How is PCP different from classical psychedelics?

[Ismene]

I don't believe people get violent on PCP. All the violent stories seem to be rehashed from other similar drug scares. Plus taking the word of a guy talking to the court system that "I was on PCP when I beat my wife your honour" is pointless - he'll say whatever he thinks he takes some blame off him.

If you take PCP you sit down and feel spacey and giggle a bit. That's about it. I think the silly stories are still going for this (while they seemed to have died off for pot, heroin,LSD etc) because PCP is so rare that very few people have any idea what it's like.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

what nobody added is that pcp can be low dosed for a different range of effects....you can be pretty functional on at at the threshold level...while psychedelics just cause anxiety and awkwardness at threshold doses.

 

[phuckingnutz]

PCP is so rare that very few people have any idea what it's like.

As far as I can remember it was pretty much like 3-meo-pcp is, but it's been 35+ years ago.
I know that some of the effects are the same as or very similar to all disso's, but I am not that discerning a user. We'd just pile a bunch in a bong on some commercial Mexican and try and hold it for a 30-45 seconds and then...???...who knows?
I used to "comp" people a free dime if they could take the whole thing in 1 toke and hold it for a full minute...it was worth it to watch them try and maintain...we were very bored kids, I guess.
We'd also sit around and watch other people trip on Jimson seeds...until we figured out it was bad for you.
Like I said we were bored and we were bullet proof...or so we thought. Most of my friends didn't think I'd make it to my 18th B-day, but when I did they rethought and said I wouldn't make it to 21, but here I am today trying to recoup and regroup. A little about me, FWIW.

 

[Solipsis]

After these decades, in what way did you wise up regarding using and in what ways did you not?

 

[JackARoe]

I see Solipsis asks the large questions.

Phuckingnutz, you are f*cking nuts! I mean that in a respectable and interesting way. Thanks for posting a little about yourself. I tend to do that and realize it afterwards looking back at the posts.

I remember in the 70's the media really went after PCP as if it were something that would make you go nuts after one try. Anyone remember a documentary called Angel Death? We were shown that in high school health class. I just remember one girl was dead in a pool floating and her friend saying "my friend swims real good!" Naturally they were both on PCP. http://www.worldcat.org/title/angel-death/oclc/6711193

When ketamine became popular that really clarified that PCP may not be the big bad drug that is was portrayed to be since it was similar and intelligent people indulged. So PCP as a ghetto drug was toned down a bit while ketamine was called the rich man's PCP.

One thing I do remember s most people did NOT want to get PCP mistaken for LSD in the 70's. Or get store bought mushrooms sprinkled with PCP. So really, it was avoided big time except for a few fans.

Never had it, never will. You all can experiment, do so wisely if you do.

 

[phuckingnutz]

After these decades, in what way did you wise up regarding using and in what ways did you not?

Well, funny thing is, every year I THINK I am wiser, but then another year comes and I see how phuckingnutz I still am man.
Honestly, the best thing I have learned about myself, drug-wise, is that I have little to NO self control. So I try and stay away from the stuff that I might have a problem with.
Now that I think about it though, I actually do exercise some self control that previously would've been out of my grasp.
Like this K I have. After a few 200mg doses, I realized that I will get more out of it if I can use it sparingly over the long haul and am doing ok so far. Not to discount the usefulness of the full immersion doses though, but every dose doesn't have to be huge.
My mantra has always been: "if some is good, more is better", but I know that to be false logic and I guess that is the "takeaway" from this post.
Sorry if I am rambling, but I am on the downside of a 50mg K dose...and I won't dose again today....Tomorrow?..maybe.
Phuckingnutz is "inside your head" and now you've seen inside a bit of his.
Peace

 

[TheBlackPirate]

Here's an intriguing observation from the medical journal at the beginning of this topic. While PCP is associated with increased conflict with law enforcement classical psychedelics are associated with decreased encounters with law enforcement. Classical psychedelics and PCP are certainly in different groups of drugs with opposite effects on violence and arrest rate.

Hallucinogen [classical psychedelic] use predicts reduced recidivism among substance-involved offenders under community corrections supervision

Peter S Hendricks1
C Brendan Clark2
Matthew W Johnson3
Kevin R Fontaine1
Karen L Cropsey2

1Department of Health Behavior, School of Public Health, University of Alabama at Birmingham, Birmingham, USA
2Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Neurobiology, University of Alabama at Birmingham, Birmingham, USA
3Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, USA

Peter S Hendricks, School of Public Health, Department of Health Behavior, University of Alabama at Birmingham, 227L Ryals Public Health Building, 1665 University Blvd., Birmingham, AL 35294, USA. Email: XXX{at}uab.edu




Abstract

Hallucinogen-based interventions may benefit substance use populations, but contemporary data informing the impact of hallucinogens on addictive behavior are scarce. Given that many individuals in the criminal justice system engage in problematic patterns of substance use, hallucinogen treatments also may benefit criminal justice populations. However, the relationship between hallucinogen use and criminal recidivism is unknown. In this longitudinal study, we examined the relationship between naturalistic hallucinogen use and recidivism among individuals under community corrections supervision with a history of substance involvement (n=25,622). We found that hallucinogen use predicted a reduced likelihood of supervision failure (e.g. noncompliance with legal requirements including alcohol and other drug use) while controlling for an array of potential confounding factors (odds ratio (OR)=0.60 (0.46, 0.79)). Our results suggest that hallucinogens may promote alcohol and other drug abstinence and prosocial behavior in a population with high rates of recidivism.


Keywords: Hallucinogen psychedelic, psilocybin, lysergic acid diethylamide, recidivism, criminal justice, positive psychology

http://jop.sagepub.com/content/28/1/62.abstract

 

[TheBlackPirate]

If any of y'all have other publications on the behavioral effects of PCP from medical journals please share.

 

[JackARoe]

TBP, I come back to this thread due to the friend I mentioned above. I need righteous info from some of the experienced Bluelighters. I think an intervention may be the only way to wake him up. His wife came to me and I have a rep for knowing about all drugs except this class of drugs. So I searched all of Bluelight for knowledge. Two types of drug use/abuse I do not have personal experience on are benzodiazepines and dissociatives. I count myself lucky. What I read about abuse (not use) is not pretty. I pointed the sight to his wife and told her to browse. Her husband(my friend) has only been abusing ketamine for a year but he is screwed up. Bladder and mind. Now the marriage. He is a good guy too when he is sober and himself. So this stuff is new to me. So I appreciate the info TBP and everyone else that posts their experiences. God bless bluelight!

In my search I came across this thread http://www.bluelight.org/vb/archive/index.php/t-633016.html

I have to say I have another friend that indulges in ketamine maybe 3 times a year and really has control. (he can do that with cocaine too!) I respect him. So as I have always said, there is no good or bad drug, just good or bad relationships with drugs.

Anyway, I think I read pages and pages about dissociatives (ketamine specifically although I suspect my friend know how to order chems too from the internet) and am glad to have this resource here and candid members relaying their experiences, good or bad. It is a valuable resource. It also shows the difference between use and abuse and the consequences. And that goes for any class of drugs.

I read one of the most respected members on here say to people if heavy ketamine use continues it will result in a catheter to pee for life. And those post are from 7 years ago. So the warnings are there.

Stay well everyone and thanks again for any and all info.

 

[Solipsis]

Don't know what kind of info you are looking for, talking with him is indeed important and not letting him run away from the discussion - and also at a rather lucid moment to get through to him. If his wife and friend tell him that he may very well start losing things or people dear to him if he doesn't quit, also his health... it should scare him enough, but he also has to have an alternative to get off it and to actually make the choice to want to stop. There would have to be a dialogue and the offer to just talk about painful things instead of using all the time. Hopefully the painful stuff is confronting but without focussing on the threat, but rather on the other ways to proceed. That you are there to help him but that its only possible if he cooperates and wants to.

If he doesn't choose there is really very little to do unfortunately, you can't make people quit. So it has to be enough of a wake-up call. Even leverage in the end is a bad motivator, it has to come from within - like inception .

I have experience with dependency / abuse of both, and I am not entirely sure if people are likely to get hooked on these if there aren't really other problems in one's life so a real discussion would have to start to address the real underlying problems. Benzo's are not easily quit because withdrawal can be hell. So probably it's best to stop the ketamine first and get a doc to help you taper with the benzo's after that.
Benzo's for a lot of people are not an interesting high... on the other hand it is a mighty relief for the anxiety from facing problems. (Well I'd say some drugs are just easier to do habitually - like weed - without a person having huge other problems, while other drugs are especially abused almost exclusively to escape)

Don't know at what point the mind is too hazed to get out of it without some serious support and force, and if when all else fails it's not better to go to rehab. It certainly saved me when I was fucked up on ketamine and benzo's (I also used other things but those were my two main dependency issues, the K mentally, and the benzos both mental and physical.

It's no way to live to keep numbing and destroying yourself even if the reasons are initially understandable with some kinds of problems that are hard to deal with in other ways. Yeah the world is initially harsh when you quit, but it's pointless and harmful to keep it up at some point.

 

[JackARoe]

Thanks Solipsis, like any drug addiction the person has to want to stop, and maybe some alternative could help. Right now I think the tough love approach is needed, and the only advice I can give to the wife is take care of herself and if he doesn't cooperate do what she has to do. Like you said, that should be enough of a wake up call for him to cooperate. My concern is that he thinks he is ok and there is a level of denial that may not make him ready. The damage he is doing is not apparent to him, so maybe losing things will point that out. The only experience I have is opiate addiction, on and off for years. And I see regardless of the drug it all comes down to the person wanting to do something to improve.

I just had another friend confide in me and a few other people that he was drinking a half gallon of vodka every two days. (the fact that he was walking around drunk made it no surprise!). However he felt like he was going to die, so he was more than cooperative. Until he got into a detox his girlfriend drove him around and he really wanted off alcohol. He did it and looks 100% better. I like success stories.

I see regardless of the drug sometimes the success rates involve a real desire by the person to stop and the ability to work at it. So after some reading here ketamine is the same as any drug, can be addicting to some people and the recovery just like any other drug. I guess for me I never liked it so in my mind I can't figure out how he can live like this. But drugs are a personal choice so it can be any drug. Some drugs more than others, and I think the classic psychedelics may be the least addictive compared to others.

 

[Solipsis]

Yeah sounds about right, but I would be careful... if his wife threatens to take a step back, it should be made very clear so that the focus stays on the value of admitting the problem and starting to work on solutions and help/support. If it is too much of a "hint" type signal, it could easily be taken the wrong way, a way that is more consistent with his denial and despair - you don't want anger that further complicates the matter, ruins relationships, and self-destruction.

So I'd make absolutely sure that two things are conveyed at the same time: the seriousness of the matter and the looming consequences (the threat of losing what is important) combined with insisting that it doesn't have to get worse, but instead that this chance should be seen as possibly saving him. So again: the wake-up call.

Right at the start of this year I had something like that, I was caught doing MXE and getting noticeably high in front of my father (who got very worried about me), because I was distraught about a broken romantic relationship. So I too was facing the threat of losing a lot, so I agreed to lock away my extensive stash. I sobered up completely the months after that. Found another place to live (after moving 3 times) and am more responsible now, which is doable because the terrible-luck-streak seems to have ended for now.

Psychedelics are really the least addictive, yes. They can be habit-forming, but then still essentially they confront you with things which is the opposite of escapism. Confronting and dealing with stuff is essential to therapy, so at least when not abused IME psychedelics help you stay clear and want to do the right thing. I think when certain things are resolved in a person, there are a number of states that are a natural default, such as compassion and peace. I'm not saying it's always a choice to become that way, and especially not an easy one - but mostly because conflicts that complicate things are not our choice.

 

[JackARoe]

Agreed, a delicate matter, and we don't want anger or confusion. The seriousness is very apparent and it doesn't have to get worse. Nature may be taking it's course, the peeing little bits of heavy liquid every half hour may be getting his attention and starting to worry him. Let's hope he does it all on his own. Bladder damage from ketamine is heavily documented so if that is not a wake up call hard to say what is.

Solipsis, I've been reading here for about 10 years. You have been a great source of info over the years. Thanks for reaching into your wellspring of experience and sharing it with others for learning. It is very appreciated. (just figured I'd say thanks where it is due)

 

[Bromohummingbird]

who the hell want to consume PCP while 3-methoxy fenciclidine and another MUCH BETTER analogues exist?... I mean, why this medical journals are so anachronistic?
Anyway... this state of violence can be just for the badtrip that causes.

 

[MSK]

Not really, I did mention 'victims' including plenty being respectable people around here who also report on a lot of other stuff. Not saying that means I know them, but it seems enough to say it's unlike them - no scratch that, it means I believe them when they more or less say that themselves.

Nobody is immune to something like that happening just by being a non-aggressive person, please don't delude yourself. We all are wired to have certain impulses. This has nothing to do with how good we normally are at keeping them checked but what happens to anyone when a drug unchecks those impulses.

Sure, there are people who are unusually sensitive to e.g. get violent on those drugs you mention, but those involve only or mostly the disinhibition part and not really the dissociation (well yeah apart from alcohol which also dissociates a bit). But that some people are more sensitive than others is a distraction from the propensities of PCP when just taken above a certain dosage. Not all drugs have the same 'error margin' by a long shot... with some of them it's specifically hard to get into trouble with and with other drugs its the opposite.

I like dissociatives but I don't overly defend them because of my preferences. The idea that you are above it, taken from the fact that yes not everyone is equally resistent or volatile etc... that is the kind of very human hubris that probably led some of these respectable people to 'lose themselves'.. Well no hubris is kind of judgmental, I don't think there is a big blame on the person. If there is any blame, it's on some of these drugs, realizing that certain kinds of dissociatives are not forgiving if you try to (or accidentally) 'hole' on it too hard like on Ket, and you - anyone - can lose themselves, regressing to modes of being we like to deny all having in our programming.

I don't believe that the reason I am not one who victimized himself, not yet at least, with PCP-like drugs, is because I am a peaceful person.. but because what I learn about these drugs makes me *that* cautious. Fair enough, I should confess that I eyeball, but I don't eyeball AND try to get 'full strength' trips. Only times I dosed even in that full strength trip range, I definitely weighed.

As for the OP:

Psychedelics expand consciousness and awareness while dissociatives rather reduce awareness while in that reduced state our inner consciousness reflects on itself. I think psychedelic reduction in aggression / violence and increase in compassion comes from expanded lucid consciousness dissolving miscommunications, dissonance, misunderstanding all of which are breeding grounds for anger. On dissociatives instead things can get very skewed: emotions are placid but blunted, and some impulses stop while others are apparently set loose.. that seems conductive to first restriction to the rational and then something more primal.

These experiences may share feelings of pureness and unity, but behaviorally and realistically the outcomes can obviously be very different.

I missed this answer, sorry ^^

I'm with you, I'm not delusional at all I know even without drugs, life could bring the worse of me with a surprise... Like, putting this into hardcore mode, if I was so angry with my imaginary girlfriend because some shit totally unexpected from her that I could punch her in the rush of the moment... Something I never did or thought I would be able to do, and without drugs involved.

I think our pointviews aren't so far, impulses will screw us sooner or later