in the same way really... that they both relax you should not make you consider it simplified as basically all more or less the same (phenibut, baclofen and F-phenibut) but with different potencies.

The point was not that baclofen is a dangerous substances, period... but that it is a very bad idea to disregard that baclofen and phenibut may basically be better considered in different categories if we can go on the implications of the pharmacological data.

So keeping that strongly in mind that baclofen is likely not really in the same ballpark but just neighboring ones with slight overlap that may not really matter because of dosage differences, it makes the presuppositions you mention in your post quite problematic because you are focusing on similarities while the differences like muscle relaxation and much bigger problems when combining with some other drugs could lead to dangerous situations.

That baclofen is used for phenibut withdrawal may have to do with the fact that it does weakly act like phenibut, but that is disregarding that it primarily acts in a whole other unrelated way: the GABA_B agonism.

I don't think we should assume baclofen and by association F-phenibut are hugely dangerous, but I think it is not a good idea to use them for doing one thing we think is useful and forgetting that it mostly does another thing on the side. It may be quite useful indeed for coming off certain other drugs and use it for a limited time under medical supervision... but to assume it is appropriate to just self-medicate as an anxiolytic based on similarities to phenibut that are not really the main way it acts [action on the muscles, related to convulsions etc] just seems quite reckless.

 

[deruyityn]

I did some more reading up on baclofen, such that it has definitely turned me off from wanting to try it. F-phenibut doesn't seem the same at all really in terms of effects. That is a very good thing though from what I've read of baclofen since it seems such a shitty substance and prone to causing dysphoria for many people. F-phenibut seems to have maintained the pleasurable effects of phenibut while taking the lesser dependence profile of baclofen.

but to assume it is appropriate to just self-medicate as an anxiolytic based on similarities to phenibut that are not really the main way it acts [action on the muscles, related to convulsions etc] just seems quite reckless.

 

[Mycophile]

It could be, but we don't know yet. It's apparently expected to be rather like baclofen and not phenibut. Again, baclofen and phenibut do not really seem to act in the same way really... that they both relax you should not make you consider it simplified as basically all more or less the same (phenibut, baclofen and F-phenibut) but with different potencies.

The point was not that baclofen is a dangerous substances, period... but that it is a very bad idea to disregard that baclofen and phenibut may basically be better considered in different categories if we can go on the implications of the pharmacological data.

So keeping that strongly in mind that baclofen is likely not really in the same ballpark but just neighboring ones with slight overlap that may not really matter because of dosage differences, it makes the presuppositions you mention in your post quite problematic because you are focusing on similarities while the differences like muscle relaxation and much bigger problems when combining with some other drugs could lead to dangerous situations.

That baclofen is used for phenibut withdrawal may have to do with the fact that it does weakly act like phenibut, but that is disregarding that it primarily acts in a whole other unrelated way: the GABA_B agonism.

I don't think we should assume baclofen and by association F-phenibut are hugely dangerous, but I think it is not a good idea to use them for doing one thing we think is useful and forgetting that it mostly does another thing on the side. It may be quite useful indeed for coming off certain other drugs and use it for a limited time under medical supervision... but to assume it is appropriate to just self-medicate as an anxiolytic based on similarities to phenibut that are not really the main way it acts [action on the muscles, related to convulsions etc] just seems quite reckless.

Ok, but why do you think it is so much more reckless to use F-Phenibut than to use regular Phenibut??

Just basically because we know more about how Phenibut works than we do F-Phenibut?

If so then I get your point.

As to the bolded I'm confused though because isn't regular Phenibut a GABA-B drug?

So then why did you say that baclofen acts in an "unrelated way"?

Aren't both of them GABA-B drugs?

Regardless, while I can see what you are saying, I'm not sure why it would necessarily be an extremely reckless and dangerous thing for someone to buy some F-Phenibut and try a SMALL amount and just see how they respond.

I would tend to guess that most people would be ok with sporadic usage of something like that, even though it is of course just a guess.

 

[Solipsis]

Well yes, regular phenibut does technically act a little on GABA_B but was more importantly found to be a pretty significant VDCC blocker.. so much so that I don't think it's known if the GABAergic effect matters that much at relevant dosages. So yeah it came as quite a surprise but phenibut may very well (read: likely) act much more similar to pregabaline [lyrica] and gabapentin [neurontin] for example, which would mean that phenibut using people are not familiar with real GABA_B agonistic drugs like they thought they were. And that's exactly my point: there is a very real possibility that this gets overlooked and this is not about the known serious dangers...
It is about the dangers of not really being as familiar as we might think we are, and consequences that aren't that easy to predict because no baclofen is not abused or anything, but like I said: we cannot very well translate it's efficacy as a medication for the particular things baclofen is used for, and normally only for a certain period or in people with a certain indication.

Phenibut may appear to be a rather benign drug especially when not used that frequently, as are drugs like pregabalin, so on the pure basis of having a good track record you can relativate the risks of phenibut being discovered as a VDCC blocker (pregabaline-like)... but it is still tricky if people don't realize that baclofen is different because it would suggest that more people might get themselves into something they didn't understand or expect, making these same incorrect assumptions.

Sure it may turn out that using baclofen or F-phenibut casually without supervision like phenibut as a 'supplement' turns out to be rather benign and these aren't the kind of drugs super likely to fuck with your vitals so it could be worse... but even if this is expected to be more subtle I tried to make that point on principle.

However

All of this may be much less of an issue, if one at all, if the 5-fold preferential affinity of R-phenibut for α₂δ does not translate to actual significant difference in efficacy. A study by Zvejniece et al that did this pharmacological screening still opens with the statement that phenibut derives its pharmacological activity from the GABA_B agonism of R-phenibut, but I actually don't know if that is rather meant as a background that this has always been our understanding, or if they actually have a good reason to conclude this.

It would be of great help if an NSP pro would know...

(Though, baclofen being a muscle relaxant and phenibut being a mood stabilizer a la pregabalin kind of suggest different modes of action but that is not really proper evidence. Also there is the option that both mechanisms of action are relevant for phenibut, the GABAergic action particularly significant in overdoses.)

 

[Mycophile]

This question doesn't have to do with F-Phenibut, but I've combined REGULAR Phenibut HCL with Kratom UEI Extracts once or twice with pleasant effects and without serious negative ones (and I've combined Phenibut HCL with Plain leaf power Kratom more times than I can count) but I was just wondering whether or not you think that Phenibut + UEI Kratom Extract is probably a dangerous or relatively saf-er drug combo, particularly in terms of CNS depression??

I'm probably going to do it again later next week and I'm not particularly concerned because as mentioned I've done it before.

I also once last year drank a whole bottle of red wine while on UEI Kratom extract with no negative effects either...so if their WAS thought to be a very strong CNS depressant in Kratom extract my body didn't recognize it there either...even though that is still pure anecdote and I have a MASSIVE tolerance to alcohol.

I mean with REGULAR Kratom i FULLY do not believe it really has strong...if ANY...CNS depressant activity because I've only heard of like one person ever dying from plain leaf Kratom mixed with other drugs and feel fine on it.

However, I do believe the extracts are stronger and closer to classic opiates, and I'd NEVER ever drink on a TRUE opiate like Oxycodone, Hydrocodone, etc.

But I was just wondering what you thought about the possible dangers or safety of the combo of Kratom UEI extract and regular Phenibut HCL.

 

[Solipsis]

I don't know, if phenibut is mostly comparable with something like pregabaline then as long as you keep an eye on the dosage it should be ok as many people appreciate kratom with pregabaline (I do). But any baclofen-like effects (that as I argued may be limited with phenibut) could potentially cause issues if your doses are not okay. So seems sort of ok but be careful, don't just go right ahead with reckless abandon because I am saying this.

About F-phenibut and the analogy with baclofen, please read this baclofen thread and tell me if this sounds alright to you.

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/501228-Baclofen-(Lioresal)-Miracle-Drug-or-Crap