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Homeostasis and Tripping Forever

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redfurkk

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May 6, 2016
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From my understanding, the mind cannot sustain certain forms of alternative conscious experience because the brain needs to maintain homeostasis using strategies such as upregulating/downregulating of neurotransmitter reception.

A critical example of this, I think, is the tolerance exponential build-up following repeated administration of serotoninergic phenetylamines such as mescaline.

If we were able to prevent the brain from instilling homeostasis by sensitization of the right system of neurons (5HT2A serotonin receptors in the previous case), could we then sustain no-tolerance build-up and then humans would be able to live in a alternative state of consciousness forever/as-long-as-their-supply-last/until-neuroplasticity-enforces-permanent-perceptual-enhancement ?
 
It is possible for altered states of consciousness (ASCs) to be sustained for many years. However, we tend to think of those individuals as being disordered, as opposed to experiencing an ASC. The reason for the disorder label is because people in prolonged altered states sometimes have trouble functioning and hence can be profoundly unhappy or may have trouble carrying out normal activities.

The argument can be made that certain types of psychiatric illnesses represent prolonged altered states of consciousness. Certain neurological conditions induce profound ASCs -- if you read books by Oliver Sacks, it is apparent that some of his patients live in markedly different states of consciousness.

Although rare, there have also been cases of prolonged psychosis that were precipitated by hallucinogens use. It is almost certainly the case that hallucinogens do not induce psychosis, but they may be capable of accelerating or activating underlying psychopathology. Nevertheless, the existence of such patients would seem to fit what you are asking about -- they live in an alternative state of consciousness after taking hallucinogens.
 
Autism Spectrum Disorder is an altered state of consciousness -(varying in degree)

It is known that ASD is caused by defects in dopamine metabolism and function and serotonin metabolism and function -- to include sensitivity of receptors and action of SERT and DAT

These have been tied to polymorphism that are found in ASD persons
 
serotonin2A said:
Although rare, there have also been cases of prolonged psychosis that were precipitated by hallucinogens use. It is almost certainly the case that hallucinogens do not induce psychosis, but they may be capable of accelerating or activating underlying psychopathology
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You would think it is possible for neuronal damage or changes in neuronal expression of things like parvalbumin to cause a persistent ASC, I'm sure that this would take high doses of a drug and a vulnerable individual, but it seems like it should be possible.

I know a lot of people argue about "This drug isn't neurotoxic in humans" etc, but it seems to me that with a brain that is already degenerating due to early stage neurodegenerative disease, it might be possible for normally non-neurotoxic substances to induce some neuronal degeneration in small amounts, even if the drug is just the straw that broke the camels back. If this results in persisting derealization/depersonalization etc. then maybe even that qualifies as an ASC, persistent psychosis aside. There is also the matter of HPPD, which is once again maybe another case of underlying pathology that is exacerbated by drug use.

Part of what I'm getting at is that maybe to some degree everybody has pathology.
 
I read on Longecity an interesting experiment suggested by Euphoricmind(user) to maintain euphoria as long as possible week-after-week:

This is my plan and I am thinking on looking for a perfect euphoria stack that you could take in the week :
Day 1 : coke/L-dopa/dopamine agonist
Day 2 : DXM (nmda antagonist) + sulbutiamine (to reverse dopamine agonism)
Day 3 : amphetamines/adderall (adrenaline agonist) + piracetam (to reverse nmda antagonism)
Day 4 : alcohol/benzos (gaba A agonist) + beta blocker (to reverse adrenaline agonism)
Day 5 : lsd/ssris (serotonin agonist)
Day 6 : baclofen/phenibut/ghb (gaba B agonist) + SSRE (to reverse serotonin agonism)
Day 7 : MAO inhibitors (MAO antagonist)
Click to expand...

Why would it/ wouldn't it work ?
 
There's a bunch of stuff there that wouldn't work as well as it looks on paper. This seems to rely on the fallacious idea that you can totally reverse the after-effects of one drug with another. That just ain't how it works.
(Some of the drugs are barely comparable and some of that's just wrong.... amph as an adrenaline agonist, heh. That would be yohimbine and not amphetamine. Or substituting LSD for SSRIs. Or saying baclofen = GHB.)

By day 3 you'd be a total mess. DXM plus amphetamines is a good way to get hypertensive crises happening, not to mention that it's literally the most broad spectrum "NMDA antagonist" (also SRI, NRI, sigma agonist, prodrug etc) with a long half life. In fact, a bunch of the listed drugs will be present in the body for >24 hours.

On day 7 you'd end up having a full blown serotonin syndrome, maybe plus a bonus hypertensive crisis.

It takes more than just turning on your happy receptors to produce an enjoyable time. Even people who cycle their drugs-of-abuse eventually find that the fun wears off.

Longecity is not exactly a peer reviewed journal either.
 
redfurkk said:
I read on Longecity an interesting experiment suggested by Euphoricmind(user) to maintain euphoria as long as possible week-after-week:



Why would it/ wouldn't it work ?
Click to expand...
LOL, first of all, that isn't an experiment.

Second, there are several types of changes that occur in response to drug use: molecular (such as receptor phosphorylation, extraction of receptors from membrane, etc), physical changes in synaptic and spine structure, and network changes (changes in functional connectivity that occur to compensate for the continued presence of the drug). The pharmacological manipulations listed would only partially reverse some of those changes.
 
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After a rather disastrous foray into the world of liquid acid, I ended up with full blown HPPD for about 2 years. As fun as living permanentlyin a world where everything is perpetually melting, shifting and changing colour might sound, the reality is that it's a right hassle. Not exactly bad - just hella distracting.
 
whats [hppd]? trippin for a week sounds like a winner to me, I saw the dead play in worster ma. and dropped 14 hits of asst. paper,gel,liquid and a few grams of shrooms just for good measure, I was up for 3 days seeing visuals, I loved it,hell,give me a coat hanger and a string and im happy for hours,lol,
 
capt chems said:
whats [hppd]? trippin for a week sounds like a winner to me, I saw the dead play in worster ma. and dropped 14 hits of asst. paper,gel,liquid and a few grams of shrooms just for good measure, I was up for 3 days seeing visuals, I loved it,hell,give me a coat hanger and a string and im happy for hours,lol,
Click to expand...
Hppd - hallucinatory persistent perception disorder. Means you end up tripping way after you should have come down. Your mind sort of goes back to normal, but the visuals just won't quit. I drove to work and back for months with the road disappearing into a black hole just in front of my car. House bricks wouldn't quit rearranging themselves in some endless game of tetris. And most annoyingly, all the bright colours in a supermarket made me feel like I would fall over. Thems were testing times.
 
serotonin2A said:
LOL, first of all, that isn't an experiment.

Second, there are several types of changes that occur in response to drug use: molecular (such as receptor phosphorylation, extraction of receptors from membrane, etc), physical changes in synaptic and spine structure, and network changes (changes in functional connectivity that occur to compensate for the continued presence of the drug). The pharmacological manipulations listed would only partially reverse some of those changes.
Click to expand...


Agreed, but the dose makes the poison as does the peak plasma concentration and the AUC.

Adderall XR vs Insufflated Speed

Xanax XR vs a crushed bar

low dose phenethylamine is not only plausible but experimentally validated -- a test subject consumed approximately 10-15 mg /BID MDMA sublingual/oral DAILY for over a month without any tolerance or negative impact on the subjective experience of 120 mg

subject reported a general uplifted mildly euphoric mood with increased color saturation (especially blue and violet)

multiple GRAMS of mixed ascorbate salts taken daily

subject reported hyperhydrosis identical to that experienced when starting SSRI/SSNRI therapy that resolved after several days, initial sleep disturbance - resolved, anorexic action - resolved

Subject reported MDA did not provide same success - discontinued due to dysphoric reaction and tolerance

YMMV with tryptamines
 
I fully recommend at least 10g ascorbate salt on a daily basis for anyone. Almost all mammals make their own, we and the other apes (and Guinea pigs, weirdly) have to get it from citrus or whatever. We basically live just above the scurvy line on the RDA. done quitting the opiates I take 10g a day, and I've never felt better. Mood is great too, no PAWS to speak of. Which also makes sense, ascorbate generating animals make WAY more when under stress.

There is scientific research to back this up, but I can't offer an opinion as to its authenticity. All I know is it's made a huge difference for me.

If you wish to try this, get either lupo or ascorbate salt. The normal ascorbate will shred your belly, it's acidity messes up the naturally alkaline small intestine. :)
 
How would you go to work and maintain regular functioning in society while being high all of the time? For example, I need to be able to drive, communicate with people, count money, etc... this makes no sense!
 
#facepalm
It's not about being high or anything like that...

It's about developing a year-round sustainable mindful state of Hypomania like in the movie Limitless or like in this quote of user UnicornsofFangorn on Reedit:


On the other side, there's mania. First it starts as hypomania, which is pretty fun. You are super productive, you have all the energy in the world and barely need to sleep. You are very outgoing and chatty and just feel so great about yourself. Until you go completely manic. When I am manic, I don't sleep at all. My longest time not sleeping was 14 days in a row, and during those 14 days I did SO much... like I did a 200km bike for MS on day 9 and 10 without sleep and I still had incredible energy. You have very little impulse control. You get extremely hypersexual and will want to have sex with anyone, all the time. And then you start to get delusions of grandeur, in which you truly believe that you are a God. In my case, I believed that I was sent to save the universe and that I had to go to as many countries as possible and preach about how to develop a universal energy source. I also get hallucinations and have relationships with people who don't actually exist. For example, I once believed that I was solving crimes with a detective and had many notebooks filled with nonsense revolving around that hallucination. You talk really, really quickly and always have something to say. You start to take stories you hear and honestly believe that they were part of your life. You talk about things that are extremely inappropriate because you don't realize that they are inappropriate. You have so much energy and you feel so euphoric sometimes, it's just beyond words how great it can feel. During one of my manic episodes, I was in 5 classes at university (all math and science classes) and I was also working 4 jobs. One time, I was working out intensely at least 3x a day. I spent thousands and thousands of dollars on things that I didn't need, again, because you have absolutely no impulse control. I would show up at friend's houses at 3am and wonder why they were still sleeping and why they were surprised to see me. I became extremely narcissistic, as I believed I was a God among men. If someone tries to tell you that you are acting crazy, you believe that "they" sent them to take away your happiness and your genius. And when "they" (typically doctors who a trying to medicate you) come into the picture, I get extremely paranoid. I am convinced that my psychiatrist and my boyfriend are plotting against me to take everything away from me. You do really crazy things and say things in public that people will be like, "woah... that chick is fucking crazy." Usually, you will need to be hospitalized during a manic episode to prevent you from being a danger to yourself and others.
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Furthermore, this is an experiment. No one said it had to be practical or sociably acceptable.
The purpose of this thread is only educational.
 
My latest guess is that a cycle (NOT a combination) of alterning Mescaline (<60mg) micro-dosing, Mescaline (700mg+ with no tolerance) psychonautive dosing, and known neurogenesis-promoting MAOIs/SSRIs such as Caapi tea and Tianeptine could pave the road to a brand new mind for the monkey.

Add some 4-HO-DMT, and NMDA antagonists to reset tolerance and up-regulate dopamine once in a while, and the monkey is good to go (or fly, orbit, tunnel, whatever..)

The reason why I favored M over lysergamides and tryptamines for the long run is..
.. the tolerance function.

You see, tolerance rockets exponentially for LSD for instance, and nothing but micro-dosing practice is left possible after a few days of daily use.
It isn't as bad for tryptamines, which usually fully reset in less than a week.
But Mescaline is a whole different deal.
If the tolerance doubled each day, the monkey would need tens of grams to achiever hundreds of milligrams' worth after a few days.
Yet, we have to hear about a monkey who's ingested more than 5 grams of Mescaline.
Therefore, I speculate it is possible to sustain profound daily Mescaline research over cycle spanning over the week.
This hypothesis has yet to be tested.
 
From what I've read Hunter Thompson would probably agree. Although mesc is hard enough on the body without adding things like a maoi into the mix, I'm not sure I could put up with more than 48 hours of it on its own.
 
sekio said:
There's a bunch of stuff there that wouldn't work as well as it looks on paper. This seems to rely on the fallacious idea that you can totally reverse the after-effects of one drug with another. That just ain't how it works.
(Some of the drugs are barely comparable and some of that's just wrong.... amph as an adrenaline agonist, heh. That would be yohimbine and not amphetamine. Or substituting LSD for SSRIs. Or saying baclofen = GHB.)

By day 3 you'd be a total mess. DXM plus amphetamines is a good way to get hypertensive crises happening, not to mention that it's literally the most broad spectrum "NMDA antagonist" (also SRI, NRI, sigma agonist, prodrug etc) with a long half life. In fact, a bunch of the listed drugs will be present in the body for >24 hours.

On day 7 you'd end up having a full blown serotonin syndrome, maybe plus a bonus hypertensive crisis.

It takes more than just turning on your happy receptors to produce an enjoyable time. Even people who cycle their drugs-of-abuse eventually find that the fun wears off.

Longecity is not exactly a peer reviewed journal either.
Click to expand...

DXM is perfectly safe with stims, and actually adviced to take with most drugs of abuse for tolerance reduction, yeah it has a broad sprectum of effects but memantine prevents tolerance like dxm and thats a more selective nmda antagonist. dxm is perfectly safe with sero releasers or reuptake inhibitors as theres only a certain amount of sero transporters, you can combine mdma with a ssri and dxm togheter without problem, ive never read any reports of serotonin syndrome except some vague case report of some reaction without hyperthermia which isnt sero syndrome, also nmda antagonism prevents it, atleast memantine in rodents but the dose is unclear.

I expermented with a lot of drugs, and everyyy evening the use of GBL with 2cd caused mdma like euphoria without any negative effects, during or after, maybe i felt like i slept a bit less the day after, took this combo for a while, also you can easily take gbl every evening without tolerance or addiction as long you dont take it for sleep and dont use it atleast 6 hours a day, technically gbl is extremely easy to prevent addiction with, also established in the xyrem studys, mentally for most its rather impossible tough.
i took memantine durin those weeks.

ppl even actively reversed tolerance or addiction with nmda antagonists, just 5 days of dxm was enouh to reverse my benzo withdrawals.

st johns worh keeps 5ht2 receptors upregulated and has been used to reverse mdma tolerance, dunno how effective memantine would be i havent seen enough anecdotes with regards to psychedelics, either way you can trip on dmt daily without any tolerance whatsoever, traditionally ppl take it daily for 2 months i think.

treshold doses allways keep working, also i never lost toelrance to 5 meo dalt which i took daily with ethylphenidate but it hasnt got real psychedelic effects
 
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