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Higher Tolerancy of MDMA with ADHD and ADD people.

A friend of mine who recently got diagnosed with ADHD actually was asked by her psychologist if she ever used stimulants and how she responded to them. How people react to them is apparently a telltale sign for shrinks.

I'd imagine that this would go the other way though. They're looking to see if your friend reacts well, enjoys and finds that the stimulants alleviate symptoms. So in that sense, you'd expect ADHD-diagnostic people to have a lower tolerance and better response to MDMA (providing that they're stimulant-naiive). Nevertheless, it's a flawed way of looking at it really. Chances are everyone is going to enjoy and find the ADHD stimulants therapeutic, because they're good at what they do. Even if you're perfectly normal, ADHD stimulants will increase your mood, focus & motivation.

I don't at all see ADD/ADHD as a disorder

I'd disagree with that. Like usual, it's a spectrum. The mild end of the spectrum is probably tolerable, and many people probably qualify for mild ADHD (according to symptoms). However, full ADHD & strong ADHD are certainly disorders which can debilitate someone's life without treatment. Unfortunately, those treatments usually just mask the problem (as with the stimulants), but at least they provide the individual a means of living a successful life.
 
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Not really, when I'm on meds sure a lot of the humdrum things required to make a living are easier and focus is generally better, but I only take it in times when I absolutely need it. The chaotic thoughts and increased "overall insight" which often accompanies ADD allows for some really good philosophy's and creativity. In general, life feels more like an adventure without meds. It can be a disorder if you are stuck in a lifestyle that won't allow for that but in the creative fields IE musicians/photographers/graphic design it can actually be of benefit, you just have to learn to deal with the chaos, mindfulness and meditation helped loads with that. In all honesty there are so many disorders popping up here and there that I'm of the opinion that our current society is the actual disorder, not all these labels and treatments they put on abnormal behaviours.
 
I'd imagine that this would go the other way though. They're looking to see if your friend reacts well, enjoys and finds that the stimulants alleviate symptoms. So in that sense, you'd expect ADHD-diagnostic people to have a lower tolerance and better response to MDMA (providing that they're stimulant-naiive). Nevertheless, it's a flawed way of looking at it really. Chances are everyone is going to enjoy and find the ADHD stimulants therapeutic, because they're good at what they do. Even if you're perfectly normal, ADHD stimulants will increase your mood, focus & motivation.

I would argue against this. From personal experience, and from what the psychiatrist told me, people with ADHD/ADD (ADD is actually not used anymore, it's now ADHD-PI and ADHD-PHI as of DSM-V) react differently to stimulants than other people. Because ADHD has a physical component to it. What she told me is that people with ADHD usually have some form of defect in the dopamine system. Because of that stimulants (actually amphetamines, don't know about other classes) have more of a calming effect as opposed to a real stimulating effect. This would explain why they can take higher doses of MDMA without being overstimulated. This (according to her) also explains why weed has stimulant properties for me, as it works partly on the dopamine system also...

People that do not have ADHD and take ADHD medication experience real stimulation. Of course this brings with it an increase in focus also. But the effects are different.
Calming, which increases focus for people with racing thoughts (one of the marks of ADHD)<->stimulating, which increases focus for 'normal' people, but would decrease it if you already have racing thoughts. This is the case for me too. If I take ADHD medication, I relax, my thoughts relax and this in turn increases my focus by a tenfold. If I give it to a 'normal' mate of mine, he gets all hyperactive and jittery, but because his thoughts speed up he can actually think faster and more focused too.

Well at least that's what I was told, I don't know if this is true so I could be wrong altogether :)

*edit* Crap, I read your reply too fast. You didn't say the cause of the increase in focus is not different between the two groups, just that it increases focus for both, which is true. My apologies :\
 
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Not really, when I'm on meds sure a lot of the humdrum things required to make a living are easier and focus is generally better, but I only take it in times when I absolutely need it. The chaotic thoughts and increased "overall insight" which often accompanies ADD allows for some really good philosophy's and creativity. In general, life feels more like an adventure without meds. It can be a disorder if you are stuck in a lifestyle that won't allow for that but in the creative fields IE musicians/photographers/graphic design it can actually be of benefit, you just have to learn to deal with the chaos, mindfulness and meditation helped loads with that. In all honesty there are so many disorders popping up here and there that I'm of the opinion that our current society is the actual disorder, not all these labels and treatments they put on abnormal behaviours.

I found the opposite effect from adderall/vyvanse. It really opened up my creativity, abstract thinking and overall academic train of obscure, yet logical, thought while also helping me to remain absolutely focused, motivated and content with the world. As you can probably tell, I've had some pretty great experiences with them. So great I want to get a prescription, I don't even care whether I have ADHD or not. One days studying on the stimulants is like 3 days of sober studying, and yet less painful and far more enjoyable. Fuck, I really need to get some adderall... But no sourcing JWills!
 
Because of that stimulants (actually amphetamines, don't know about other classes) have more of a calming effect as opposed to a real stimulating effect

I think you might be misinterpreting the meaning of a 'stimulant'. A stimulant doesn't necessarily mean you become psychologically hyperactive and bouncy (but of course this can happen), it simply means the drug tends to speed up peripheral and central processing as opposed to slow it down. Some people have similar confusions regarding alcohol because it's regarded as a 'depressant'. Of course alcohol doesn't make you feel depressed, it just depresses and slows down peripheral and central processing, hence why your reaction time is slower, your movement becomes less coordinated, you slur your speech etc.

What she told me is that people with ADHD usually have some form of defect in the dopamine system

I've actually wrote papers and delivered presentations on ADHD so I know what is hypothesized to occur at the neurobiological level. The dysfunction is thought to reflect the DA/NE attentional networks of frontal, parietal and striatal areas of the brain (if you're more interested in learning the networks then I can discuss it further via PM or something). Rat studies show that the neurochemical balance of DA/NE is out of sync and human studies show decreased connectivity and activation of the brain areas. All of these areas are explicitly involved in things such as maintaining attention, decision-making, reward and social interaction. Anyway I'm going off on a tangent.

People that do not have ADHD and take ADHD medication experience real stimulation. Of course this brings with it an increase in focus also. But the effects are different.
Calming, which increases focus for people with racing thoughts (one of the marks of ADHD)<->stimulating, which increases focus for 'normal' people, but would decrease it if you already have racing thoughts. This is the case for me too. If I take ADHD medication, I relax, my thoughts relax and this in turn increases my focus by a tenfold. If I give it to a 'normal' mate of mine, he gets all hyperactive and jittery, but because his thoughts speed up he can actually think faster and more focused too.

Kind of addressed this before, you're misinterpreting the meaning of stimulant. The reason the stimulants work on people with ADHD is because they hit the networks I just discussed, where people with true ADHD have deficiencies. The balance between DA/NE now becomes governed by the drug hence why it's therapeutic. People with ADHD are not immune to overstimulation just because they have ADHD. They are just as susceptible as anyone to peripheral overload, the effects are just likely to be somewhat different centrally. I've never been diagnosed, and I don't believe I have ADHD, but I do find the stimulants to produce a calming yet stimulating effect. I've also found them to make me somewhat hyperactive at times. Methylphenidate is particularly more peripheral and jittery than adderall in my experiences. Point is, stimulants can make healthy people calm and focused too. I'm not entirely sure, but I'd imagine that some people with ADHD can also become hyperactive on them. I'd say it's rather dose/setting/individual-dependent of each drug.

Anyway, relating back to MDMA, the action of MDMA is very different from ADHD stimulants. The selectivity for serotonin really doesn't directly cross with ADHD pathology, apart from the partial release of DA/NE. This is even more complex considering that serotonin actually somewhat controls DA/NE systems and so part of the release into these systems is downstream from colossal 5-HT efflux. So it's hard to know what direct action MDMA is actually taking on DA/NE and so what direct effect having ADHD will play on the MDMA experience. Pure MDMA itself is can be rather relaxing anyway, so even if someone with ADHD says it 'calms them down' this effect happens in perfectly healthy people too.

Basically, I'd place my bets on MDMA not being as 'stimulating' to people with ADHD because of strong developed tolerance to stimulants from years of daily usage. I would hypothesize that if someone is ADHD, but stimulant-naiive, then they would react very similarly to MDMA as a perfectly healthy person.
 
I see. That actually makes more sense than what I thought were the reasons behind this but raises a lot of new questions for me that I thought I already had answers to. I have to admit, I have somewhat of a grasp of the absolute basics of neurochemistry but the more advanced intricacies still elude me. That is actually a lot of information in one post that is new to me, that I had misinterpreted or that was given to me by a certain charlatan of a psychiatrist who apparently told me even more bullshit than I previously thought. I am immensely intrigued by the topic of this thread, so thanks for that detailed explanation

I've always needed higher doses than most people I know to reach satisfactory effects, though I am stimulant-naïve as I don't use and have never used other stims, apart from MDMA/MDA with sufficiently long breaks between rolls. I am also diagnosed with ADHD, though the psychiatrist that diagnosed me is questionable to say the least. But of course I am just a single example and that doesn't mean there is a causal relationship between the two, it might just mean I have a high baseline tolerance to the substance

Yeah, I would actually like to learn some more about this. If you don't mind I'll send you a PM with some questions tomorrow, when my head is a little less cloudy. Every time I am expecting a quiet night playing some pool, some asshole shouts 'tequila!'. And every time I want to shout back 'no!' and what actually comes out is 'olé!' 8(
 
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Yeah, I would actually like to learn some more about this. If you don't mind I'll send you a PM with some questions tomorrow, when my head is a little less cloudy. Every time I am expecting a quiet night playing some pool, some asshole shouts 'tequila!'. And every time I want to shout back 'no!' and what actually comes out is 'olé!' 8(

Hahaha this sounds WAY too familiar :D
 
I can confirm, as with my adderalls I have a severe tolerance to any uppers. I can handle very high doses of MDMA or anything along that line. adderall, I take 20mg 4 times a day just to function like I need to. When I party, i take upwards of 6-8 20mg addys at a time. I am prescribed on them, but I actually am pretty worthless and dull without them. Attention span is like the size of an ant lol
 
I have ADD & have taken dexedrine for years on and off. Rolls have always hit me about as hard as everyone else.
 
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