How is vision enhanced by psychedelics?

[Ham-milton]

Evolution is a very economocal thing. If the plant puts that much energy into making allkaloids, it would have become extinct if it didn't confer an advantage of some sort as that would effectively be wasted energy. Can't think of a case where that doesn't apply

Except that for all we know, they will go extinct for that reason.

It doesn't appear that the DMT-producing grasses are doing it out of any evolutionary advantage, apparently it's more of a by-product of other syntheses.

 

[uncomfortablepants]

Evolution is a biological thing in this context. The conversation was about humans and psychedelic plants evolving together. What other sort of evolution is applicable?

Evolution occurs every generation. Some changes are bad, and some turn out good. They're all entirely random though- if some random mutation is good, it'll be kept. If it's bad, the poor critter will perform poorly, not pass it's genes on and it'll disapear.

Things don't evolve for a reason. They evolve entirely by chance. That's why it takes so long. If every generation had the most appropriate mutations occuring, it'd happen very rapidly. That's just not the case, though.

Learning and evolution are not remotely similar. Learning occurs within a brain, within a liftetime. It can be passed down, but it has to be re-learned every time. Having it in a book instead of having to directly figure things out just makes it a hell of a lot easier.

Evolution is purely biological.



Tens of thousands? Corn didn't evolve along with humans. It was almost exactly how it is today, just bigger (through human conducted selective 'breeding' efforts). Again, corn didn't evolve "because"- it happen by random chance, and it turned out that this worked well for it, so the ones that are the way it is, were kept, and others faded out. It turned out that animals ate it and passed the grains on, or if not, the seeds could still make it to the ground and grow again. This was long before humans.



No, you shouldn't have. Adaptation is the same thing as evolution in this context. You can apply whatever mystical overtones you want, but there's only one thing guiding the changes in a species from one generation to the next: the ability for those changes to improve the likelihood that it'll live and reproduce. Neutral changes will likely fade out over time, or continue on as a subspecies or perhaps a new species if the change was large enough, but they other species would still remain, since they have equal chances of passing on.

Having psychedelic drugs within a plant seems to be a bit of a neutral change- or an abberation in the biosynthetic proccesses. It doesn't seem to give any benefit to the plant to live onto the next generation, though some DMT containing grasses live on better because once a sheep eats some, it'll never eat it again.

I think we have a misunderstanding.
BunrOneDown said “I really would like to believe that all this extra stimuli really is there. Maybe we evolved without the capabilities to perceive it because of its complete irrelevance to our existence. It really doesn't add up though, its just wishful, biased thinking"

and then I tried to reiterate the irrelevance of psychedelics to our existence by saying that they don’t help humans survive and reproduce.

I am not suggesting that we evolved together in some sort of symbiotic or parasitic relationship.




You say evolution occurs every generation and then go on to suggest it takes tens of thousands.

You also say that evolution is not remotely similar to learning after describing natural selection. If you think about the concept of natural selection, it is very similar to how you learn.

And I don’t see how corn didn’t evolve with humans? Especially with “human conducted selective breeding efforts”.

And I was not using the term evolution in a purely biological context.

Do you have any evidence that DMT in grasses deters sheep in any way?
and I’m not sure how your feeling mystical overtones.




The only point I was trying to make was that I don't see any reason why the effects of psychedelic drugs are inherently delusional or lead to inaccurate internal representations of external stimuli.

 

[Ham-milton]

Evolution does't really occur every generation. Mutations occur every generation. Evolution is the grand long run. I should have been a little more careful in defining that point.

Corn had already evolved to the point where it is. The only difference is that we selectively bred for large kernels and ears. That's not evolution, it's even mutations. No natural selection. It's just really carefully bred plants.

Agreed with you on the irrelevance of their effect on our or their evolution.

 

[fastandbulbous]

Except that for all we know, they will go extinct for that reason.

It doesn't appear that the DMT-producing grasses are doing it out of any evolutionary advantage, apparently it's more of a by-product of other syntheses.

One species maybe, but all DMT containing species? I think there's a purpose to it's synthesis, just we don't yet know. Think how many other plants produce alkaloids... If it was a by product sort of theing, they'd all be extinct.

Read Dr Richard Dawkin's 'The Selfish Gene' - even the amount of energy expended in synthing small amounts of DMT can make the difference between thriving & oblivion. That being the case, it must have some useful function that naturally selects for that strain

 

[nikol]

If you don't believe us that it's just an hallucinations, get a friend to make you two eye charts, with ever decreasing font sizes... see if you can read any further down one the chart once it is placed outside your focal distance when your high

I would lean on the side of agreeing with you. I have myopia to the point that my vision loes acuity at 6 inches, and after a foot I can see nothing resembling a sharp edge (I'm legally blind).
I have wondering about this many times; I continuously compare the both the visuals with glasses on/off, and clarity with glasses on/off during trips under ANY psychedelic and have been able to find no pattern at all in the differences of sight under all the different circumstances- focusing far, focusing close, object specific, landscape view, etc.
But, who knows. I would love to get some type of definitive answer on the physical impact that psychedelics have on the eye during a trip, but all the answers seem to be either entirely beyond my level of comprehension, or unknown as of yet. All I have to go on is my experience...

 

[foundationx4]

^^^ along with this, I also hear much better on some psychedelics (i.e., 'shrooms, marijuana). For instance, I can decode every word of a rap song that would only have been jibberish if I were sober. This is not just a hallucination, since I can verify the lyrics.

yes, i have also experienced this

 

[Jabberwocky]

FB, the economical point only stands if the species is strained for resources in a way that the adaptation can effect. DMT producing grasses may have evolved for some random reason and have remained around just because a grass that produces DMT is able to survive. Of course the same grass that didnt produce DMT might likely flourish, but thats not how things randomly happened (randomness is key to understanding evolution).

 

[uncomfortablepants]

Sorry if this is getting to off topic but I agree that DMT is probably more of a by-product or intermediate product in a pathway that is affected by natural selection.

You see it all the time with signalling molecules. If you look at just about any hormone or neurotransmitter in any organism, their are intermediates and by-products that are present in varying amounts. Often the importance of a molecule found in a biosynthetic pathway is that it is a by product or intermediate of some other molecule that is strongly selected for.

 

[fastandbulbous]

FB, the economical point only stands if the species is strained for resources in a way that the adaptation can effect. DMT producing grasses may have evolved for some random reason and have remained around just because a grass that produces DMT is able to survive. Of course the same grass that didnt produce DMT might likely flourish, but thats not how things randomly happened (randomness is key to understanding evolution).

Every organism is strained for resources because if that organism doesn't utilize it, another will came along and will utilize it. That means every organism is in competition with god knows how many others for a limited resource. That's pretty much strained for resources as you put it. Put energy into making enzymes for producing DMT when you could be putting it into reproduction, photosynthesis etc and it's to your detriment unless the DMT produced provides an evolutionary survival advantage outweighed by just putting it into other reproduction, hardiness etc.

Recommend reading 'The Selfish Gene' by Richard Dawkins. He puts that case far more eloquently than I ever could

 

[rave23]

your subconscious mind reconises and can 'see' all the structure, i think it's merely your eyes are used to see everything blurry when you take off your glasses.

Psylocibin simply makes your eyes 'see' more of the real thing.

Sorry, i am baked. That's my theory anyways...