How did you overcome your own prejudice?

[psychedelicsoul]

You only care about pushing your own personal agenda and not interested in reaching any sound conclusion from this discussion, so it's kind of pointless even talking to you. You can't be reasoned with and will never admit that you are wrong and no amount of sound logic is going to dissuade you. If you can't see how acting violently towards a minority is wrong, you may be even more hopeless than I thought.

I never advocated violence or acting on hate. I just don't think the government should allow 3rd party organizations to come to public schools and try to change peoples thinking.
IT's not homophobia, I disagree on the role of government. I support the rights of parents to teach their kids that homosexuality is okay, or that it's a sin. I just don't see that as the job of public schools.

I know that these organizations wanna stop LGBT suicide, but I think that's a small price to pay for the freedom to teach your children what you want without a public entity interfering.

 

[jammin83]

Well given the high caliber at home teaching most kids are receiving, it's a necessary evil. Parenting? It's called netflix and video games anymore. I think you are missing the point. It's not about accepting homosexuality so much as to have an understanding of the current state of affairs. This understanding prevents conflicts and hate-inspired acts. If you don't believe me, look at how racism is accepted anymore. I don't deny that there is still tons of racism in america, but not to the extent it once was. It wasn't that long ago that we had separate facilities and all of that. On the west coast, intolerance isn't accepted nearly as much as it is the south.

To a certain degree, I agree with some of your beliefs on the role of government. There is a way to convey information without a ton of bias though. The reason DARE sucked so much, is because it was super biased and unrealistic, not to mention it was an abysmal failure. I think they should teach kids not to hate. Hateful people cause many of the worlds problems.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

Well given the high caliber at home teaching most kids are receiving, it's a necessary evil. Parenting? It's called netflix and video games anymore. I think you are missing the point. It's not about accepting homosexuality so much as to have an understanding of the current state of affairs. This understanding prevents conflicts and hate-inspired acts. If you don't believe me, look at how racism is accepted anymore. I don't deny that there is still tons of racism in america, but not to the extent it once was. It wasn't that long ago that we had separate facilities and all of that. On the west coast, intolerance isn't accepted nearly as much as it is the south.

To a certain degree, I agree with some of your beliefs on the role of government. There is a way to convey information without a ton of bias though. The reason DARE sucked so much, is because it was super biased and unrealistic, not to mention it was an abysmal failure. I think they should teach kids not to hate. Hateful people cause many of the worlds problems.

I can't trust the public schools to just teach kids not to hate. I think they'll teach kids that homosexuality is okay and that they shoudln't feel guilt about being gay, or that it's wrong for them to commit suicide or that the bible is wrong. It'd basically be a "Christianity is stupid" class.

 

[jammin83]

Good luck getting them to teach that in the south. I think there might be some resistance.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

Good luck getting them to teach that in the south. I think there might be some resistance.

Well, of course, and for good reasons.

How would you feel if an anti-gay hate group coninced your child that he's going to hell? How would you feel if a racist group came and convinced your child black people are bad? Wouldn't you feel your rights as a parent are violated? If so, then how do you think religious parents would feel if a group came in and told kids it's okay to be gay?

Since morality is subjective, then they should invite groups like Exodus International to come to schools. Since they're opinion that homosexuality is wrong is neither "good" nor "bad" compared to the viewpoint that homosexuality is okay. I respect both viewpoints and therefore, opposite indoctrination on both sides.

I don't really care if the LGBT suicide rate triples, I still would not support indocrination of minors via government.

 

[Xorkoth]

Your points sound good on the surface (and applied to some things they are great points - for example, DARE, since it's full of bullshit information), but I think we have a responsibility as a society to teach acceptance of other people's beliefs and lifestyles as long as it's not a lifestyle that hurts others. The goal should be to minimize harm and maximize happiness for the people of the country/world. Indoctrinating hate (as is done in various ways by cultures, not by governments - for example, your extreme intolerance and unwillingness to accept gay people, or the same focused on race, and so forth, is a product of your culture) hurts both the ones indoctrinated and the ones indoctrinated against. If there is something we can do as a society to help reduce that, then I support it, even if it's done in schools. School should expose people to information, as much information as possible so the children are able to draw their own conclusions about issues. If schools don't present an opposing viewpoint about homosexuals, then kids who are brought up in bigoted households will have a difficult time ever considering an opposing viewpoint in a serious manner. But if they're exposed to information about it, they might go one way or the other, but at least they'll have the chance to briefly escape indoctrination by their parents/culture and get the chance to be an individual about it instead of blindly following the herd.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

Your points sound good on the surface (and applied to some things they are great points - for example, DARE, since it's full of bullshit information), but I think we have a responsibility as a society to teach acceptance of other people's beliefs and lifestyles as long as it's not a lifestyle that hurts others. The goal should be to minimize harm and maximize happiness for the people of the country/world. Indoctrinating hate (as is done in various ways by cultures, not by governments - for example, your extreme intolerance and unwillingness to accept gay people, or the same focused on race, and so forth, is a product of your culture) hurts both the ones indoctrinated and the ones indoctrinated against. If there is something we can do as a society to help reduce that, then I support it, even if it's done in schools. School should expose people to information, as much information as possible so the children are able to draw their own conclusions about issues. If schools don't present an opposing viewpoint about homosexuals, then kids who are brought up in bigoted households will have a difficult time ever considering an opposing viewpoint in a serious manner. But if they're exposed to information about it, they might go one way or the other, but at least they'll have the chance to briefly escape indoctrination by their parents/culture and get the chance to be an individual about it instead of blindly following the herd.

I think you can teach kids about homosexuality. You can do it in biology class. But I don't think the school should tell them how to view homosexuality from a moral standpoint.

I mean, the parents are indoctrinating kids to hate gays, but if the school interfere's then they're no different. Both are indoctrinating kids in different ways. Since morality is subjective, then anti-gay hate groups should be allowed to operate in schools as well.

To tell kids that they shouldn't hurt people who are gay is one thing... But no school should EVER have the right to tell kids that it's not a sin. Teaching kids that homosexuality is a sin isn't bigoted. It's just basic christianity. Should schools try to stop kids from following their religion? Because if you tell kids that homosexuality is okay, then you're telling them their religion is wrong. If you wanna tell kids not to bully gays, that's fine... but there's nothing objectively wrong with hating homosexuality, so to get in the way would be to deprive parents of their freedom and use the government to control the moral stance of children.

You're telling the parents, "Hey, you're too stupid to teach your kids about right and wrong, so the government needs to do it for you".
Bigoted parents aren't wrong for being bigoted, since there's no such thing as "wrong". By telling them they're wrong, you're using the government to get kids to conform to society. I personally, hate this modern society and I don't think people need to be indoctrinated into conforming to it.

 

[Xorkoth]

I don't think functional morality is entirely objective. We want to fashion a world in which the the global population is able to live in harmony as much as possible. Or presumably we do, I hope we do anyway... harmony between groups would facilitate a better world in a significant way. Imagine all people working together instead of killing and hating each other. Allowing people to indoctrinate hate into their children perpetuates the cycle of violence and hatred which is pulling us down, and has always been a force pulling us down. The only way to escape it is if children begin to see things differently and view humanity as a global community that is equally worthy of respect. Teaching in schools is the most effective way to overcome parental/cultural indoctrination because there is unlikely to be any other real influencer in a child's life if all their family and friends share their indoctrination. Presenting to kids the idea that homosexuals, Americans, muslims, other races and everyone else are all just people too who are equally worthy of respect is an important idea for people to be exposed to, for the future of our species. If the idea is presented, some kids will begin to see things from a perspective outside their indoctrination and some of those will change their opinions, and I believe every person has a right to make up their own mind. But it can be hard when no opposing viewpoint is ever given or allowed.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

I don't think functional morality is entirely objective. We want to fashion a world in which the the global population is able to live in harmony as much as possible. Or presumably we do, I hope we do anyway... harmony between groups would facilitate a better world in a significant way. Imagine all people working together instead of killing and hating each other. Allowing people to indoctrinate hate into their children perpetuates the cycle of violence and hatred which is pulling us down, and has always been a force pulling us down. The only way to escape it is if children begin to see things differently and view humanity as a global community that is equally worthy of respect. Teaching in schools is the most effective way to overcome parental/cultural indoctrination because there is unlikely to be any other real influencer in a child's life if all their family and friends share their indoctrination. Presenting to kids the idea that homosexuals, Americans, muslims, other races and everyone else are all just people too who are equally worthy of respect is an important idea for people to be exposed to, for the future of our species. If the idea is presented, some kids will begin to see things from a perspective outside their indoctrination and some of those will change their opinions, and I believe every person has a right to make up their own mind. But it can be hard when no opposing viewpoint is ever given or allowed.

I'd support that if there weren't truancy laws.
But since there are, you'd be forcibly indoctrinating kids into abandoning their religion and ideology. In my opinion, a better would is one where everyone maintains their individuality without interefering with each other... That includes religious people.

Christians should not be accepting of the gay lifestyle because their bible says so. To teach kids differently by force is to take away the right of the parents to teach their religion.
It's not wrong for the parents or children to be a bigot. Because there's no such thing as "wrong". You say bigotry is a bad thing, but that's just your opinion. Bigotry doesn't matter unless people use thier actions to harm others.

I don't know how the world "should" be. That's why I support freedom. I refuse to push my ideology onto other people, that's why I want zero ideology and zero morality to be enforced in schools. If parents see homosexuality as sinful, then they should be able to know thier kids aren't being indoctrinated in schools to feel differently. I see what you're doing as a war on Christianity.

I also see the LGBT suicide rate as a non-issue and have no problem with it rising or lowering. I think schools should have no right to step into the private affairs of students who wish to end their lives.