How often/how many times did shulgin trip?

[al-laddin]

I tried a google search and a search on BL here and couldn't really find much of an answer. I know by reading the pihkal/tihkal 2nd halves that he bioassayed quiete a bit of materiel. But has he ever, himself self proclaimed an estimate? Im guessing he took notes for most of his bioassays so Im guessing that their could be at least a rough estimate?

I had a debate with someone who sais that he was quite reserved about his use. Now I believe that most of his use was way beyond hedonistic pleasure and actually done in the name of science and research. In other words he did it to document the effects for the world to know ! Right? So Im going to guess that several times a month was the minimum frequency and probably got less frequent as he aged. But Im going to guess he tripped ALOT more than your average Joe.

 

[Grinders Kiefers]

He developed and synthesized hundreds of psychedelics (believe it is somewhere between 200-300 that he is credited with) which he personally bioassayed at different dosages, and of course synthesized and researched many more aside from his own discoveries. It's safe to say the number of times he ingested psychedelics is well into the thousands, but it's not like all of these chemicals produce very profound effects even at high dosages, so "trip" is pretty subjective in your question.

It's obvious that he used psychedelics much more than the average person, but I've never read anywhere that he ever tried to estimate the total number throughout his life. It wouldn't have been necessarily significant to his research, and doesn't serve much of a purpose otherwise. I'm also not sure he kept a tally outside the realm of his research, but only those who were close to him would have been made aware of it, likely individuals who wouldn't discuss or publish something so personal.

 

[al-laddin]

Thank you very much for the response. It was important in regards to this debate I was having as the person I was debating with was arguing "well he didn't trip THAT MUCH, so he is not a relevant example". The subject of the debate was whether or not excessive psychedelic use break down the minds ability to differentiate reality from imagination thus inducing psychosis. The point I was making is Shulgin seemed very well grounded in reality

Further, we were discussing whether the overactivation of 5ht2x recpetors in the heart are what caused his heart valve damage. My point was that he was a psychedelic researcher/developer/chemist and that Im sure he was well aware of the hazards and probably wouldn't recommend anyone use these compounds to the degree that he himself did. Amyway frequency of his psychedelic experimentation was rather important to this conversation I was habing . Thank you for your input Grinders !

 

[psood0nym]

Thank you very much for the response. It was important in regards to this debate I was having as the person I was debating with was arguing "well he didn't trip THAT MUCH, so he is not a relevant example". The subject of the debate was whether or not excessive psychedelic use break down the minds ability to differentiate reality from imagination thus inducing psychosis. The point I was making is Shulgin seemed very well grounded in reality

Further, we were discussing whether the overactivation of 5ht2x recpetors in the heart are what caused his heart valve damage. My point was that he was a psychedelic researcher/developer/chemist and that Im sure he was well aware of the hazards and probably wouldn't recommend anyone use these compounds to the degree that he himself did. Amyway frequency of his psychedelic experimentation was rather important to this conversation I was habing . Thank you for your input Grinders !

As far as differentiating reality from imagination and psychosis is concerned with psychedelics use you'd be more persuasive showing your debate challenger Psychedelics and Mental Health: A Population Study than just using one extraordinary data point:

21,967 respondents (13.4% weighted) reported lifetime psychedelic use. There were no significant associations between lifetime use of any psychedelics, lifetime use of specific psychedelics (LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, peyote), or past year use of LSD and increased rate of any of the mental health outcomes. Rather, in several cases psychedelic use was associated with lower rate of mental health problems.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

The subject of the debate was whether or not excessive psychedelic use break down the minds ability to differentiate reality from imagination thus inducing psychosis. The point I was making is Shulgin seemed very well grounded in reality

this has much more to do with the individual and brain in question...not the drugs

 

[Grinders Kiefers]

Thank you very much for the response. It was important in regards to this debate I was having as the person I was debating with was arguing "well he didn't trip THAT MUCH, so he is not a relevant example". The subject of the debate was whether or not excessive psychedelic use break down the minds ability to differentiate reality from imagination thus inducing psychosis. The point I was making is Shulgin seemed very well grounded in reality

Further, we were discussing whether the overactivation of 5ht2x recpetors in the heart are what caused his heart valve damage. My point was that he was a psychedelic researcher/developer/chemist and that Im sure he was well aware of the hazards and probably wouldn't recommend anyone use these compounds to the degree that he himself did. Amyway frequency of his psychedelic experimentation was rather important to this conversation I was habing . Thank you for your input Grinders !

In terms of psychosis, I'd think the overall frequency at which he used psychedelics is less relevant than the way he used them. There are all sorts of variables with recreational use that wouldn't necessarily be concerns considering some of the advantages Shulgin had, i.e., ability to legally synthesize, possess and consume scheduled compounds from his own home. From what I understand, depersonalization/derealization tend to manifest after single large doses or long-term repeated use, and it's likely Shulgin experienced both of those at least once in his lifetime. However, the symptoms are very subjective and usually subside or stop altogether after discontinuing psychedelic use for a reasonable amount of time. He seemed well-grounded enough in reality for the most part, but it's difficult to say how he behaved on a daily basis. There are some parts in PIHKAL and TIHKAL where he gets unreasonably emotional at times, but it's hard to say if this was a direct impact of or was correlated with his drug use.

I'm sure he was aware of the hazards involved and even still likely put himself in harm's way for the sake of research, but there is some information we can extrapolate from the literature and other data he published that suggest at least a reasonable degree of safety and precaution regarding his use. I'm not well-read enough on overactivation of 5HT2x receptors in the heart to comment one way or another, but it's possible that could have been related or even the primary cause behind his heart valve damage. I'd still think his knowledge and background prevented him from participating in any significantly reckless drug use, even in a recreational setting.

His lack of noticeable health issues for a good portion of his life shouldn't be construed to mean that frequent psychedelic use is 100% safe or recommended. At the same time, I don't think he would be recognized as the notable figure he was if he were some drug-crazed lunatic who sought hedonistic escape masqueraded as consciousness expansion or personal insight through his admittedly substantial use of psychedelics.

 

[al-laddin]

Here you go Grinders...some info that has some medical research behind it on activation of 5ht2 receptors in the heart.

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/113/1/2.full

"Serotonin (5-HT)–related mechanisms have been explored extensively for pharmaceutical development, especially with regard to antidepressants and appetite suppressants. However, pharmacological agents acting through 5-HT-related pathways have been associated with a number of significant cardiovascular adverse effects, including pulmonary hypertension,^1,2 cardiac arrhythmias,² and cardiac valve abnormalities.^1–4 Evidence for a 5-HT valvulopathy has arisen from a variety of observations, including clinical,^3,4 animal model,⁵ and cell culture investigations"