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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

Invasion of privacy to aid in fighting crime or drugs?

@foreigner are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? Most of what you said is how I feel.
But you say I underestimate the vast propaganda machine, but this is what I meant by my statement. Until the public perception is viewed differently we will see no change, and this starts with people but is greatly influenced by the media. I agree that alcohol is the most damaging drug in our society today, but this doesn't neccesarily mean that it is the most dangerous or damaging. The most violent people I see on the streets are those fueled by meth+alcohol. But even then I have plenty of friends who do that weekly and cause no trouble. It's the people that cause the problem but for angry and violent people I have no doubt alcohol+meth is an angry combo.

I'd love to see the government address failed social policy or to see freedoms be handed back to us. I just don't know when it will happen. Lets hope Julian Assange gets to come back to Australia, I'm more then curious to see how his political party goes. Theres no doubt the media is going to be very interested with him and he would get the amount of time to speak, Plus I believe he is more intelligent then most people in our parliment and in any debate would easily hold his own. He has some views that may be too radical for the mainstream but he could definitely stir up some issues. But if he isn't back in Australia to be the front man of his political party I can't see it getting anywhere. But with him at the helm he is someone who would fight to put the freedoms back in the hands of people.
 
apologies for the short responses...i just wanted to say respect yo...& could you perhaps do my math assignment (engineers are good at math, no?) for a carton or something? :)

This whole back and forth sounds like a typical conversation between myself and a close friend of mine. Me usually taking the perspective of laugh, and him taking the position of Students logic.

In other words, I'm almost certain you guys would probably get on if you met.
 
Have been busy and offline for a bit, just thought I'd share something I saw recently...

Drugs will probably remain illegal, the government knows soft drugs like weed are a lot safer than alcohol/cigarettes that is why they fired someone for publishing an article about true toxicity/safety issues cbf, google if u don't know. The profits margin is too large, money talks in such large amounts. The government would much rather you drink your liver to death and pay for pharmaceuticals to keep you alive...../rant

Watch this 50 minute documentary (its not Australian) but I don't see how it would be much different regardless of where you live. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wG4YKmCBE
"The third and final part of Angus Macqueen's exploration of the failure of present drugs polices takes the viewer to the frontline. Birth of a Narco-State shows how the war on drugs is actually fuelling the long-term civil war in Afghanistan, possibly creating what he calls a 'Narco-Theocracy': a toxic mixture of drugs money and religious extremism."

tl;dr tired just wanted to share this documentary for anyone interested...
 
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This whole back and forth sounds like a typical conversation between myself and a close friend of mine. Me usually taking the perspective of laugh, and him taking the position of Students logic.

In other words, I'm almost certain you guys would probably get on if you met.

Haha it's good to have some friendly conflict, and I'm certain I would get along well with most bl'ers in RL.

Have been busy and offline for a bit, just thought I'd share something I saw recently...

Drugs will probably remain illegal, the government knows soft drugs like weed are a lot safer than alcohol/cigarettes that is why they fired someone for publishing an article about true toxicity/safety issues cbf, google if u don't know. The profits margin is too large, money talks in such large amounts. The government would much rather you drink your liver to death and pay for pharmaceuticals to keep you alive...../rant

Watch this 50 minute documentary (its not Australian) but I don't see how it would be much different regardless of where you live. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wG4YKmCBE

tl;dr tired just wanted to share this documentary for anyone interested...

I'll watch this doco next week after my exams, but I do imagine it very much would be different in Australia. Our government LOSES a lot of money on cigarettes due to all the health problems that our health system pays for. Alcohol on the other hand is very arguable against party drugs.
 
people that are worried about this stuff need to think about how they conduct their communications.
encryption is the answer to a lot of these concerns - yes is it frightening to think that all our data is being recorded and stored, but rather than see it as a government control plot - think of it as a reality we've all been playing into for years already by being part of the internet.

yes, "they" have lots of information on "us". "they" being our ISPs, most email providers, social media and so fourth. the same goes for our digital financial transactions, and the majority of this stuff is owned, run and controlled by companies in the USA who are cooperative with US intelligence and other government institutions. it's no secret.
the thing is, there is SO MUCH information online, that at this stage (i assume) you'd have to be operating some pretty serious illegal operation to get the attention of whoever is watching all of these digital footprints we leave all about the place.
if you were in this 'line of business' - whatever that may be, but something outside of accepted legal practices - surely you'd know how to avoid some of the more simple methods of being monitored.
that's what encryption is all about. it is used by the financial world in their internet transactions, as well as military and other (ahem) "legitimate" institutions, so using encryption is not in itself incriminating or dodgy.

obviously we don't know what twists the political climate could take at any given time - the push for drug liberalisation could succeed, for example, then create an enormous backlash. or the militarisation of law enforcement could proceed unabated across the globe, leading to all of us who admitted to possessing pot or sharing LSD with our friends or growing opium poppies in the garden 8 years ago on a drug forum could find ourselves singled-out, targeted and who-knows what else.

i agree with the point made that drug control is not about controlling drug use, or the people from the harms of drug use.
it is about controlling people.
each drug that was banned in the 20th century in the US (and then by the rest of the world, at their urging) was directed at a group of people associated with that drug's use. be they chinese (opium), mexican (cannabis) psychedelics such as LSD, mescaline, psilocybin (the 60s counter-culture/anti-vietnam war movement/new left) - the drug bans allowed the easy prosecution and disempowerment of whole groups of people. this continues in the states with the massive amounts of african american and hispanic and other non-whites in the country's jails.
"segregation" may have been broken down in the 1960s as an official, acceptable social policy; but in practice, many of the ways ethnic groups were controlled by white america are still in place, just by a different name and a different set of rules.
this is arguably exactly the same in australia - indigenous people were legally restricted from even entering the streets of many of our cities until the late 1960s. the state actively sought to enforce language, culture and religion on these people by force, and by removing children from their parents.
we might not do that any more, but much of the bad blood remains - the distrust, the government paternalism, the massive over-representation of aboriginal people in australian prisons.

what i'm getting at here is that people can be targeted - are targeted by authorities, and in the digital age this is increasingly aided by corporate information sharing. social control is carried out by the technology of the day - whether it is sticks and clubs, guns and chains, tasers and tear gas or digital surveillance.

who is targeted is a matter of the political currents of the time. is it islamic extremists? suspected drug traffickers?
hell - last year in perth, a few days before CHOGM (commonwealth heads of government meeting) several activists of environmentalist direct action groups (namely forest rescue) were approached by federal police and handed documents stating that they were not permitted to enter the 'restricted zones' of the convention. this area covered a pretty large chunk of land - the entire perth CBD through to the western suburbs into the university of western australia if i remember correctly.
it is understood that these people were located by tracking their mobile phones, as they weren't all at home when they were 'paid a visit' by these government officers.

the point i guess i am trying to make is that it is fucked up, it is scary - it is already happening; but it is everybody's personal responsibility not to be too complacent or too naive about our online activities. ignorance - or indignation - is no excuse!

a community like bluelight makes it seem quite normal to import illegal or potentially illegal substances, and people are often quite blase in talking about this. whilst this in itself might not necessarily cause any implications for those individuals (in the sense that their identity and their self-incrimination may not be noted or linked by LE) it can certainly lead people into a sense of invulnerability that is quite dangerous.
i'm not a computer expert, nor someone with great insight into the practices of the intelligence community or the various police/military/government information analysts that track what happens online.

these are powerful people protecting the interests of powerful organisations. there is huge money in prohibition; be it in legal detection, in covert distribution (as has been known to happen to fund various shady government practices, eg the "iran contra affair" and many others), asset and money confiscation and of course the protection of the interests of pharmaceutical companies - to name but a few.

these people may not be "out to get you" (or i, or anyone in particular), but if you walk into their traps, or do something indiscreet which raises a red flag - you may well find yourself in their sights.
whether this means they watch your communications, your financial transactions, your associations, your movements - well, there is plenty of choice if you choose to take part in the wonders of modern technology.

i'm not saying i think it is ok - because i don't. but if you don't want to be monitored by CCTV everywhere you go, you might want to think about moving to a remote place. if you don't want to be potentially tracked everywhere you go, don't use a smart phone - or a mobile at all. if you don't want the authorities - or any mass-information gathering project - to know who you associate with, don't use social media like facebook. don't use email. if you don't want your intimate thoughts and curiosities being recorded indefinitely - don't use google.
if you want privacy, stay away from communications technology - there is no guarantee of privacy in any of them, whether it is corporate information gathering or government intelligence or law enforcement.

we treat these things like our god-given right as first-world western consumers, but then people seem shocked to find out that the information you share and put out there in using these tools is actually collected for a number of reasons - not just to find out politically or legally sensitive material, but also for demographic research, for advertising - for a huge range of things.
it's a compromise we make. it's not really a secret, especially if you listen to the sort of activists that are involved in the cypherpunk movement and their efforts to navigate the web in more covert ways to prevent the internet having such a potential for mass surveillance of the population leading to totalitarianism.

even on a really simple, lo-tech and local level, if you have a dealing with the police - it is very common for them to go through your mobile phone and take data from it.
all of this stuff is very uncomfortable for a lot of us - and yes even those of us who are completely law-abiding citizens.
the key, at this stage is to be aware of it.
it is not paranoid to be concerned about it, it is not a delusional thought process to believe we are all being monitored.
we are. to what extent? that's hard for us to say. we may never know.
but governments have been spying on their own citizens for as long as these sorts of institutions of power have existed. whether it is the spanish inquisition, the stasi, mossad or the CIA - governments monitor what people are up to for all kinds of reasons.
the more aware of this we are as individuals - and the more conscious we are of what we share online the "safer" from persecution we are likely to be.
there is no such thing as privacy in the digital age. it's an illusion, at best.
 
Haha it's good to have some friendly conflict, and I'm certain I would get along well with most bl'ers in RL.



I'll watch this doco next week after my exams, but I do imagine it very much would be different in Australia. Our government LOSES a lot of money on cigarettes due to all the health problems that our health system pays for. Alcohol on the other hand is very arguable against party drugs.


Its only getting worse for the smokers, think of all these new laws that are in place in the past 10-20 years, just recently: cant smoke at the zoo anymore, plain packaging (which a British tobacco company responded by releasing a brand callled "Just Smokes" costing a little over the price of illegal smokes. Meanwhile alcohol consumption is at an all time high, and a lot more affordable than a smoking habit.

Just to name a few tax increases:
25% 2010 April Cigarette tax to increase 25pc from midnight Read more: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-04-29/cigarette-tax-to-increase-25pc-from-midnight/415056 First posted Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:25am AEST

25% March 2011 ''The big concern is illicit trade,'' New York-based Mr Camilleri said. ''Since the tax increase last summer [April], illicit trade has increased by 25 per cent in Australia.'' Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/illi...obacco-boss-20110228-1bbqv.html#ixzz28ucbEXW4

25% September 2012
Falling commodity prices have prompted the government to look for more sources of income. In a move to prop up its promise of delivering a surplus in 2012/13, the Labor government has proposed to lift the tobacco excise tax by 25%. Read more http://www.fool.com.au/2012/09/investing/cigs-up-smokers-to-pay-more/

And a few other things:
2006: Graphic Health Warnings http://www.quitnow.gov.au/internet/quitnow/publishing.nsf/Content/fact-sheet-health-warnings
1997: The Federal Government removes all remaining tobacco sponsorships, including on international events.

My bro went overseas recently, did you know now you can only bring back 50 cigarettes :( "The Australian Government’s reduction in duty-free tobacco sales, announced in the budget, has been welcomed by health leaders. Under existing rules, inbound travellers aged over 18 were allowed to bring in 250 cigarettes or 250g of tobacco products tax-free – this will be cut to 50 cigarettes or 50g. "


To sum it up: Smokers are copping more shit than ever, as the government has realized this very fact that you stated (money money money), not because they are concerned about your health, if that were the case, weed would be legal (even if prescribed by doctors) because your a fool if you claim it has no medical value. (IMO pharma's & the Government would loose too much, so well just fix them with pharmies)

-edit:mad:space Couldn't agree more with toning it down when it comes to things like facebook, people seem to have this false sense of security, and can get annoying sometimes.
 
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You're a bigger fool if you think that burning any type of leafy material and inhaling it into your lungs is not unhealthy. I can almost hear the cacophony of daily bongs smokers trying to cough up an early morning lung so they can argue differently, but they are wrong.

Of course increases in taxes for smoking is all about money. The annual cost to Australia is around $30 billion, where as tobacco excise collected is a measly $5billion. (Source) And that is before you take into account things like litter and workers skivving off for 15minutes to have a smoke. That extra $25 billion dollars a year would build some pretty cool museums, libraries, sports stadiums, clean public toilets in night club districts or any manner of useful public gifts. They would even be able to hand out tax cuts so you could spend an extra $50 a week on your drug of choice. Instead that $25 billion shortfall has to go towards paying for hospitals to tend to an ever increasing line of smoking induced patients.
 
You're a bigger fool if you think that burning any type of leafy material and inhaling it into your lungs is not unhealthy. I can almost hear the cacophony of daily bongs smokers trying to cough up an early morning lung so they can argue differently, but they are wrong.

Of course increases in taxes for smoking is all about money. The annual cost to Australia is around $30 billion, where as tobacco excise collected is a measly $5billion. (Source) And that is before you take into account things like litter and workers skivving off for 15minutes to have a smoke. That extra $25 billion dollars a year would build some pretty cool museums, libraries, sports stadiums, clean public toilets in night club districts or any manner of useful public gifts. They would even be able to hand out tax cuts so you could spend an extra $50 a week on your drug of choice. Instead that $25 billion shortfall has to go towards paying for hospitals to tend to an ever increasing line of smoking induced patients.

Are you windging about taxpayers money being used to treat and prolong a dying human beings death? :?
 
No, I'm telling the people who are whinging about tobacco taxes to shut the fuck up and be grateful for what they get.
 
No, I'm telling the people who are whinging about tobacco taxes to shut the fuck up and be grateful for what they get.

Sorry, must have missed that bit... 8)

You do realize that we are livin in 2012? Back in 04/05 there were a whole lot more smokers and the tax was much, much lower

Why don't you use the latest figures as a reference?
 
Why don't you give me the new figures for these millions of fewer smokers and sudden drop off in demand for smoking related health costs?

If it's any where near the $25 billion shortfall in 2004 I might even take up smoking.
 
people in this day & age shouldn't have time to smoke they should be out their working their fingers to the bone for currency...the whole system is fake, everything revolves around plastic money...invented & made by the infallible man.

money money money...couldn't live without the stuff :?

its funny or sad that the government is only cracking down on smoking due to the apparent costs associated rather than the fact that is just plain unhealthy...pretty fucking funny in a weird way...
 
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Why don't you give me the new figures for these millions of fewer smokers and sudden drop off in demand for smoking related health costs?

If it's any where near the $25 billion shortfall in 2004 I might even take up smoking.

For starters, I didn't say there were millions less, I said there was much less. Ill explain usin this simple formula of common sense:

less smokers = less smokin related illnesses = less taxpayers money spent

Significantly higher taxes on tobacco = more money for treatin smoking related illnesses = smaller shortfall

I highly recommend you take up smoking :)
 
its funny or sad that the government is only cracking down on smoking due to the apparent costs associated rather than the fact that is just plain unhealthy...pretty fucking funny is weird way...

Economics is pretty much the only reason governments get voted in and out of office any way. It doesn't matter how well you run the country, if people feel they have no money or the waiting list at hospitals are too long it is usually fixed by politicians finding the funds from some where to fix the problem. Even environmental issues can be placated by offering to throw money at programs to clean up the mess.
 
+ 1 :)

very articulate, he would make a fine salesman!

Salesman? Shit, if you'd said "politician" I'd be flattered but ive never been much good at selling anything.

Busty, the argument that economics is the main factor in the electorates' voting choices depends how far you want to stretch "economics" as a political cover-all. Social policy, infrastructure, health and education policies all need to be paid for with our collective tax dollar, but I dont know if I would agree that it all boils down to economics.
Maybe ultimately, but i think the ideology and the overall leadership is more prominent in people's eyes than the economics of the budget.
Why was the Howard government so trounced in 2007?
I think it had as much more to do with their industrial relations policies (and their effect on people's labour rights and job security) than it did management of the economy.
Sure...you can narrow it all down to economics in the end- but people's understanding of "good economic management" in government is so simplified as to be fairly irrelevant in my opinion.
By the way, I don't think the campaign against smoking is a bad thing (for the country or individuals) but politics is a complicated thing and there are a lot of things taken into account - public perception for one.
Believe it or not, increasing taxes on cigarettes is quite popular amongst a lot of the population, because a large percentage are ok with taxes that "don't affect me".
Sad but true.
You got a light?
 
haha sorry i thought used car salesman or politician would be too offensive...particularly in our current political umm environment :)

heres an idea, any and all politicians in australian should be aboriginal or at least of aboriginal descent (it was...err is their country to begin with) ...im sure that way our country would be served in a much more respectful fashion...why is it that there is little to no aboriginal politicians yet we got fucking dickhead white power south africans all over the scene looking for a quick buck?
we could learn a hell of a lot from the way they (native australians) live their lives & cared for the earth & one another...im not aboriginal & i dont mean that to sound racist, i just think they had a pretty good thing going on here before captain cock & his scurvy crew came over raping & pillaging...40 odd thousand years they were doing pretty damn well...in our measly few hundred years we have trashed the place and we are gonna keep on trashing the place in the name of economics.

just another out there radical thought...now shoot me down people, spears or guns its all the same game :)
 
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You're a bigger fool if you think that burning any type of leafy material and inhaling it into your lungs is not unhealthy. I can almost hear the cacophony of daily bongs smokers trying to cough up an early morning lung so they can argue differently, but they are wrong. Of course increases in taxes for smoking is all about money. The annual cost to Australia is around $30 billion, where as tobacco excise collected is a measly $5billion. (Source) And that is before you take into account things like litter and workers skivving off for 15minutes to have a smoke. That extra $25 billion dollars a year would build some pretty cool museums, libraries, sports stadiums, clean public toilets in night club districts or any manner of useful public gifts. They would even be able to hand out tax cuts so you could spend an extra $50 a week on your drug of choice. Instead that $25 billion shortfall has to go towards paying for hospitals to tend to an ever increasing line of smoking induced patients.

What rock you living under, go buy a vaporizer, or cook with it, you don't need to burn carcinogens to use cannabis as a medicine.

What about the cost for policing drunken idiots, have you been clubbing lately? Then you got the cost on the healthcare system when everyone's liver starts dying from all that toxic ethanol, broken beer bottles is rubbish too ya know, cuts your feet if you walk on it, and is more prevalent than cigarette butts.

Never mind the cost of people chucking a sickie from being hungover, but god damn that guy for having a cigarette in his allocated break time, wheres your head at?
 
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haha sorry i thought used car salesman or politician would be too offensive...particularly in our current political umm environment :)

heres an idea, any and all politicians in australian should be aboriginal or at least of aboriginal descent (it was...err is their country to begin with) ...im sure that way our country would be served in a much more respectful fashion...why is it that there is little to no aboriginal politicians yet we got fucking dickhead white power south africans all over the scene looking for a quick buck?
we could learn a hell of a lot from the way they (native australians) live their lives & cared for the earth & one another...im not aboriginal & i dont mean that to sound racist, i just think they had a pretty good thing going on here before captain cock & his scurvy crew came over raping & pillaging...40 odd thousand years they were doing pretty damn well...in our measly few hundred years we have trashed the place and we are gonna keep on trashing the place in the name of economics.

just another out there radical thought...now shoot me down people, spears or guns its all the same game :)

Could I still get to keep sanitized water and flushing toilets? Actually I wouldn't mind vaccinations and a life expectancy past 45 yr if given the choice. I could probably enjoy their diet, especially the last time I was cooked turtle by the crew I was working with but I would miss my steaks :(
 
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