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Benzos How to quantitatively estimate magnitude of interaction between benzos and opiates? Web pages just give scaremongering

lalalamort

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Joined
Oct 23, 2021
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1
Hi all,

I’ve struggled to find any answers this question by conventional means as all I get is scaremongering: How much do benzos and opiates interact? I know that they do and all the information is “Don’t do this”…but what about for low doses. Is the interaction of the type that one just combines the CNS depressing effects of both, or is there a real interaction where both together is more than twice of one on their own? Would taking like 60mg of codeine with 5mg of diazepam (Valium) be safe for someone with no tolerance? I would think so, assuming there isn’t a crazy interaction…its just hard to get quantitative estimates of the interaction as all websites just so “DON’T DO THIS’. Any suggestions for resources to find more info or personal experiences?

Cheers.
 
The interaction is just combined CNS depression AFAIK. You get more respiratory depression from say 20mg valium and 100mg codeine than just like 200mg codeine. They don't potentiate each other by increasing absorption or metabolism.

Taking benzos and opioids can be done without dying. Doctors do it, but obviously they monitor symptoms etc. And it's harder to do it safely in a recreational context.

60mg codeine and 5mg valium would likely be safe for a non-tolerant person. People generally advise against these kind of combinations because its hard to know for sure. It's kind of unpredictable and there isn't an exact science to it. 2+2 might equal 4 or it might equal 6, depending on the person.

The harm reduction advice for these things is generally to start as low as possible to gauge the effects. Like 30% of your usual dose.

I've taken depressant combinations a fair few times, often recklessly. Before I knew the risks I drank a lot on benzos and it always resulted in blackouts. With opioids and benzos/alcohol I always noticed my breathing slowing down way more than usual which kinda freaked me out so I just try and avoid that combo.
 
Part of the reason why the blanket advice is almost always "don't do this" is precisely because it's so hard to quantify or predict the extent of the synergy, imo. As @BridgeInspector pointed out, it's not really 2+2=4, it's 2+2= 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, whatever.
I've also mixed opes and benzos a fair amount of times (and carisoprodol, too; the 'holy trinity' as it's known)... the only time I've had to be revived by paramedics was when I mixed vaporized brorphine and deschloroetizolam.

There's another factor that doesn't always get sufficient attention; benzos impede rational decision making, just like alcohol, and this can lead to reckless redosing that leads to overdose. That's what happened to me; the benzo anxiolysis led to me vaping WAY more brorphine than I otherwise would have, and removed the anxiety I would have normally felt about how depressed my respiration was. Because of this, I blew-off taking naloxone; "I'll be fine, no worries!" *ODs*.

Imo, good harm-reduction practice for mixing opes and GABAergics is to avoid redosing either, and, as has been stated, reducing your doses of both. The synergy can be unpredictable, and can have a dose-response curve that differs from what you're used to using either substance alone. The alterations to the DRC are, I suspect, a contributing factor to benzo/ope ODs.

Lots of people find they mix well, but I've also found it really increases the addiction potential; that synergizes too.

In summation, it's my opinion that you gotta watch out for: respiratory depression, increased potential for psychological addiction, an altered dose-response curve, a narrower therapeutic index (the diff between an effective dose and a lethal dose), and impaired decision-making that leads to bad judgment calls. It's not just the increased respiratory depression.

Combine all those factors, and you get the reason why most sources advise against it; it requires a delicate balance, and should definitely be worked up to vs diving in headfirst. Lots of people aren't familiar enough with drugs to pull off that balancing act, and fatal opioid overdoses from non-IV RoAs often involve benzos because of people not knowing how to safely manage the combo.

Tbh I don't really think of it as scaremongering; it's incorrect to say it is always a life-threatening danger, but it would also be incorrect to say that it's nothing to worry about. Lots of non-BL users know very little about the drugs they take or the way that those drugs work, and if we think back to when we first started using, we may not have intuitively known that mixing two drugs from different classes could be more readily fatal than taking them separately.

Shit, the number of friends I've had to warn about not mixing alcohol and GHB, for example, is sort of depressing. And the number of people who intentionally or unintentionally killed themselves mixing alcohol and barbs lends credence to the idea that caution and going low 'n slow is a prerequisite to mixing potent CNS depressants.

But yeah obvi it's not the "IT WILL INVARIABLY KILL YOU" shrick some sources claim, given that some people are prescribed both opioids and benzos concurrently. But given how often non-IV ope ODs involve benzos, it defo demands caution :)
You're definitely right about the disinhibition. On some of my more reckless combos I hadn't planned ahead, it was just a case of "monkey brain feel good, give more now" so I popped whatever else was available.

And yeah combos are addictive in their own right. I don't even wanna take benzos without booze anymore and even if I set out to take the benzos alone I'll soon find myself scouring the house for cooking wine or a forgotten bottle of something.
 
Start with half of the usual dose of each, and doing not redose until the duration of action has worn off

I know people who were RXed 90mg Methadone and 3mg Klonopin per day, and I was prescribed 8mg clonazepam (Klonopin) per day and mixed it with opipids daily

However I am an experienced user with a high tolerance, an IV h/IM habit, and nearly 15 years experience

Though no, it is not the instant fatality some claim, and the danger of mixing safe doses is FAR OVERSTATED, yet it should always be approached with caution

10mg Valium amd no more than 100mg Codeine should be safe with no redoing for 8 hours; you may want to start with 80mg Codeine to be safe

Luckily Valium is very mild and has a very short duration of action, and Codeine is pretty lightweight, so I would not call this a dangerous combo unless you take a quarter gram Codeine and pop multiple Valium

Just be careful and use common sense and you shall be fine
 
I think you really hit the nail on the head with the "not wanting to do [x drug] without benzos/benzos without [x]"... it sort of makes taking that thing w/o benzos feel inferior by comparison. Like, it's hard to go back to that benzo or other drug in isolation; which is a shame. And it's not even that it necessarily feels great, or anything, it just seems to trigger a drug-seeking complex/activates the reward system to a greater extent.

I too start searching out the Juice/other drugs while benz'd, and turn into Pauley Polydrug + smash that (endorphin) subscribe button until I run out of drugs or pass the fuck out. I can't really think of an instance in which I took benzos and made better decisions than I would have had I been sober, and it also pretty much invariably leads to attempting to experiment with pushing my dosage for other drugs into new/uncharted ("maybe I can manage to make brorphine euphoric if I just keep vaping more and mo-" WHAMMY, OD*)

*spoiler alert, it didn't work

Yeah the benzo disinhibition is crazy. Like it just activates your simplest desires, which are usually just to get high, drink, and eat junk food. Idk if you're a fan of Always Sunny but I was reminded of this scene which I feel like pretty much exemplifies the type of conversation I have with my brain on benzos.

And yeah the thing about combos is that you feel like you can tweak your high to get it "just right" like "ooh this coke is nice but it's making me pretty jittery, luckily I can adjust that at will."
 
Benzos & Opioids are very doable together…safely, knowing your own tolerance, go slow and adjust dosage to optimal level.

I do this daily sometimes… Methadone 80mg daily for years in morning, after work sometimes I take an additional 12.5mg Methadone + Valium 10mg + Gabapentin 300mg + Cannabis Indica 10mg oral around 5/6pm ish to enjoy until 11pm bedtime and feel GREAT :)

large doses of both are at risk of CNS depression while sleeping …..VERY dangerous for a rookie or someone pushing the envelope too far.
 
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