Heroin and Suboxone - Precipitated Withdrawal

[billydidit]

I have enough 8mg strips to gey myself off of heroin. Seems my reaction to heroin is a little different than most people. It actually increases my BP and heart rate if I get a high dose or if I get too much in my system at one time.

I am having a hard time not smoking long enough to start the subs. I also do not like how the heroin makes me feel anymore...scared and worried.

I have two questions:


1) If I get too high will the subs work to instantly take me back down? I have heard that the strips will cause withdrawals if you take them too soon, but what if you take them when you are currently high?

2) If I try to go as long as I can tonight and I feel aches and pain and sweat...then let's say tomorrow I take a strip. If I happen to feel worse because it is too soon, and I keep taking strips every 12 hours like the doc said to, how long before I feel good? I am asking how long it takes before the subs work and I feel better if I start too soon and am thrown into precipitated withdrawal?

thanks
billy

 

[Crashing]

Look. There is a way to do the induction that many people don't often recognize. The way you do it is, your idea about laying off tonight is a really great idea. In the morning, fold the strip up like 4 times so it creates 8 1/4" squares, the size of acid tabs. In the morning when you immediately wake up, pop one under your tongue. Pop another square under your tongue every 30-minutes to an hour until you ingested the whole strip. Then midday youll feel totally fine. Even the first dose should help you feel much better, most people dont realize the dosage ramp on suboxone is very unique, and even with a very high tolerance to dope, the suboxone will be very effective even at 1mg. If you do this method, you will NOT go into precips i promise.


The precipitated reaction comes from the stripping effect of all the receptors at once. So if you stop dope tonight, then by morning it will be very close to being all the way out of your immediate receptors. So therefore when you take the suboxone in a titrated manner, the replacement from dope to bupe happens almost unnoticeably. Most doctors don't have a shit of a clue what they're doing with opiate addicts, i can't believe they haven't caught on to this method yet.

The induction is the transition from dope to sub. Whatever you do DO NOT TAKE IT when you feel high!!!!!!! That will definitely suck... wait at least until you feel shitty to do the 1 mg at a time thing. Then after that you can start taking them normally. Once you are passed the induction you can take them however you want.

 

[billydidit]

thank you!! I will give it a try! if i can just get through the night then i will give it a try. i have been trying to smoke the min possible today but it is hard to go more than a couple hours. will 8 hours be enough then start the 1 mg hits every thirty min?

 

[Crashing]

I can't give you a definite answer. It is probably safer to go 12 hours, and then do 1mg per 30 minutes, or if you wait only 8 hours then I would suggest either doing 1mg per hour. But the more you titrate, the better off youll be. So if you waited 8 hours, then you might wanna do .5mg per 30 minutes until you knock out two millgrams, then just eat the rest of it once you know if its working properly or not. The thing is about an hour after you take the first dosage of suboxone, you will know whether or not it is working. You'll either feel better, worse, or you wont be able to tell. But the slower and more gradually you induct yourself, the safer youll be. Once you have gone through like 2 milligrams and it has been 2 hours since the first dose, you should be fine to just take the rest of the strip. It's really that initial transition that takes caution. You just want the bupe to kick the heroin out as slowly and unnoticeably as possible. Sorry if this is confusing but i think you get the point.

But even if you do start to go into precip, (which you probably wont) you'll be on low enough of a dose that it wont be a big deal, and it wont be long before the suboxone would start working. Conversely, if you took a strip right now, you would be in hell for hours and hours. My method is really good i have experienced many different types of inductions by experimenting on myself and thus have experience precip multiple times. Therefore it is really important to me to prevent it for anyone else. Full precip... It's like withdrawal times 10, so just start off taking it reallly slow.

 

[billydidit]

got it. from what I gather there are two chemicals, bupe and nalo. If you take the strip as directed (under tounge) the nalo does nothing. If you try to inject or something risky like that, the nalo kicks in and you are thrown into PW.

Assuming you are injestingas directed under tounge, you only need worry about the bupe. The bupe happens to have a stronger attraction to the receptor than heroin, so if it arrives it will actually kick the heroin off the receptor and plant itself there. If someone happens to have a lot of heroin attached to a lot of receptors, they are going to notice when the bupe arrives, especially if the bupe army arrives all at once (you suck down a full strip). Then what you would have might be the equivalent to a 2mg injection of narcan (nalo).

What you are telling me is that the longer i wait the closer I am to the safe zone where the bupe helps rather than hurts by attaching to the empty receptors that are screaming for heroin. The magic here comes from the right balance of waiting and titration. Waiting 8 to 12 hours is all that is necessary as long as I only send in a few troops at a time. What we have is a gradual replacement with a reduced risk of PW. Starting with a low titrated dose of .5 to 1 mg bupe every half hour to one hour will make me feel better and, within 2 to 3 hours, get me off of heroin and on the subs. This is great news, thanks!

 

[billydidit]

I wonder if I dissolved a strip in water if it would serve as an emergency OD method? Not a good method because the bupe would keep you in PW for at least two days right?

I wonder if 16 mg per day is too much bupe. this is what the doc prescribed. I bet I could do fine with 8mg. I do not want to deal with getting off the bupe so I do not plan to take it long. I have also heard that it takes a couple months for the brain to heal so staying on bupe is a good idea. What are your thoughts on that?

 

[cook]

I have also heard that it takes a couple months for the brain to heal so staying on bupe is a good idea. What are your thoughts on that?

Your brain will not "heal" while on bupe, it simply offers you a little bit softer (less severe but longer) landing than with cold turkey heroin WD. But you will have to be prepared for some sort of withdrawals, it is the one and only condition in which the actual "healing" occurs. There is no free way out of opiate dependency..

got it. from what I gather there are two chemicals, bupe and nalo. If you take the strip as directed (under tounge) the nalo does nothing. If you try to inject or something risky like that, the nalo kicks in and you are thrown into PW.

Nope, the naloxone does not do much anything because buprenorphine's binding affinity is higher than naloxone's. This has been proven by the sub IV addicts, there is only slight difference (mostly onset time) in injecting subutex vs. suboxone.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

got it. from what I gather there are two chemicals, bupe and nalo. If you take the strip as directed (under tounge) the nalo does nothing. If you try to inject or something risky like that, the nalo kicks in and you are thrown into PW.

That's what the manufacturers and doctors like to say, but in reality it doesn't seem true. Lots of people inject Suboxone (NOT that this is recommended) without going into precipitated withdrawals (assuming they aren't currently dependent on any other opioids of course). The theory is that buprenorphine has a higher binding affinity for receptors than naloxone, so even when injecting Suboxone the naloxone doesn't do much.

Your brain will not "heal" while on bupe, it simply offers you a little bit softer (less severe but longer) landing than with cold turkey heroin WD. But you will have to be prepared for some sort of withdrawals, it is the one and only condition in which the actual "healing" occurs. There is no free way out of opiate dependency.

Yes, you're still going to be dependent on opioids while taking bupe, but the reason that doctors suggest staying on bupe for a few months is so you have time to work on your mental addiction and get used to not using heroin (and get stability back in your life, and generally get used to feeling normal as opposed to high, although the latter does seem to vary from person to person - some people say they still feel high from their bupe). The mental addiction is much more powerful than the physical dependence, that's why so many people go back to using even after quitting opioids completely and no longer being dependent on them.

 

[80sindawind]

My experience using subs for a taper.

I used to take the sub the morning AFTER using dope the day before. Not the night before, but a full day(since we always score early morning and NEVER save some for late). I went into instant W/D after taking a sub while dope was still in my system, and it scared me pretty bad. Thought I was going to have to call 911 with how instantly terrible I started to feel. Sweating, pain in all my body, just think of opiate W/D x10. But I have taken sub 12 hours after dope sometimes even and that did not happen. I think that day if I can remember right, I had taken methadone, so that holds onto receptors a lot longer than dope. The Sub doctors though want you to wait a full 3 days, that is just my experience with it.

And for the taper, take as little as possible. The smaller the better. It is possible to do a fast taper and not become addicted to the subs. I would literally take .5mg and feel fine all day. My habit was opiates everyday for 2 years. You still wont feel 100% after you discontinue the subs, that will take at least a year. But it is at most a 21 day taper. Anything past that I would say your trading addictions. But again, finally getting off the dope is the easy part. Its what happens after when you are not physically sick, but mentally with the cravings and wanting to use.

 

[Crashing]

Also i'd add that Naloxone isn't even active until you hit around 4mgs... so for the naloxone to really affect you, one would need to inject 2 full subs which is insane. A dosage of 8mgs never needs to be exceeded, even for the most full blown addict. And 8mgs (2mg naloxone) is a very high dose. Doctors just want to sell more drugs so they'll put you on 16-32mgs per day because they don't give a shit about addicts.

 

[cook]

Yes, you're still going to be dependent on opioids while taking bupe, but the reason that doctors suggest staying on bupe for a few months is so you have time to work on your mental addiction and get used to not using heroin (and get stability back in your life, and generally get used to feeling normal as opposed to high, although the latter does seem to vary from person to person - some people say they still feel high from their bupe). The mental addiction is much more powerful than the physical dependence, that's why so many people go back to using even after quitting opioids completely and no longer being dependent on them.

But I don't see the mental addiction going anywhere in couple months, especially if the OP is waiting for the brain to "heal". It's a tough work where substitution of one addiction for another is the only realistic way out (without meds). Statistically I don't think the relapse rate changes much when the length of buprenorphine treatment is considered. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Crashing]

But I don't see the mental addiction going anywhere in couple months, especially if the OP is waiting for the brain to "heal". It's a tough work where substitution of one addiction for another is the only realistic way out (without meds). Statistically I don't think the relapse rate changes much when the length of buprenorphine treatment is considered. Correct me if I am wrong.

I think buprenorphine actually raises the relapse potential. The drug itself seems to be even more addictive than the full agonists were in the first place, because it relieves all physical and physiological cravings while sort of masking the psychological aspect of the addiction, thus creating a false awareness of the reality of the addiction that is still present. This causes the user to believe he is getting farther away from the addiction when in reality he is getting deeper into it, sort of like a drug induced reverse psychological effect. The only way to really get away is cold turkey, be it from full or partial agonists, and bupe just lengthens and strengthens the addiction. Thoughts?

 

[cook]

I think buprenorphine actually raises the relapse potential. The drug itself seems to be even more addictive than the full agonists were in the first place, because it relieves all physical and physiological cravings while sort of masking the psychological aspect of the addiction, thus creating a false awareness of the reality of the addiction that is still present. This causes the user to believe he is getting farther away from the addiction when in reality he is getting deeper into it, sort of like a drug induced reverse psychological effect. The only way to really get away is cold turkey, be it from full or partial agonists, and bupe just lengthens and strengthens the addiction. Thoughts?

I do agree with this. Buprenorphine should only be used either extremely short term (max. couple of weeks) for acute withdrawals or in very long term maintenance. Using it for some months just does not make any sense. I think it is sad ppl think there is a free ticket out from addiction to agonists with bupe.

 

[Tommyboy]

I highly suggest trying to wait 24 hours before taking the suboxone. Whenever I have waited less it has been less effective than even lower doses taken after waiting longer. They key is to wait until you are really in withdrawal, not just feeling a little shitty. When that time comes then try 2mg and wait several hours before re-dosing. A lot of people don't wait long enough for the suboxone to kick in so they take more than they really need. Recently I used one 8mg strip over four days with a daily dosing schedule of 3mg-2mg-2mg-1mg and it was pretty painless.

 

[billydidit]

Okay so here is how it went...

5:00 pm yesterday - Stopped using at 5 pm yesterday
8:00 pm yesterday - Started checking the clock, normally would already have gotten high by now
10:00 pm yesterday- Took a big toke of bud to chill out and watch a movie
11:30 pm yesterday- Took 0.25 mg klonopin to help with sleep.
3:00 am today - Woke up took another couple tokes of bud, went back to sleep
5:00 am today - Woke up, went back to sleep
7:00 am today - Woke up felt crappy [took 1 mg Suboxone] Oh crap felt the goos bumps and pain so i took a shower rolled around in agony in bed
8:00 am today - Still felt crappy [took 1 mg suboxone] and [took 0.5 mg klonopin] laid down and fell asleep
9:00 am today - woke up startled but feel much better (a little foggy) [took 1 mg suboxone] went to work
11:00 am today - At work feeling okay [took 3 mg suboxone]
12:00 pm today - feel a little jittery and a little dry mouth, called dealer no answer that's okay, feel okay a little off but still surprisingly good considering how i would feel otherwise
4:00 pm today - Feel even better. Think I will just stick with pot after work to get over the feeling/need to get "high". Got a few klonopin to help with sleep, might save for coming off the subs.

So I suppose that each morning I will try half a strip (4 mg) and see how I do for the next week. If I crave I will bump it up to 8. I plan to run this for two weeks and titrate down and then stop at 21 days.

Thank you so much for the advice. I am so happy to be free from the dope. I know I made a trade but I will not run the subs for more than three weeks and then will go cold turkey. Wish me luck. Thank you all so much I actually feel happy again.

Peace,
billy

 

[Crashing]

I'm really glad to hear the good news man you're on the right track for sure, keep us updated

 

[billydidit]

I'm really glad to hear the good news man you're on the right track for sure, keep us updated

Thanks for your help!

made my first 24 hours hells yeah... will make another post tomorrow morning with status update. starting to feel a little creaky, like i have joint discomfort. Mostly i feel happy and hungry, goin home for a nice dinner and to enjoy being "normal" for once!

 

[billydidit]

Okay I screwed up. At 5 pm on Friday I broke down and got a gram to smoke. Let me explain what led up to this.

15th - stopped using
16th - Sub induction
17th - 6 mg
18th - 8 mg
19th - no sub....broke down and got a gram to smoke.
20th - finish gram in the am
21st - start induction again

So what happened? the evening of the 18th i started feeling almost like i was getting too high. by 8 pm, which happens to be the exact highest peak level suboxone in my body i was actually worried i did not like how i felt at all. Same feeling like when i get a little too high and need to wait an hour, except with the subs it keeps getting worse.

so this time i plan to try again starting sunday. i will do same induction, but my daily doses will be 2 to 4 mg max per day. Hopefully that will help. I only went 4 days because i paniced and wanted the subs out of my system, then of course i got a craving.

I think i can get it right this time. will try again on sunday. kickin myself. =(

 

[cj]

dont do such high dose of the sub stick with 4mg a day.

 

[billydidit]

dont do such high dose of the sub stick with 4mg a day.

THANKS.

doc told me to take two strips. 16 mg per day. WTF? I'll start again with the same induction and then maintain with 4 mg ED.

Anyone else do good on 4mg?

Has anyone else had that feeling like they took too much of the subs?