Miscellaneous Ibogaine treatment for opioid dependence?

[ErgotFiend]

Mescaline, toxic? You might want to do some more research... Even Iboga I would hardly consider toxic.

I thought Iboga can cause heart attacks? Do you mean there's a safe dose range? (I have no clue what i am talking about, i am just curious. do you provide treatment or have experiences on iboga?)

 

[RhythmSpring]

I'll probably get flack for this, but...

Tabernanthe iboga IS SAFE. However, there are risks of complications if...

a) you extract and isolate the molecule ibogaine from the plant
b) you stuff a bunch of rootbark down your throat without chewing
c) you mix it with another psychoactive
d) you are actively detoxing from alcohol or benzos (already dangerous activities)
e) you have certain pre-existing heart conditions
f) you are crazy and can't look after yourself

If none of the above apply, you are dealing with something that is NON-TOXIC.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

Which is why I used the term TOXIC and not TOXIN.

Mescaline Abuse: Side Effects, Risks & Treatment | Oxford

Mescaline is a powerful psychedelic drug with effects that are not fully understood yet. Learn about Mescaline's effects and dangers at Oxford.

oxfordtreatment.com

There you go.

I'm PRESUMING you know what the term 'hypertension' actually means.

BTW it isn't as if it's a secret that mescaline produces toxic side-effects, it is listed in MANY places which kind of suggests you know nothing whatsoever about the drug.

If following your logic then everything is Toxic depending on dose that is ingested.

"A toxic substance, or toxicant, is any substance that can cause harm to living organisms and their parts. In contrast, a toxin is a poisonous substance naturally-produced by living organisms."


Since anything will cause harm at a high enough dose.
So please stop playing with words since it can confuse people and some might beleive that Mescaline is actually Toxic..

For reference:



"The LD50 of mescaline has been measured in various animals: 212 mg/kg i.p. (mice), 132 mg/kg i.p. (rats), and 328 mg/kg i.p. (guinea pigs). For humans, the LD50 of mescaline has been reported to be approximately 880 mg/kg."

Lulz, i would literally need to ingest well over 50grams of pure mescaline to have a 50% of dying.
Although im sure my mind would be gravy well before ive gotten down 1/10 of the dose.

 

[ErgotFiend]

I think he meant toxic specifically as it refers to side effects, making it easier to fool a patient into believing they'd had ibogaine, therefor making a clinical trial more controlled. But ye i think mescaline, despite being safe is reasonable dosages, is more toxic than water in "reasonable doses" ( a glass ig)

 

[Larimar]

Make sure you get the ekgs before and during it can cause qt prolongation which can lead to td cardiac arrest in some people .

 

[Juicewrldfan]

Make sure you get the ekgs before and during it can cause qt prolongation which can lead to td cardiac arrest in some people .

Yeah when I was looking into it that seemed to be the only major concern I saw.

But I don’t know a lot. I’m no chemist or pharmacologist.

And my understanding is it’s like a 16 hour trip which is very effective for PTSD and I have C-PTSD so thought about it but while my psychedelic trips have been helpful for it with psilocybin I couldn’t imagine a challenging trip that lasted that long. I love a challenging trip as much as the next man but an entire waking days worth…idk…

I imagine you can learn a lot IF you can integrate it and it doesn’t destroy you.

 

[Larimar]

Qt prolongation is so scary .. it can be genetic or drug induced . i went on a doom scroll and reddit hole about it .. some drugs for depression , antibiotics and anti histamines can cause it . Also learned there is a study that says kratom could even cause it , thats what scared me because i have been having heart palpitations from kratom so i cold turkeyed from fear of it . Had to take my apple watch off cause i was constantly checking my heart rate and ekg.

 

[AlsoTapered]

I think he meant toxic specifically as it refers to side effects, making it easier to fool a patient into believing they'd had ibogaine, therefor making a clinical trial more controlled. But ye i think mescaline, despite being safe is reasonable dosages, is more toxic than water in "reasonable doses" ( a glass ig)

That was exactly the thinking. Mescaline and ibogaine appear to produce a similar set of toxic symptoms and have similar durations of action.

Nature published an article on the possible therapeutic use of mescaline for depression, PTSD and related disorders but the metabolism of mescaline in man is still not understood with multiple pathways apparently being responsible given the large number of metabolites detected. It's also important not to presume that the LD50 in one animal will even roughly translate into the LD50 in man. Between species it varies hugely It's also worth considering just what risk is acceptable. If a given dose only kills one in one hundred people, that would be entirely unacceptable for a medicine which (I presume) is why LSD and psilocin have seen far more trials. The TI of both of those drugs is much higher.

Long QT is one of those topics that journalists like to focus on because it sounds so scary.

Cardiovascular safety of psychedelic medicine: current status and future directions

Psychedelics are powerful psychoactive substances that alter perception and mood processes. Their effectiveness in the treatment of psychiatric diseases was known before their prohibition. An increasing number of recent studies, due to the indisputable ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

It's worth noting that the serotonergic anorexic medicines fenfluramine and aminorex were both shown to produce cardiotoxicity but, as in the above examples, that was only found after chronic exposure. I believe the main reason (which the paper alludes to) is that psychedelics bind to the 5HT2a receptors in the brain but no drug it totally selective and so the drugs will also bind to the 5HT2b receptors of the heart. But they also make clear that simply increasing serotonin levels also has a role.

Their doesn't appear to be any data regarding mescaline's 5HT2a:5HT2b affinity.

It's not as if mescaline is killing lots of people, but if you intend to use a particular compound as a medicine, their needs to be a significant weight of evidence.

It's more appropriate to consider the therapeutic index of a drug rather than the LD50, especially in a drug which displays widely different values between species.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

Yeah but isn’t QT prolongation really rare? Like my doctor rxd suboxone and vyvanse which both can cause that. And get were not concerned at all.

Qt prolongation is so scary .. it can be genetic or drug induced . i went on a doom scroll and reddit hole about it .. some drugs for depression , antibiotics and anti histamines can cause it . Also learned there is a study that says kratom could even cause it , thats what scared me because i have been having heart palpitations from kratom so i cold turkeyed from fear of it . Had to take my apple watch off cause i was constantly checking my heart rate and ekg.

 

[AlsoTapered]

It's only when prolongation reaches a certain amount of time that it's regarded as an immediate risk but if an EKG before and after the introduction of a new medication results in a significant increase, it is considered to pose an increased risk.