Kratom Is drinking kratom everyday really a problem?

[Dropperneck]

Yeah I recommend quitting. The 5 years I had clean from opiates was the best 5 years of my adult life. 2014-2019... those were the days. Still can't believe I relapsed after all that time.

It’s so damn easy. I’ll go weeks, and then get triggered by a location or person. So hard with these extracts in every Indian gas station too. They have stolen so much of my existence.

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah for real. In my area, kratom is sold at basically every gas station. I go to the counter, and extracts and leaf are staring at me. Since I'm on suboxone now, it's not a problem, but when I wasn't, and I was just trying to stay away from kratom, it was the worst.

 

[Dropperneck]

Yeah for real. In my area, kratom is sold at basically every gas station. I go to the counter, and extracts and leaf are staring at me. Since I'm on suboxone now, it's not a problem, but when I wasn't, and I was just trying to stay away from kratom, it was the worst.

Man Ngl Kratom would be better to be on than subs. Those things have more nasty health side effects for me, like total T death.
Here extracts are illegal, which I thought was a good law since plain leaf is legal for 21+, but the Indians don’t care and sell them behind the counter or sometimes directly in the open. Guess they have bigger fish to fry here.

 

[Xorkoth]

Not for me, after 2 decades of being on kratom for a lot of that time, kratom is the worst for me to be on. I always feel shitty when I'm addicted to it, I never actually feel good, or normal. I am always on the verge of withdrawal. And because of that, I am contantly doing stuff like buying poppy pods or buying subs or buying RC opioids, to try to sometimes actually feel good/normal. Life becomes a rollercoaster. I agree that the testosterone issue is a bigger problem with subs, but at least I am not constantlyhaving to prevent myself from scoring "real" opiates, or constantly irritated, waking up in withdrawal, and spending shit tons of money on something that doesn't even make me feel normal, let alone good.

it didn't used to be that way, but something changed. I think my brain is just burned out from drugs, honestly. I wish kratom could be like it used to be for me... back then, it was certainly better than subs are. But nowadays, I want the subs to be blocking my ability to get high on other opioids, because it prevents me from fucking up. I like that I barely even think about opiates, I just dose twice daily (divided dose, seems more stable with less chanceof waking up in slight withdrawal). I am slowly tapering to virtually nothing and I know the jump will suck regardless. But kratom just doesn't work for me, I can't maintain on it anymore. I ruined it for myself.

 

[Dropperneck]

Not for me, after 2 decades of being on kratom for a lot of that time, kratom is the worst for me to be on. I always feel shitty when I'm addicted to it, I never actually feel good, or normal. I am always on the verge of withdrawal. And because of that, I am contantly doing stuff like buying poppy pods or buying subs or buying RC opioids, to try to sometimes actually feel good/normal. Life becomes a rollercoaster. I agree that the testosterone issue is a bigger problem with subs, but at least I am not constantlyhaving to prevent myself from scoring "real" opiates, or constantly irritated, waking up in withdrawal, and spending shit tons of money on something that doesn't even make me feel normal, let alone good.

it didn't used to be that way, but something changed. I think my brain is just burned out from drugs, honestly. I wish kratom could be like it used to be for me... back then, it was certainly better than subs are. But nowadays, I want the subs to be blocking my ability to get high on other opioids, because it prevents me from fucking up. I like that I barely even think about opiates, I just dose twice daily (divided dose, seems more stable with less chanceof waking up in slight withdrawal). I am slowly tapering to virtually nothing and I know the jump will suck regardless. But kratom just doesn't work for me, I can't maintain on it anymore. I ruined it for myself.

Okay I see your logic, that does seem to be the better alternative. But obviously getting off opiods is the ideal place, and it’s incredibly hard.
So I have led a similar path as you, and the only way I have gotten to using Kratom once every few weeks was hard work. First, I did, stopping on work days, once I got past the hump of getting there, I was good. I did this, using things to help me cope. I use nootropics like caffiene/ltheanine, five hour energy, mushroom powders, 5htp, liftmode stacks, etc etc. Days off are harder, but my night time copes are like delta 8 indica, kava, kanna, a glass of woodford reserve, blue lotus, but all in moderation. One of the bigger things that has helped me stay the course has been some of the T building supplements I’m on and going to the gym, the confidence it brings helps bring a positive mind set that makes it easier to battle cravings. Everyone is different, but I do believe there is a way.

 

[ItsclearlyFake]

this plant its so weird, I did today 0.6gr early in the morning of a white strain and I had to endure an annoying headache for the whole damn day.

 

[Xorkoth]

Okay I see your logic, that does seem to be the better alternative. But obviously getting off opiods is the ideal place, and it’s incredibly hard.
So I have led a similar path as you, and the only way I have gotten to using Kratom once every few weeks was hard work. First, I did, stopping on work days, once I got past the hump of getting there, I was good. I did this, using things to help me cope. I use nootropics like caffiene/ltheanine, five hour energy, mushroom powders, 5htp, liftmode stacks, etc etc. Days off are harder, but my night time copes are like delta 8 indica, kava, kanna, a glass of woodford reserve, blue lotus, but all in moderation. One of the bigger things that has helped me stay the course has been some of the T building supplements I’m on and going to the gym, the confidence it brings helps bring a positive mind set that makes it easier to battle cravings. Everyone is different, but I do believe there is a way.

Yeah, definitely the gym is huge, when I got off for 5 years, I was going to the gym every day. I know this, but I have been having the hardest time making myself do it. Partly it's joint pain from psoriatic arthritis, but it's also low testosterone, I am almost positive. Haven't had a test yet. I'm trying to get this shit sorted this year.

 

[Dropperneck]

Yeah, definitely the gym is huge, when I got off for 5 years, I was going to the gym every day. I know this, but I have been having the hardest time making myself do it. Partly it's joint pain from psoriatic arthritis, but it's also low testosterone, I am almost positive. Haven't had a test yet. I'm trying to get this shit sorted this year.

I’ve got a fucked neck at c6, I do yoga and acupuncture to combat it. It’s hard to get going, but once ur there it’s great. Been using this stuff called T hero, all natural, definitely helps motivate me. Did you get any facial discoloration from the Kratom?

 

[Xorkoth]

No, I can't recall ever getting any facial discoloration from kratom.

I'll have to look into T Hero.

 

[ecstacylover]

Kratom dependence is very similar to "real" opiate dependence, except that there is no nausea/diarrhea, and the akathisia (ie, restless legs/body) is FAR WORSE than any other opioid.

I realize that the dosage and duration of use matters, but just in terms of general unpleasantness, how does kratom withdrawal compare to phenibut withdrawal for you?

I'd taken kratom here and there over the years, it's nice but I've never been a big enjoyer of opioids. But I've been using it daily for the past couple weeks and I've really fallen in love with it. I never realized how much it could help with social anxiety, and it's become more euphoric than it was initially. I've been taking about 7gpd and I'm trying to minimize the appetite suppression so I doubt I'll go much higher.

It's quite different than phenibut, but it helps me in similar ways, although kratom seems more level-headed and thoughtful. Plus phenibut just dumbs me down too much, gives me horrible muscle spasms at times, and the withdrawals are no fun if I use it for days on end.

 

[ItsclearlyFake]

I realize that the dosage and duration of use matters, but just in terms of general unpleasantness, how does kratom withdrawal compare to phenibut withdrawal for you?

I'd taken kratom here and there over the years, it's nice but I've never been a big enjoyer of opioids. But I've been using it daily for the past couple weeks and I've really fallen in love with it. I never realized how much it could help with social anxiety, and it's become more euphoric than it was initially. I've been taking about 7gpd and I'm trying to minimize the appetite suppression so I doubt I'll go much higher.

It's quite different than phenibut, but it helps me in similar ways, although kratom seems more level-headed and thoughtful. Plus phenibut just dumbs me down too much, gives me horrible muscle spasms at times, and the withdrawals are no fun if I use it for days on end.

IMO Definitely more safe to do kratom a daily basis than phenibut.

 

[IcyVirus]

This website here: https://kratom.org/guides/kratom-drug-class/
States that kratom is “not an opioid, but has opioid like effects.”
Some people seem to drink it everyday and then stop without having many issues at all, and some seem to get dependent like you mentioned. It’s a gray area I suppose, but regardless I will not be drinking it much at all for the time being, as my mental health has been very fragile lately, and I’m processing some recent trauma.

To me, "not an opioid but has opioid like effects" makes absolutely no sense. Definitely differences in people's definition of an opioid.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

To me, "not an opioid but has opioid like effects" makes absolutely no sense. Definitely differences in people's definition of an opioid.

Yeah. Dr. Chris McCurdy classifies it as an atypical opioid but he said he wants to create a new class for it. It has so many differences to opioids. He’s the leading researcher for kratom and advocates keeping it legal.

It even uses a different pathway to the opioid receptors than traditional opioids and that’s why it isn’t dangerous as far as respiratory depression goes.

But I mean it acts on serotonin, dopamine, and adrenergic systems as well. It’s a very unique drug.

 

[IcyVirus]

Yeah. Dr. Chris McCurdy classifies it as an atypical opioid but he said he wants to create a new class for it. It has so many differences to opioids. He’s the leading researcher for kratom and advocates keeping it legal.

It even uses a different pathway to the opioid receptors than traditional opioids and that’s why it isn’t dangerous as far as respiratory depression goes.

But I mean it acts on serotonin, dopamine, and adrenergic systems as well. It’s a very unique drug.

Its withdrawal is very brutal for me. Not very physical, but psychological. Namely restlessness. Idk how some people can come off of it and barely be restless. We really are all so unique.

I like the atypical opioid part.

Something unexpected I learned awhile back is I can take kratom and suboxone together and it is very euphoric when I can usually feel neither. Jumped from 16mg sub to kratom overnight no problem at all as well.

 

[Skorpio]

Plenty of drugs act in weird ways, but they are still part of their class. Psychadelics need a mix of both serotonin 2A second messanger pathways (beta arrestin and g protein), but they are still serotonergic.

I feel that people saying that kratom isn't an opioid is simply a silver-tongued political move, to not have it associated with drugs like fentanyl or heroin. I hope that this smokescreen can be ignored in places where drugs have less stigma such as here.

Kratom definately gives a subtle withdrawal after a few weeks of daily use. I also find it hard to not slide into daily use after a single use. Mainly a feeling of emotional instability and emptyness, which becomes quite sinister as I feel broken without the drug until about a week or two after discontinuation.

I think that opioids don't particular work for me to casually use, and since I'd rather be sober long term, I limit my usage as much as I can.

 

[Xorkoth]

Its withdrawal is very brutal for me. Not very physical, but psychological. Namely restlessness. Idk how some people can come off of it and barely be restless. We really are all so unique.

Yeah, for me, too. Kratom withdrawal from a serious habit is not the same as "real" opioid withdrawal, though it;s much more similar than it is different. I do';t get the sickness like I do with full agonist opiates, and the depression is less. But the anxiety is just as bad, and the worst part by 100 times over is the ungodly restlessness. With other opiates, I have RLS, can't stop moving my legs. With kratom, it's whole body restlessness. The arm are even worse than the legs. I cannot imagine a more hellish and uncomfortable feeling, it's horrific. For me, restlessness is the worst part even with normal opiate withdrawal, and since it's so much worse with kratom, I actually find heavy kratom withdrawal to be the most difficult and shitty of all of the opioid drug withdrawals I've gone through. Absolutely no chance of sleep the whole time, I end up writhing in bed, screaming, crying, punching my legs and arms as hard as I can over and over until they're numb (and heavily bruised), just so I don't feel that demonic restless energy and NEED to stretch and move for like 2 minutes.

Ugh, I'm getting anxious just thinking about it.

 

[AlsoTapered]

Title: Antinociception, Tolerance and Withdrawal Symptoms Induced by 7-hydroxymitragynine, an Alkaloid From the Thai Medicinal Herb Mitragyna speciosa

Series: Life Sciences 2005-nov vol. 78 iss. 1
Author(s): Kenjiro Matsumoto; Syunji Horie; Hiromitsu Takayama; Hayato Ishikawa; Norio Aimi; Dhavadee Ponglux; Toshihiko Murayama; Kazuo Watanabe

Year: 2005

Conclusion

'7-Hydroxymitragynine, the Mitragyna alkaloid, induced potent antinociceptive effects mainly through mu-opioid receptors in the tail-flick test in mice. The development of tolerance in the antinociceptive effect of 7-hydroxymitragynine, the formation of bidirectional cross-tolerance and withdrawal signs suggested similar opioid mechanisms for morphine and 7-hydroxymitragynine. However, 7-hydroxymitragynine has a different chemical structure than the morphine skeleton. 7-Hydoxymitragynine may be a seed for novel analgesics because of its unique structure and strong potency.'

My Conclusion

Kratom contains a mixture of alkaloids and so it's possible that other alkaloids possess delta and/or kappa activity which would curb someone's intake of the material due to side-effect but put simply - it's a real opioid and it produces withdrawal. In the paper they used naloxone to induce withdrawal but I think it reasonable to expect that abstinence syndrome will occur.

BTW fragments of the 7-OH mitragynine scaffold were synthetically produced as far back as the 1960s and so it's not a totally novel mu ligand.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

I think the problem with kratom starts (at least for +75% of people) when you surpass 6-8gpd... specially when you surpass 10-12gpd. Over 15gpd the withdrawals are similar to opiate withdrawal but IMO and IME the withdrawal you get with less than 8gpd it's barely opiate-ish, mainly because (my subjective experience) tells me that it barely hits opioid receptors at low doses specially if you use green-white strains.
Once you get into abusing red/golds... then you're dealing with an "intermediate" opioid withdrawal. So you did more than +25gpd for longs period of time, isn't it?
I never did that, nor I've used other opioids/ates, so maybe that's the reason.
My opinion it's that if you've never dealt with other opioids nor you get into certain higher doses, dealing with kratom withdrawal it's more like adrenergic/stimulant + low grade antidepressant + low grade opioid withdrawal.
As you go into higher doses or you are more experienced with opioids I think kratom withdrawal becomes less adrenergic/stimulant-like and becomes worse in terms of opioid withdrawal + worse antidepressant-like PAWS,
but well, this is just an opinion,

Your description sounds about the same as what I experienced. When I was on 15 gr a day there were wd symptoms.
But they are relatively mild and of short duration, a few day's if I remember correct.

What was striking about Kratom was that it somehow has a mechanism that after a while of dosing 15 g's. It no longer made me feel good or gave me energy. So this effect forced me to take breaks every now and then. Anyone else noticed this?
What also was weird is that it kept working at the same dose ( little tolerance build up? ). Untill that lethargic feel started coming up.

And to the OP daily drinking will lead to dependance. So if you stop suddenly, without a taper, you will experience wd symptom's typical for Opoid's. Since my last dental repair I have been drinking daily and I wonder if the addiction has allready began? Using 15 mg Oxycodone one month didn't cause wd's in me, no clue if Kratom follows the same timeline. Been using it for at least 1 & 1/2 week.

 

[Dropperneck]

The craziest part is how much you poop, a week out. I go from having some pudge to like a six pack abs by the time I’m clean. Must be super awful for your gut health.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

The craziest part is how much you poop, a week out. I go from having some pudge to like a six pack abs by the time I’m clean. Must be super awful for your gut health.

My stool which was unpredictable before Kratom but has since my usage stabilized to a nice rythme. Before I had anything from glue poo to too soft. Since Kratom and even while/ after wd-ing from it from time to time, sometimes years. My stool has been a schoolexample of a nice turd, no toilet paper needed. And never had obstipation from Opiod's either.

But everyone is different, I do have a fast metabolisme and eat quite healthy, vegetarian ( minus fish ) and milk free due to the milk proteins.