Misc I was too afraid to try baclofen and threw it away but still in mental misery...

[Deioflaje]

I am so scared to try anything really even non drugs. Doing anything out of my comfort zone I immediately start obssessing on the worse possible scenario of an activity.

I ordered some baclofen with the idea it would calm my generalised anxiety disorder and allow me to socialise again without despising the activity; only a once or twice a week thing. It came in the post but I started getting strong anxiety thinking about the reports I read online about it being even worse withdrawal then benzoes. I was already panicking that day because my kratom was held up by the parcel company and I was worrying that they had informed the police (turned out to be fine and I got it after the weekend). The compounded anxiety got too much and I flushed them all the fresh pack of tablets down the toilet without even trying it. That was £30 burned for nothing and I felt just as much like shit as before with no relief from my anxiety and depression. I was kicking myself all weekend wondering what it would have been like.

If I had have only tried half a tablet and then thrown it then it would have not been a waste so I could have gotten an idea if it could have helped but the withdrawal stories were at the fore of my mind and I was worrying even one dose would lead me hurtling to oblivion.

I am not sure what to do these days. Im in my 30s and it feels like every day I am building the walls higher and higher on a prison cell of my own creation and just watching on passively as it goes on. I tried all the other bullshit like therapy cbt meditation bla bla my mind will have none of that. Kratom has been the only thing I can say that has helped me to any degree so far so Im thinking what other drugs may help blast me out of this malaise.

Whenever I try something new I am so pessimistic I self sabotage it or get too anxious about extreme eventualities and don't do anything.

I hate the idea of taking anti depressants which are the 'first port of call' in such situations because I would hate having to take something every single day. However I take kratom 1 day on 2 days off which is my only oasis in a desert of mental misery but it isn't enough to stem the tide.

I tried all the bullshit herbals and they are not strong enough to make a dent. Conversely I get too anxious to try things that would actually have an effect.

I was thinking how in hindsight alcohol used to work as a great anxiolytic to let me try new things. When I got this crazy rumination I recall a couple of beers would nullify my overthinking but I despise alcohol so much now I don't ever want another drop.

Phenylpiracetam I tried not long ago and it was a notable antidepressant and anxiolytic. I will get some more at some point I think for my in between days but tolerance is very sharp with that.

I basically get anxiety about the smallest of things. Even signing up to the doctors. I was thinking of signing up and discussing these matters with them but I have been dragging my feet. I feel stupid talking about mental issues to a doctor and guilty when there are people in third world dying.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Have you ever heard of MBSR? Any experience with yoga/meditation/mindfulness?

Also, please share a bit about what you do enjoy in life (or have in the past). Where to your interests lay?

Definitely it is a good idea to work on finding yourself a good doctor AND therapist. It can be time consuming and difficult to find one that is both qualified and works well with your own style, so the sooner you can start working on it the better. It won't solve your problems, but it will set you up for success down the road (as opposed to doing nothing to take better care of yourself, thereby setting yourself up for failure instead).

There is also ketamine therapy, although it depends where you live. Do you have any experience with dissociatives or entheogens?

 

[zombiesarepeaceful]

I can say that I relate a lot. I want to try new things for my anxiety but then I get scared about trying new things. I'm usually fine with things I have a lot of experience with like alcohol, but I've panicked while on benzos before simply because it was something new. What sucks it that I LOVE trying new things, it's just that my anxiety feels crippling. I see a therapist off and on, and when it gets to be the worst I end up going on meds temporarily. It's rough but I'm determined to beat it. I got some phenibut for my anxiety and got too scared to try it at first, then I went to a setting where I felt safer and decided screw it I'm trying it and it wasn't bad at all. Remember that you're probably overthinking and tending to make small things seems catastrophic. Sometimes if you put yourself into a setting where you feel safer when you try a new chemical it helps a lot, that's what works for me anyway. I don't like taking something new if I'm alone, I prefer to at least be in public around strangers where I can get help if needed or with a trusted friend. Good luck man.

 

[RedXIII]

Social skills are like a muscle, they need to be used to get better or they will just get worse. I think teddy kazinski is a good example of that (unibomber). Start slow and you will notice your comfort level around people will get better. Always remember that your overactive brain is not the norm for people and they are not constantly judging you like you judge yourself (if thats your mentality) and if they are, they are most likely an asshole anyway, so the fuck should you care what someone like that thinks of you?

Ive had this same problem for quite some time and it gets better or worse depending on how much i put myself out there, benzodiazapines are not an option for me as its the last thing i want to be dependent on. Opiate use worked rather well but, you can imagine where that route ended up. So the only option is to work your brain to an advantage. Reprogram yourself, it can be a slow process but it works.

 

[Hodor]

I hate the idea of taking anti depressants which are the 'first port of call' in such situations because I would hate having to take something every single day. However I take kratom 1 day on 2 days off which is my only oasis in a desert of mental misery but it isn't enough to stem the tide.

I tried all the bullshit herbals and they are not strong enough to make a dent. Conversely I get too anxious to try things that would actually have an effect.

I was thinking how in hindsight alcohol used to work as a great anxiolytic to let me try new things. When I got this crazy rumination I recall a couple of beers would nullify my overthinking but I despise alcohol so much now I don't ever want another drop.

Phenylpiracetam I tried not long ago and it was a notable antidepressant and anxiolytic. I will get some more at some point I think for my in between days but tolerance is very sharp with that.

I basically get anxiety about the smallest of things. Even signing up to the doctors. I was thinking of signing up and discussing these matters with them but I have been dragging my feet. I feel stupid talking about mental issues to a doctor and guilty when there are people in third world dying.

Just take the antidepressants. SSRI's are non-recreational/non-addictive. If you had diabetes, you wouldn't think twice about taking insulin on a daily basis, so how is an anti-depressant different?

Kratom and Baclofen are still addictive substances (not as addictive as other opioids or benzodiazepine, but addictive nonetheless). In the end, they might actually exacerbate your problems by causing rebound anxiety on the days when you're not using them.

And antidepressants will work even better when they're used in conjunction with therapy - the medication could improve your mood to the point where you could actually take the therapeutic insights to heart, as you would no longer reflexively react to them with depressive cynicism; eventually, you might reach a point where you no longer need the meds at all.

Also, it's not like you're helping any dying person in a third world country by feeling like shit. You could, however, help them after getting treatment for your mental health issues, which could give you the energy to do charitable things.

 

[truenamebrand]

There’s no reason to be afraid of trying the baclofen. A small amount is unlikely to bring about any unwanted effects. Baclofen does give some people a noticeable mood lift. I take it on and off for back pain and do at times go up to high doses for this effect. It is not euphoria or anything, but if I dose around 80-100 mg over the course of the day, there is a subtle anxiolytic effect and overall boost in my mood.

If you respond to baclofen in that way, I wold advise utilizing that instead of antidepressants. Antidepressants may help some people, but it’s pretty clear that the negative side effects outweigh the benefits with most people. Antidepressants— especially of the SSRI variety, tend to just numb people, eliminating all emotions altogether, both good and bad. To me, that’s not the aim, and i can’t imagine it is for others.

As as I said, antidepressants may work for you, but I tend to try and steer people away if there’s other options, and treat antidepressants as kind of a last resort. If anything, go with ones that don’t typically turn one into a zombie who can’t feel empathy or any other human emotion. Wellbutrin worked for me for a little while, though it tends not to be good for people with a high anxiety level as it’s quite stimulating. Despite my dislike for antidepressants, I currently take mirtazapine, and I’d definitely recommend that over SSRIs and SNRIs, since it carries minimal side effects.

 

[Deioflaje]

Just take the antidepressants. SSRI's are non-recreational/non-addictive. If you had diabetes, you wouldn't think twice about taking insulin on a daily basis, so how is an anti-depressant different?

Kratom and Baclofen are still addictive substances (not as addictive as other opioids or benzodiazepine, but addictive nonetheless). In the end, they might actually exacerbate your problems by causing rebound anxiety on the days when you're not using them.

And antidepressants will work even better when they're used in conjunction with therapy - the medication could improve your mood to the point where you could actually take the therapeutic insights to heart, as you would no longer reflexively react to them with depressive cynicism; eventually, you might reach a point where you no longer need the meds at all.

Also, it's not like you're helping any dying person in a third world country by feeling like shit. You could, however, help them after getting treatment for your mental health issues, which could give you the energy to do charitable things.

Some sound points though I am still not a fan of the anti-depressant route and would tend more towards truenamebrand's perspective in that regard.

But you make a good point about not being able to help people or indeed do much productive when I am constantly despising people in general, which is currently the case. This is actually a good motivator because I would be alot more productive if I didn't have such thoughts plaguing my mind constantly.

I would disagree about your comments on kratom. I know that is the 'textbook' comment people give about addictive substances in general however I have taken the goodly leaf for a couple of years now on and off with large breaks in between my stints of usage and it has always provided more benefit than negatives. It's when I stop for a while that I realize how much of a useful tool it was.

There’s no reason to be afraid of trying the baclofen. A small amount is unlikely to bring about any unwanted effects. Baclofen does give some people a noticeable mood lift. I take it on and off for back pain and do at times go up to high doses for this effect. It is not euphoria or anything, but if I dose around 80-100 mg over the course of the day, there is a subtle anxiolytic effect and overall boost in my mood.

If you respond to baclofen in that way, I wold advise utilizing that instead of antidepressants. Antidepressants may help some people, but it’s pretty clear that the negative side effects outweigh the benefits with most people. Antidepressants— especially of the SSRI variety, tend to just numb people, eliminating all emotions altogether, both good and bad. To me, that’s not the aim, and i can’t imagine it is for others.

I was thinking back and I remembered the other day that I have actually taken a few gabaergics which are considered worse than baclofen and didn't get addicted and was at the time ignorant of such things or just less concerned. I bought a gram of diazepam for mdma comedowns and even then I was of a more reckless disposition and was experimenting with it not monitoring doses. I actually found it annoying it would last so long and was put off using it for that reason since it would drag on for days.

I imagine that baclofen would have even less desire mental desire to abuse it right from what I have read? and I am most versed in stimulants, speed and coke having been my favorites in the past, though I don't take them now. I really miss the social benefits of those drugs though but from reports gaba b drugs can match even those and with the added ability to get it up with the horniness and ability to sleep they sound far superior for evening/nighttime use.

But if I could keep dopamine drugs under control in the past in terms of usage then baclofen should be much easier aye?

truenamebrand how often do you take it and have you ever gotten physically dependent on it? The main fear I have is that you wouldn't realise you were getting physically addicted and then suddenly you ran out or something and the world starts crumbling around you. But as long as you never take on consecutive days that should not be an issue right? and the half life is so short that it is out your system very fast right?

I recall reading how even with xyrem prescribed for narcolepsy every night, it doesn't produce physical addiction since it is just taken once and that has only a slightly shorter half life right - 4 hours for ghb vs 6 hours for baclofen. Not that I would ever plan to take it on a regular just good to know what safety margin there is in term of physical dependency.

I think it must be easy to get it prescribed because I read once on an addiction treatment success story of how baclofen was given to a young lad to curb his weed usage. I think I would still prefer not see a doctor though since it is easily available but it is a interesting report of its apparent benign nature if they would prescribe it just for weed.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Just take the antidepressants. SSRI's are non-recreational/non-addictive. .

Not trying to be rude but SSRI's are addictive. Read about it. I have no pers exp with them though.

With kratom I have and please if you are in a bad place and can afford it and your close ones are ok with it. Until research proves otherwise, like that it causes liver problems or something. Take it.

Yes it causes you some discomforting withdrawal once in a while but who cares because anyone knows it will be very good after. I had periods of monthly long period's of long need and just had a break here and there when needed. Wow when was the last time I had some anyway, must have been years.

Don't feel to bad about your baclofen, that class, the gaba's, is mediocre, at best, And highly unforgiving when it comes to withdrawal. Later

 

[truenamebrand]

deioflaje,

I take the baclofen for weeks at a time and have never experienced even the slightest bit of discomfort upon stopping. I do, however, go extended periods of time without using it.

And as far as kratom goes, yes it is addictive. That being said, it took me a long time to become physically dependent and experience withdrawal upon stopping. I used it for close to a year, several times a week, before any real physical dependence set in. As a daily user for over a year now, I indeed deal with some very unpleasant withdrawal symptoms. But it’s the most effective antidepressant I’ve ever used, and I spend a minimal amount of money to support my habit. So I don’t really sweat it. I have no plans to stop.

 

[Ozekat]

I feel similar about Kratom to many posters here. Yes, it is habit-forming and slightly to moderately addictive but do I care? Hell no I don't care because it has proven time and time again that the good FAR outweighs the bad.

I've run out before and it sucks but it's not that terrible. Also Kratom is dirt cheap. In a sea of shitty drugs both those prescribed and not, Kratom is a soft substance with more ups than downs.

And it helped me get back to work, so how in the hell could that ever be a bad thing? Also is helps me WANT to go to work day after day and consistently motivates my desire to be a functional member of society.

 

[Hodor]

Not trying to be rude but SSRI's are addictive. Read about it. I have no pers exp with them though.

With kratom I have and please if you are in a bad place and can afford it and your close ones are ok with it. Until research proves otherwise, like that it causes liver problems or something. Take it.

SSRI's cause withdrawal symptoms upon rapid discontinuation (which could be seen as "dependence", yes), but there is no *addiction*, which would be a desire for an unregulated dose increase to chase a high. You don't see people binging on sertraline, but there's enough reports of people who had their kratom use escalate to the point where they were going through an ounce per day.

 

[Hodor]

Some sound points though I am still not a fan of the anti-depressant route and would tend more towards truenamebrand's perspective in that regard.

But you make a good point about not being able to help people or indeed do much productive when I am constantly despising people in general, which is currently the case. This is actually a good motivator because I would be alot more productive if I didn't have such thoughts plaguing my mind constantly.

I would disagree about your comments on kratom. I know that is the 'textbook' comment people give about addictive substances in general however I have taken the goodly leaf for a couple of years now on and off with large breaks in between my stints of usage and it has always provided more benefit than negatives. It's when I stop for a while that I realize how much of a useful tool it was.

You could still use kratom when you're on antidepressants... it's just that I wouldn't recommend relying solely on kratom/baclofen and eschewing antidepressants altogether.

Yes, SSRI's *may* cause blunted affect, but so does being depressed. As it stands, it sounds like your positive moods are usually being negated by a persistent sadness and hopelessness.

If it is available by prescription in your location, you could also ask your doctor for tianeptine. Tianeptine is an atypical antidepressant that lacks many of the side-effects of the serotonergic ones, and is also a very mild opioid. This is why I say *if it is available by prescription* because some people have been ordering it in bulk, and ended up getting addicted to the opioid effect, at which point it is arguably far worse than kratom. So yeah... tianeptine is great when used under a doctor's supervision, not so great when not.

I speak from experience when I say it *will* get better, but I also speak from experience when I warn people about the dangers of self-medication.

 

[Deioflaje]

deioflaje,

I take the baclofen for weeks at a time and have never experienced even the slightest bit of discomfort upon stopping. I do, however, go extended periods of time without using it.

And as far as kratom goes, yes it is addictive. That being said, it took me a long time to become physically dependent and experience withdrawal upon stopping. I used it for close to a year, several times a week, before any real physical dependence set in. As a daily user for over a year now, I indeed deal with some very unpleasant withdrawal symptoms. But it’s the most effective antidepressant I’ve ever used, and I spend a minimal amount of money to support my habit. So I don’t really sweat it. I have no plans to stop.

That is useful to hear that you find kratom more addictive than bac. since kratom has been one of the least (mentally) addictive drugs I have ever taken.

Is it usually understood to take a long time to become dependent on bac? I think I read on wiki that it takes a while like a month but also read anecdotal reports of it not taking long for some people to have issues in that regard. Anyway that is only a problem for daily use I assume and I would only plan on once or twice a week and no redosing.

I do look forward to my next dose when I am wound up but looking forward to something pleasant is not addiction. If you say bac is even less of an issue for you than kratom, then it sounds like it should be no prob since for me kratom is already a non issue.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

SSRI's cause withdrawal symptoms upon rapid discontinuation (which could be seen as "dependence", yes), but there is no *addiction*, which would be a desire for an unregulated dose increase to chase a high. You don't see people binging on sertraline, but there's enough reports of people who had their kratom use escalate to the point where they were going through an ounce per day.

So kratom is euphoric while ssri's are not. But that has got nothing to do with addiction. The state of being enslaved to a habit or practice or to something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming, as narcotics, to such an extent that its cessation causes severe trauma (from a online dictionary). And from what I read ssri's have one hell of a nasty withdrawal.

Just wanted the other readers to be aware of the withdrawal associated with that class of medical cashcows.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

That is useful to hear that you find kratom more addictive than bac. since kratom has been one of the least (mentally) addictive drugs I have ever taken.

Again keep in mind that the withdrawal from baclofen is physically probably much harder and maybe even dangerous. If it's as dangerous as other GABA ergics upon cessation I would certainly not call it less dangerous as Kratom. As the withdrawa from that is handleable and not doing to much physical harm. But I have no experience with gaba-B withdrawal and the specifics.

 

[Hodor]

So kratom is euphoric while ssri's are not. But that has got nothing to do with addiction. The state of being enslaved to a habit or practice or to something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming, as narcotics, to such an extent that its cessation causes severe trauma (from a online dictionary). And from what I read ssri's have one hell of a nasty withdrawal.

Just wanted the other readers to be aware of the withdrawal associated with that class of medical cashcows.

SSRI "withdrawal" is usually just a few days of irritability and brain zaps if you quit cold turkey. If SSRI discontinuation syndrome is unbearable for someone even with a taper, then it seems likely they are still depressed, and probably shouldn't have quit the medication in the first place.
Wikipedia defines "addictive stimuli" as being both "reinforcing" and "intrinsically rewarding". There is nothing "rewarding" about taking an SSRI.

You're essentially conflating "addiction" and "dependence".
From Wikipedia:

Substance dependence also known as drug dependence is an adaptive state that develops from repeated drug administration, and which results in withdrawal upon cessation of drug use.[1][2] A drug addiction, a distinct concept from substance dependence, is defined as compulsive, out-of-control drug use, despite negative consequences.[1][2]

A dependence may be a necessary evil. Being dependent on an antipsychotic can be preferable to suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. Being dependent on opioids is preferable to being in excruciating pain when you're suffering from cancer.
An addiction, OTOH, is pretty much always a bad thing.

 

[Mighty-oak]

I have just been looking up Baclofen on the BNF. Number one side effect is anxiety......I was hoping it may help, but with a side effect like that, I would not touch it.