• 🇳🇿 🇲🇲 🇯🇵 🇨🇳 🇦🇺 🇦🇶 🇮🇳
    Australian & Asian
    Drug Discussion


    Welcome Guest!
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

How many Aust BLs inject (IV/IM) drugs recreationally?

banga said:
i personally don't think it's a good idea to glamorise, here on BL, IV and IM use. for every "success" there are ten "failures"

i've seen more fucking failures than successes.

if you don't believe me....just contact your local rehab/methadone clinic......just for a fucken second opinion.

fuck shooting dirty shit straight into your body.
No one is glamourising it banga, just trying to get this bullshit stigma away, of which you seem to have actively eaten up.
I have grown up with the phenomena of IV use never far away, and while it is true that many have fucked up, you are probably forgetting the important fact:
YOU DON'T HEAR ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT DON'T FUCK UP!

'shooting dirty shit' 8(
How about smoking dirty shit? or eating or snorting dirty shit?
IV has its extra risks, the key is education, not heated words that help no-one.
 
i respect other peoples opinions on the matter but i still see IV and IM as dirty and junky'ish.....
add to this my extreme fear of needles. i feel sick and im cringing even thinking about it now.....
i just could never do it.....
i see the method as a step up from recreational use..
i've got no problem with other people doing it but its just not, and never will be me.
My 2c
DfI:)
 
I agree, good post Mibrane.


It's a good thing that this issue is being talked about more but I feel, that in the quest to combat ignorance about this method of administration, I think that some of the problems associated with it could be at risk of being glossed over. I've seen some great practical issues to do with I.V. use being discussed on BL, but I'd just like to say my piece about another important issue that I feel deserves a bit of attention.

There is a strong psychological component that goes along with I.V. use. For sure, people start out using this method because it is more effective and economically viable. But, there are a hell of a lot of drug users using this method who feel badly about themselves. Especially if they have an addiction to the drug they're administering.

Sometimes they feel bad because of the stigma Pleo mentioned that is associated with I.V. use and often it's their own personal problems that are the cause. How they feel when they come down can also contribute. In many cases it's all of those things. Either way, low self-esteem coupled with physical addiction can mean that the user may often end up not giving a shit about themselves and in turn, not caring about using sterile technique. And therein lies the possibility of getting serious health problems.

With respect, what Mibrane has talked about is the ideal scenario with I.V. use. If you stick to it you will avoid problems. But unfortunately the reality is sometimes very different. The user you see standing on a street corner looking like shit isn't just a stereotype, it's a real person. Not everyone ends up that way but it does happen. If you love the drug you're IV'ing and you become addicted, there is a real possibility that you'll place it's importance above everything else in your life. Eventually they'll come a time when you will do more or less anything to get a fit and you probably wont give a fuck about sterile technique.

When I was using smack, I had a real battle on my hands just to get my friends to use an alcohol wipe on themselves because the poor bastards didn't care any more...they just wanted to get loaded. They weren't so bothered that the fit was blunt or where it had been. And the not giving a shit attitude can be infectious in itself. When I saw my friends stop caring about themselves, I started to stop caring about myself too.

I'm aware that I'm presenting the worst case scenario here but it isn't uncommon. And before anyone flames me...I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't use the I.V. method, but if you do use it just be aware of the mindset you can fall into and the physical and mental problems that can result.
 
^^ That 'street user' scenario is just as applicable to crack use in the US, I see no real correlation to the use of needles. Needles can and do make things worse for the person on a self destructive trip, but needles are not the cause of this, bad technique is more a symptom than anything else.
 
did for a while some years ago.
mostly a mistake for me.
i do believe that it wouldnt necessarily be a problem/ or lead to a problem for many others.
done professionally its a preferable method for many drug users for many reasons.
 
Steveelektro: Authorised phlebotomist for all occasions:
weddings, parties, anything.

(or so he thinks)
8( =D
 
banga said:
do you understand english?

I do and I fail to see it.

Please back your comments with a quote so we can all understand.
 
What I find interesting it that many people will turn their heads in disgust at the thought of IV anything, but mention plugging and suddenly that's so much more tolerable.
For me personally I would never do it. Not because I'm afraid of needles or think it's dirty, but it's a safety mechanism from hardcore addiction for me. If you start IV then were does it all end. But bare in mind that I don't smoke amphetamines, and I don't touch anything during the week, and I don't double drop my pills. While I enjoy getting well munted (and boy do I get munted), you have to draw the line somewhere. The question is, where do you draw the line?

Some like to slam, I like to plug.
 
Top stuff mibrane & auntiedote :)

if you don't believe me....just contact your local rehab/methadone clinic......just for a fucken second opinion.
?? Did you think before you posted that ?? If all IV/IM users in the world were stamped "failure" or "success" (to use your words) which ones do you think you'd find at a rehab clinic?

I've never used IV or IM for anything, but I will one day.

:)
 
The MOA can contribute to an already low self esteem. For me anyway. Especially on a meth binge where everything can feel so wrong, the fact that I inject can make me feel dirty, especially in light of society's view on IV drug use. I used to hate that to some people I was an object of pity and this lowered my self esteem further.

A lot of it also had to do with the scene I was in and the particular people involved. There was a junky mindset of bringing everyone down that I really didn't want to be a part of. Thankfully I'm out of that now and I believe with good, accepting friends society's stigma should not effect the way you think about yourself.

[ Edit: I also just love the process of taking a hit, so that in itself is an addiction. ]
 
auntiedote said:
But, there are a hell of a lot of drug users using this method who feel badly about themselves. Especially if they have an addiction to the drug they're administering.

Sometimes they feel bad because of the stigma Pleo mentioned that is associated with I.V. use and often it's their own personal problems that are the cause. How they feel when they come down can also contribute. In many cases it's all of those things. Either way, low self-esteem coupled with physical addiction can mean that the user may often end up not giving a shit about themselves and in turn, not caring about using sterile technique. And therein lies the possibility of getting serious health problems.


I agree with most of that - I make a similar statement when discussing "internalised stereotypes." I'm certainly not saying that some pretty yukky shit doesn't go on. When injectors cop "its just dirty dirty dirty" not just from the status quo but from users of other drugs attempting to make themselves feel better about their use "I'm not as fucked up as you are, nah nah nah nah nah nah" (thats not aimed at you at all auntiedote) how can we expect users to challenge these myths every single day. It is emotionally draining. What other users have to digest being told that on a place like bluelight which is supposed to be a haven for harm reduction discussion? :( and without the active support of the users movement I have no doubt that I would have adopted a "who gives a fuck" attitude a long time ago.
The question is why and how do you stop it. A big part of the answer is to struggle against those stereotypes and to show that a different way is possible given the right social and legal structures.


With respect, what Mibrane has talked about is the ideal scenario with I.V. use. If you stick to it you will avoid problems. But unfortunately the reality is sometimes very different. The user you see standing on a street corner looking like shit isn't just a stereotype, it's a real person.


For those who don't know me: I've worked in drug user organisations for the better part of a decade. I've worked with hundreds of real persons, and I've seen some truly awful damage. I've seen users whacking into the cock veins in an alley. I've seen people lose limbs. Outisde of my immediate using circle, probably 90% of the users I work with are Hep C +. I don't need to ring a rehab - users share a lot more crap with peer representatives than they ever would with a medical professional "treating" them - and I've got the reasearch to back that up. And as has already been mentioned, detoxes (and most government drug intervention programs in general are dealing with users when they've hit a pretty low ebb. And so "official" stats and public perceptions based on research conducted amongst such a group is inherently slanted towards users having a hard time. There are tens of thousands of users who have never, and a not much smaller number who probably will never, come into contact with these services.

I've also seen and experience moments of absolute wonder and total pleasure =D - and so have those who have had such horrible things happen to them - or they wouldn't do it. And so the safe injection I talk about isn't just about avoiding blood-borne virus, or looking after your veins, or preventing endocarditis; these things are incredibly important, and its the reason I get funded to do what i do (from the economic rationalist viewpoint, spend a bit now so we don't have to spend much more on treatment later on). But the safe injection I promote through my work is also about how do you get the most wonder and the least harm out of your drug experience. From our first blurb at RS Melb "to minimise the harms and maximise the wonders."

If presenting an image that challlenges the stereotype is seen as glamourising (and I don't think what i wrote does that), so be it. I make no apologies for suggesting alternatives, and for working towards a different view of users. :p

Final words: if injecting was really so dirty, why is it the prefferred form of drug delivery in a medical context? Thousands of injections are administered everyday in a medical context (as i said in the last post, literally saving thousand of lives) without anyone running in going "thats just dirty". OK, so they're using medical quailty gear. But the target is always the injection - not the drug itself. It demonstrates that - and this is crucial - given real, afffordable access to injecting equipment, effective education, and self-esteem flowing from a rejection of the bullshit that gets placed on drug users in general, but injectors in particular.
 
Last edited:
Sllip said:
For me personally I would never do it. Not because I'm afraid of needles or think it's dirty, but it's a safety mechanism from hardcore addiction for me. If you start IV then were does it all end. But bare in mind that I don't smoke amphetamines, and I don't touch anything during the week, and I don't double drop my pills. While I enjoy getting well munted (and boy do I get munted), you have to draw the line somewhere. The question is, where do you draw the line?

this is how i feel about it too. though i'm scared shitless of needles (like *really* scared), so i'd never do it *anyway,* if that wasn't a factor i wouldn't consider it anyway. you do need to draw lines. for me, iving is the line between recreation and too far. for others, the line is different. so, i won't judge others who iv if they don't judge me for not doing it...

i also don't like the idea of it being *so* much better...i don't have an addictive personality, but i could see myself not wanting to go back to other forms of administration if i knew i had an option that was that much better. it's like trying to go back to smoking a pipe/joint after trying a bong for the first time!
 
Some very good points raised, and all opinions respected, especially the need to remove the stigma associated specifically with the "junky" image.

Unfortunatelly, this is a hard, even close to impossible job. You ask why? Perhaps not on bluelight. On bluelight, from what others have posted in this thread, I conclude they are indeed not junkies, but very well informed users that are very smart about what they do. This, however, is far from the truth on a wider scale. This is a FACT. 90% of IV/IM users ARE junkies as opposed to users who use other means of administration. Moroever, those 90% of IV/IM users put themselves at risk every day by not using filters, shooting dirty meth with iodine, p2p etc traces, shooting hard particles causing organ microscarring, vein collapse, misdosing on meth and worse on heroin, just to name a few.

I think this thread has concentrated too much on how "it's ok to IV/IM" and not enough on "IV is ok providing precautions abc... are taken". A few valuable posts, but unfortunatelly too many that are plain trash in my opinion.

So let's not forget, that the social stigma about IVing didn't come from nowhere. Whereas here on bluelight it is quite inappropriate and offensive, this is so because of the type of people here, that are members of a *HARM MINIMISATION GROUP*. Unfortunatelly, we represent a very tiny minority.

My personal opinion of IV/IM is that it is not worth it and even stupid with the quality of drugs available on the street unless they are properly cleaned via distillations and solvent recrystalisations by a person who really knows what they are doing and not a backyard "cook" (which is what *most* people will have access to).
 
Runner, perhaps you would like to back your "FACT"s up with some evidence to lend them some credibility. Not saying your wrong, just would like to see proof - studies etc.

Must agree with you on the quality of street drugs. Steps can be taken, but none will result in medical grade gear. On the rare occasions I do IV this is my main concern. In fact this is what stops me IVing on a more regular basis. All the more reason to legalise all street drugs and provide medical quality and consistent strength gear. But thats another issue altogether.
 
Runner said:
This is a FACT. 90% of IV/IM users ARE junkies as opposed to users who use other means of administration.

There's no published evidence of this. It's impossible to accurately measure the numbers of part time injectors at all, let alone in relation to numbers of full time injectors.

Recreational injectors (who often won't inject exclusively) aren't likely to come into contact with places where IDU research takes place (ie needle and syringe programs mostly) meaning that this group is almost completely hidden.

I used to work on an outreach project targeting recreational injectors in the dance music scene. It was a pretty interesting couple of years going out to parties to talk about needles with people.

From what I have seen, there are significant numbers of recreational injectors, who you would never notice on the street. You may notice some dependent users lack of general health / hygene whatever, but you shouldn't then assume that this is representative of the total population of injectors.

Here's some stats from the most recent National Household Survey (2001), which is the closest we can get to knowning the total number of injectors in Australia. There's no doubt that this survey is flawed, with most people believing there to be significant under reporting of illict drug use in this study.

Table 2.2: Summary of drugs ever used/tried: proportion of the population aged 14 years and over, Australia, 1993-2001

Marijuana/cannabis 33.1
Pain-killers/analgesics(c) 6.0
Tranquillisers/sleeping pills(c) 3.2
Steroids(c) 0.3
Inhalants 2.6
Heroin 1.6
Methadone(d) 0.3
Other opiates(c) 1.2
Amphetamines(c) 8.9
Cocaine 4.4
Hallucinogens 7.6
Ecstasy/designer drugs 6.1
Injected drugs 1.8

Assuming this is correct, 1.8% of the Australian population (360 000) have injected. This has stayed relatively stable over the last 10 years (ranging from 1.3% - 2.1%). There's no way to work out who amongst this group is a recreatioanl injector and who is a dependent user.

I mean you could probably rule homeless people out of the sample population (seeing as it is the "household" survey) as well as people without telephones (many interveiws were conducted by phone), or people in jail, or people in rehab / hospital etc.

Aside from this sort of survey semantics, its pretty difficult to extract accurate generalisations about injectors actual habits (or lack of).
 
Sorry, I can't back up my 90% figure since I used it as a generalised statement to make a point. The point is that *junkies form the majority of IV users*. This is sad, but true. I thought my point was quite clear.

I don't need to bring any stats in, because anyone that disagrees with the exact wording of the above statement is kidding themselves.

Think about this: everyone agrees there is social stigma associated with IV drug use. Now this will scare off most of the people. The only people it won't scare off are the open minded ones like here on bluelight and the junkies (or those about to turn into ones). Now everyone would agree that the type of people that go onto discussion forum like this etc are a minority.

Is my point clear now?

Now Flexi, you state of 1.8% of people that have injected probably in fact reflects the users that have tried once etc, or the users that are well informed, open minded etc. much like on bluelight. For our purposes, we shall ignore the ones that have tried injecting once or twice. This would probably bring your figure of 1.8% to just over 0.

The real junkies wouldn't have a land line to participate in the survey :) Have a think about that :)
 
Request for Clarification:

Do you make any distinction in your definition of whatever constitutes a "real junky"? How does one become a "junky", as opposed to a recreational intravenous drug user? Is junky a label that is used by one to identify themself, or is it a label thrust upon one by others?

Where do you draw the line? What is the absolute indisputable proof that one should look for in their life, appearance, habits, finances, or personality that says "X marks the JUNKY here..."?

Is it habitual use and/or dependence on a chemical? Is it that their method of choice for taking drugs is a syringe into a vein? Is it that they use daily? Or is it that they choose heroin as their drug of choice, or some combination of the above? Does a junky HAVE to be unemployed and steal for their hits to classify in your description of a junky? Perhaps there are examples junkies in each of these groups and/or in combinations... but if you're using vague generalisations to define the terms then your conclusions will be confined to broad vague generalisations too, I fear.

I think this issue needs significant clarification before we can make any kind of strong discussion about what proportion of intravenous drug users become "junkies" and how likely we are to gain information about the demographic...

BigTrancer :)
 
Top