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Health How many regular or semi-regular psych users don't have HPPD?

Do you have HPPD from regular/semi regular use of psychedelics?

  • yes

    Votes: 36 26.5%
  • no

    Votes: 100 73.5%

  • Total voters
    136
The genes that LSD affects may thus play an important role in learning and the storage of memories.

What affects in particular does LSD appear to have on these genes? Has preliminary research shown the result to be positive, negative, or neutral? Do you believe that these effects can be directly related to synaptic plasticity in the visual cortex, or were you simply citing an example of a psychedelic's ability to affect gene transcription? Any theory that linked perception, if only indirectly, to memory consolidation, would be quite a fascinating one.

And by the way, I'm fairly certain that Qnick was not being sarcastic; your research seems quite flawless. Thanks for the great information!
 
What affects in particular does LSD appear to have on these genes? Has preliminary research shown the result to be positive, negative, or neutral? Do you believe that these effects can be directly related to synaptic plasticity in the visual cortex, or were you simply citing an example of a psychedelic's ability to affect gene transcription? Any theory that linked perception, if only indirectly, to memory consolidation, would be quite a fascinating one.

And by the way, I'm fairly certain that Qnick was not being sarcastic; your research seems quite flawless. Thanks for the great information!

Shaolin's usually got some good info on the HPPD, also I'm pretty sure its generally accepted that perception plays a huge role in memory consolidation, if i'm remembering my cognitive class correctly.... As the hippocampus & amydgala play a large role in emotional memories, memory retrieval, and movement of memories from short to long term, memories tend not to move from short to long term unless they're percieved to have some emotional value, unless they're repeated very often. However even nearly constant repetition doesn't guarantee this, i.e. try and draw, from memory, the figures & text on a coin... pretty damn difficult.
 
Very interesting; you learn something new everyday. It seems that science has caught up to philosophy. Thanks for the response, AMD.
 
^ Shaolin, would LSD change your ability to process memories to a similar degree as MDMA? I read an editorial from the New Scientist a while ago about MDMA's affects on the brain and, in particular, cognitive function and memory. I think that, in terms of memory, MDMA users (or past users) scored slightly worse than the control, but I don't think it was an incredibly significant difference. Is there reason to believe that LSD would be 'worse' for your memory than MDMA?

Obviously there would be cause for concern if all LSD users turned into goldfish - has it been proven that LSD users do have a worse memory, in a practical, rather than neurological, sense?
 
^ Shaolin, would LSD change your ability to process memories to a similar degree as MDMA? I read an editorial from the New Scientist a while ago about MDMA's affects on the brain and, in particular, cognitive function and memory. I think that, in terms of memory, MDMA users (or past users) scored slightly worse than the control, but I don't think it was an incredibly significant difference. Is there reason to believe that LSD would be 'worse' for your memory than MDMA?

Obviously there would be cause for concern if all LSD users turned into goldfish - has it been proven that LSD users do have a worse memory, in a practical, rather than neurological, sense?

i dont know alot about LSD, but from what i know, its effects on mental memory thought processes is not a threat, however, the synapses that control visual memory are effected greatly.

MDMA on the other hand is shown through numerous articles to be neurotoxic. This is probably the cause of memory, emotional, and anxiety problems associated with abuse of MDMA.

But to the original question Bonsai, the genes effected can regulate whether or not the cells deem it necessary for synaptic plasticity to take place, whether you want it or not. Suppose you take a new kind of psychedelic you've never had before, and you take a average dose, or more, does'nt matter. If your brain cannot handle the agonisitic properties of a psychedelic substance, or agonism of 5-ht2 receptors via over stimulation from regular 5-ht (serotonin), FROM RESEARCH ARTICLES THEY SUGGEST, your brain will try to adapt to the environment via extending synaptic connections, making your brain easier to process the uncoupled, destabilized environment in which a psychedelic drug puts your brain at.

I strongly believe HPPD to be only a worry in genetical susceptible people.

Alot of people report lingering visuals after a trip for a day or two, or even a week or two, but it goes away. This tells me that new/reinforced excitatory pathways were formed, but for whatever reason, their genetics recognized that these new forms are useless and no longer needed, so their brain "broke" the connections, and the visuals stabilized. HPPD is just a severe case of increased excitatory synaptic connections in the visual cortex via EXPRESSED soft coding gene. Thats just my opinion but i've dont alot of reading on Chemically induced long term potentiation in the brain and this is the only scenario that makes sense to me.

I can stress my point through my personal experiences and the experiences of others with HPPD through the use of AED (antiepileptic drugs) like keppra, in which theres evidence to suggest that the chemical, keppra, slows down excitatory synaptic activity by numerous means, and a prolonged state of this (continuous chronic administration of the drug) eventually causes new areas for the drug to bind to inhibitory receptors, and the more the drug attaches to its binding spots, one of them being a protein that transports neurotransmitters from neuron to neuron, the more its inhibitory effects are seen. Some people with HPPD have taken keppra and its almost a magic bullet, in the sense that dissociation is lifted, and visuals slowly start to improve over time. This is more evidence to me that long term potentiation is the cause for a visual disorder that lasts for so long, because decreases in synaptic activity at these over-stimulated inhibitory sites over long periods of time via chronic administration of an AED, IN THEORY, should break the newly formed synaptic contacts, or decrease the volume of the excitatory dendritic synaptic connections, therefore calming the constant state of excitation, and inhibitory afferents are now once again leveled off with excitation, recreating the balanced state of equilibrium in the negative feedbackloops of the excitatory and inhibitory serotonergic system in the visual cortex.
 
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^ I've also heard of keppra being a possible 'cure' for HPPD... Is all this new information leading to a positive breakthrough in terms of a cure? Do you think it will happen within our life times? It disappoints me that there is a widespread negligence and denial on the part of governments in terms of funding scientific research into cures and preventions of disorders such as these. It saddens me that they would view something like this as unimportant because it is 'self-inflicted'.

Also, in relation to your point on visual memory: 'Various researchers have stated that as much as eighty percent of all learning takes place through the eyes with visual memory existing as a crucial aspect of learning (Farrald & Schamer, 1973).'

If LSD affects visual memory, will LSD users find it more difficult to learn new things?

Also, has this affect on visual memory been found to be true of other psychedelics, such as psilocybin?

(Lastly, I'd just like to say: thankyou so much, Shaolin. You are an invaluable source of information, particularly on this subject, and I think I speak for everyone when I say your tireless contributions to this forum are greatly appreciated. I suppose it must, at times, be trying for you to continue to be an active member here, knowing how much psychedelic drugs have negatively impacted upon your life.)
 
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I've used psychedelics for the last 2 years about, a year ago probably 2 or 3 times a week, this year less, maybe once or twice a month, and I dont have HPPD. I don't understand why, if you use psychedelics, would you have hppd?
 
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I wouldn't say that HPPD symtoms are all that bad.. last year I tripped lots and lots of time in a short time span and I deffinitely love what it left in my body to enjoy while sober. I can listen to music and watch crazy visuals with my eyes closed,,, whenever I stare at something with lots of texture it starts to morph, and colors are deffinitely more enlightened than before my acid binge...
 
^ Shaolin, would LSD change your ability to process memories to a similar degree as MDMA? I read an editorial from the New Scientist a while ago about MDMA's affects on the brain and, in particular, cognitive function and memory. I think that, in terms of memory, MDMA users (or past users) scored slightly worse than the control, but I don't think it was an incredibly significant difference. Is there reason to believe that LSD would be 'worse' for your memory than MDMA?

Obviously there would be cause for concern if all LSD users turned into goldfish - has it been proven that LSD users do have a worse memory, in a practical, rather than neurological, sense?

I read that study, but it was a bit confounded by the fact that almost all MDMA users use other drugs, such as cannabis or alcohol, with a greater frequency than they do MDMA, so more testing needs to be done. However, I'd imagine that the results from that study would probably be pretty close to the truth. Since MDMA is an amphetamine and affects DA levels in the amydgala and nucleus accumbens, it would probably have a detrimental effect on memory, as well as many other things.
 
Only have some visual static when sober and mainly in low light situations, but have had that since childhood; so no...
 
Particularly when tripping often (note, I usually take very small doses by standards of most here), I notice some lingering visuals, but they seem to recede over time. They're most noticeable for me when tired or stressed.

Tangentially related - my friends and I agreed that after we had first taken acid, weed felt different - it always slight visual changes, which i don't think it ever used to. Then again, maybe I didnt know what to look for.

I really wonder to what degree these are real after effects, and to what degree people who have been tripping often are just more aware of the normal visual phenomena that psychedelics play off of.
 
^ I've also heard of keppra being a possible 'cure' for HPPD... Is all this new information leading to a positive breakthrough in terms of a cure? Do you think it will happen within our life times? It disappoints me that there is a widespread negligence and denial on the part of governments in terms of funding scientific research into cures and preventions of disorders such as these. It saddens me that they would view something like this as unimportant because it is 'self-inflicted'.

Also, in relation to your point on visual memory: 'Various researchers have stated that as much as eighty percent of all learning takes place through the eyes with visual memory existing as a crucial aspect of learning (Farrald & Schamer, 1973).'

If LSD affects visual memory, will LSD users find it more difficult to learn new things?

Also, has this affect on visual memory been found to be true of other psychedelics, such as psilocybin?

(Lastly, I'd just like to say: thankyou so much, Shaolin. You are an invaluable source of information, particularly on this subject, and I think I speak for everyone when I say your tireless contributions to this forum are greatly appreciated. I suppose it must, at times, be trying for you to continue to be an active member here, knowing how much psychedelic drugs have negatively impacted upon your life.)

There has been no evidence found to suggest that LSD is neurotoxic to neurons given in doses used in recreational situations. However, gene expression is a whole other area of research into lasting adverse effects of drugs expressing their activation in the brain at 5-ht2a receptors. Activation of 5-ht2a receptors causes releases of glutamate, and glutamate binding substantially increased depolarization (whether a cell is becoming inhibited or excited.) When glutamate binds, it causes an influx of calcium ions into the intracellular matrix, depolarizing action potentials and if extracellular and intracellular calcium levels are abundant enough, Cascade channels down the membrane into the nucleus are activated. The nucleus of a neuron is responsible for encoding genes and modifying mRNA molecules to change the structure/function of cellular activity.

With 5-ht2a activation and increases in glutamate release and extra/intracellular calcium ions causes signaling cascades down the MAPk/ERK? pathways in neurons, and if Gene expression recognizes a possible threat, or certain changes in the way neurons are firing, it will transcript existing mRNA molecules to adapt to this new kind of activity, and through this specific mechanism comes the release of Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor, which is a neurotrophin protein. Calcium influx is responsible for modifting mRNA molecules which make up all proteins used in cellular activity, including neurotrophins, and subsequently modifying gene expression of BDNF, which could be changes in excitatory synaptic connections, or other similar changes related to handling excitation.
 
This has been such a pleasurable read since I last visited, and I extend my hearty thanks to all of you who lay down serious paragraphs of well-constructed information. Neuronal plasticity is a fascinating subject - but mysterious as all hell, too. Which is why the subject of HPPD has, for me, remained shrouded in uncertainty for so many years.

~ vaya
 
I had it mildly a year ago, went away after ~6 month break from psychedelics.
 
thought i'd bump this back up to the front since i'm sure there are some new PDers around now that didn't have the chance to respond previously. Anyone read anything new on the neurological mechanisms thought to cause this disorder?
 
this is a hard question for me to answer since i have never taken much time off of PD's for about 18-20 yrs except for one or two year or two periods. I definitely see light patterns floating around all time time, especially with my eyes closed. and halos around lights and can easily see geometric stuff in carpets and basicall everywhere if i look long enough.

in fact i would say i see enough stuff that often on a low dose of acid it is hard to tell if i am seeing things from the acid or from my regular vision.


however, i have tripped probably thousands of times (almost 20yrs of at least once, twice a week, often those years have 4-5 months of 3 or 4 times a week) and I dont really know if this is HPPD as much as it is a case of I I trip quite often.

granted there were a a few years i took a break either due to choice or due to acid disappearing.

I will say two things:

I have found the Phen RC's to cause a lot more of these weird post-visual disturbances...not just patterns and tracers but weird light effects and movement. but i can not say how long term those effects are as I just started with them in the last year or so. (and really that is mainly for like a week or two after excessive 2c use)

However, none of it has ever really bothered me.

I love PD's and none of it has ever really scared me or screwed up my life (except when i was 18 and was convinced that three years of tripping had made me go crazy)

I don't know enough about this syndrome to know if I have it. But i do know I see little patterns all over everything in the right or wrong light. and images sometimes leave an after-image. but that might happen to everyone


i am very interested in knowing more about what causes this,etc.

I imagine if i took ten years off tripping it would be greatly diminished....but where is the fun in that??

None of this have ever kept me from being a happy, successful person, who loves being alive. i would not call it a disorder for me so maybe i dont have it. I CAN see how if someone suddenly decided to stop tripping and turned anti-PD or anti-drug how it would be a real bother

thanks!
 
I don't have HPPD but I also experience ongoing visual static, most often as a weird 'smearing' effect on my vision for a second or two, more noticeable after smoking weed. I've always been very prone to visuals on any substance and I have damage in the left optic nerve, giving me uneven pupils, so I don't know how much part that would play. Interesting to see so many people reporting the same low-level effects though.
 
the low level effects are pretty interesting, though its almost impossible to say whether or not they're do to psychedelics as they most frequently occur following other drug use, usually cannabis or amphetamines, both of which tend to alter my vision slightly, but noticeably. Would they alter my vision had i never used psychedelics? hard to say.... also, i'm not sure if mild visual disorders qualify for HPPD, as I'm not exactly sure if there is a consensus on the diagnostic criteria at the moment. Some people claim it must also include depersonalization/derealization, while others aren't so strict. In general though, for something to be considered a disorder, it interferes with the patients life in some way.
 
I have had HPPD since 2006. Any thing can onset it for me. Stress, smoking a lot of pot, florescent lighting, lack of sleep.

Drug to most likely to lead to HPPD is 2-ci and 2-cb.

3 of the 4 people I know who have take these drugs more than once have talked to me about having HPPD. I got it real bad for 2 years after trying 2-ci three times. Now I only get hppd like once or twice a month, use to be 3 times a week. Never too big of a deal, I mean, I know what I am seeing is not real.
 
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