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Help Me Interpret This Marquis Reaction

ketquest

Bluelighter
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
181
Hi there guys, this is a follow up to my thread "MDMA Does Not Work Anymore" here on reddit (I recommend you read it first)



So my Marquis reagent arrived today and I tested the powder and the pill (which were supposed to be real MDMA). There is no point in posting a pic because all you would see is literally what looks like a blob of black ink.

So I put a pinch of the powder in a white ceramic surface using tweezers. Then I dropped 2 - 3 drops of Marquis on top of it and it turned deep black instantly, I mean, in a fraction of a second. It did not turn purple first, then black. I repeat, instant blackness (like ink from a black pen), and it was bubbling for a while, not effervescent bubbly, but a slow bubbling like you would see on top of lava, and a thread of white smoke was rising from it.

Then I scraped a bit of the pill using a blade from my safety razor, which formed a very fine dust. I also dropped 2 - 3 drops on top of it and it also turned to black instantly, but it was a weaker black, and there was no bubbles or smoke.

So both went straight to black, with no purple or dark purple first.

What does it mean?
 
I will just add that I saw a light yellow before it turning instantly black, so I went to confirm it now if it wasn´t the color of the reagent and dropped a drop against a white surface, and the Marquis is not transparent, it has a yellowish color to it, almost like urine. Is that alright?
 
I have to leave home now, but when I get back I will post here a picture of the crystal powder, there are some rocks still intact, you can have a look.
 
Instant deep black is a good reaction, I can't recall if the Marquis reagent is meant to be clear or not, but if it's definitely not a result of the reaction then you should be good.

Is there anything in your system that could be dulling the effects? Alcohol? Antidepressants?
 
Hi Ketquest,

We have been talking about this since 2016, and your reddit post reads exactly like the many, many reports we have posted to our thread, "What is wrong with the MDMA available today."

I will follow up with more information for you shortly, but know that YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

If you sent it in to a lab, the lab would probably tell you it was MDMA.

Whether the issue is with your body or with the product is up for debate. I personally believe the issue is with the product and many other people agree with me.

Just know that this is a problem that a lot of people are having.

Regards,
Indigo
 
@Bella Figura

Nothing in my system, very clean, last time I did drugs was a year ago. Zero medication... I thought that MDMA was supposed to turn purple first, then black, not straight black... And the bubbling and smoke rising, never read anything about that.

@indigoaura

Ah nice, looking forward to your reply.

Here are some pics I took from the powder and pill - the pill says "Sprite" on top of it (MD baggies against a dark and white background too):

 
When people used to post their MDMA reagent test results on here 'straight to black, fizzing and smoke' was essentially the best reaction people could hope for, i.e. a strong reaction and you were in for a great night.

As indigoaura mentioned, there's a belief by some people that MDMA isn't as good as it used to be. I haven't experienced this phenomenon, so I don't know what to suggest!
 
@Bella Figura

That is crazy... I was clean for 1 year, and the last time I dropped a pill it wasn´t even a good pill, the same shitty effects of just giving you some hope that something will hit you, but you are just left with jaw clenching and REM.

So I thought that this time I would have a massive marvelous roll, 1 year clean and I would take supposedly pure MDMA... Then Nothing, just felt miserable afterwards, next 3 - 4 days after I took it I had bad nights of sleep and some brain zapping during the day, totally not worth the shitty night with this substance.

Someone just posted on reddit that instant black with bubbling and smoke means that what I have here is heavily cut.
 
Yeah that doesn't sound good at all! :(

especially when you haven't had it in a year, it should've hit you like a ton of blissful bricks. that really sucks!
 
@ketquest

So, as I already said, a lot of people have experienced this exact phenomenon. Most of the people who have noticed this are older MDMA users who try the new MDMA on the market and notice how different it is. What you described is just what I experienced myself. You get the jaw trembling (was yours more trembly than clenchy?) but none of the pro-social, empathetic, euphoric, sensual, tactile, or auditory effects. Quite a few people report feeling sort of sleepy and introverted on this product as well. Many of us have sent it in to a lab, but the labs say it is MDMA.

We have been discussing and debating this since April of 2016. One thing that makes it hard to sort out is that most of the people who notice the issue are experienced users, so tolerance is an obvious explanation. However, there are brand new MDMA users who have noticed the same thing, and there are experienced users who gave product like this to new users and noted that those new users did not exhibit obvious signs of rolling. So, that seems to indicate that it is not tolerance. Also, the original poster @Le Junk has access to both types of product. One produces the expected magical and euphoric effects and the other produces the shitty, subpar, meh effects.

Here is our Wiki, which contains a summary: https://mdma.noosworx.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
Here is the first thread: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/what-is-wrong-with-the-mdma-available-today.791073/
Here is the second thread: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/what-is-wrong-with-the-mdma-available-today-v2.895430/

Basically, we think that there may be a contaminant/byproduct present that is interfering in how your body is absorbing the MDMA. Another possibility is that there is an "imposter" chemical that looks like MDMA to GCMS testing, but is not MDMA. I want to emphasize that there IS high quality MDMA out there, it seems like certain regions are just not accessing it. A lot of the "imported" MDMA that claims to be from the Netherlands is shit. Your guy may have bought on the Darkweb, and I have not had any luck finding quality MDMA there.

If you don't mind, would you answer a few questions to help further our research?
Would you be willing to send this product in to a lab?
Did anyone else try this product, or could you share it with anyone and note their response?
What was your history of use with MDMA prior to going back to South America? How often did you use, and how much?
Would you mind filling out a report on our Wiki, and posting your experience in our thread?

Quoted below is my draft of the research summary which contains our current theories. I say draft because I have not revised or edited it yet, but it does contain the titles of all the research articles we have found to back up our current theories. You can find these articles on Sci-Hub.

Introduction

In April of 2016, user Le Junk posed a question to the Bluelight harm reduction message board. Since then, his thread, “What is wrong with the MDMA available today?” has garnered over 6,300 responses and spanned over 320 pages. The thread, which has attracted worldwide contributions, seeks to understand why some MDMA users experience an alternate effects profile even though the product is identified as MDMA by GCMS testing.

Throughout this discussion, two primary lines of thinking have emerged – either something is wrong with the MDMA or something is wrong with the user. “Loss of magic” is a frequently accepted phenomenon amongst MDMA users, where those who engaged in frequent MDMA use/abuse lose the ability to feel the primary effects of the drug. However, both experienced and new MDMA users have complained of experiencing an alternate effects profile from the drug, and some users claim to have access to two types of product with distinctly different effects profiles. This seems to indicate that “loss of magic” is not the reason behind the phenomenon.

Classic or “magic” MDMA produces empathy, elation, euphoria, music enhancement, and tactile enhancement. Some users also experience enhanced sensuality or sexuality. Mydriasis is a commonly observed physical sign of use that is easily witnessed by outside observers. Subpar MDMA, or “meh-DMA” as defined by the forum, fails to produce these effects. Instead, users report a cold and sedate experience that decreases sociability and encourages introspection. Mydriasis is reduced, and the overall effects of the drug feel muted in comparison to typical MDMA effects.

While discussing this phenomenon, users have developed multiple theories in association with published research articles. Although many theories have been discussed, the leading hypotheses involve MDMA contaminants, and/or GCMS inability to accurately differentiate coeluting isobaric derivatives. Contaminant profiles have changed as the result of changing synthesis methods, and these changes may have resulted in the alternate effects profile that users experience. The following research articles establish the basis of these theories.

Presence of Synthesis Byproducts

Although many labs such as Drugs Data in the USA report results of MDMA only, synthesis byproducts are present in MDMA samples. Law enforcement agencies use synthesis byproduct profiles to assist them with identifying the source of MDMA. Complex extraction techniques are sometimes used prior to analysis to separate the byproducts from the MDMA samples. These articles establish that synthesis byproducts are present in MDMA, and that byproducts/impurities vary depending on which synthesis method was used.

  • “Synthesis and impurity profiling of MDMA prepared from commonly available starting materials” by Ryan Gallagher, Ronald Shimmon, Andrew M. McDonagh (Gallagher)
  • “Impurity profiling of ecstasy tablets seized in Hong Kong by gas chromatography–mass spectrometry” by Jack Yuk Ki Cheng, Man Fai Chan, Tai Wai Chan, Mei Yuen Hung (Yuk Ki Cheng)
  • “Basic and neutral route specific impurities in MDMA prepared by different synthesis methods Comparison of impurity profiles” by M. S´wist, J. Wilamowski, A. Parczewski (S'wist)
  • “A review of impurity profiling and synthetic route of manufacture of methylamphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine, amphetamine, dimethylamphetamine and p-methoxyamphetamine” by Natasha Stojanovska, Shanlin Fu, Mark Tahtouh, Tamsin Kelly, Alison Beavis, K. Paul Kirkbride (Stojanovska)
  • “Optimization of HS-SPME/GC–MS analysis and its use in the profiling of illicit ecstasy tablets” by Federica Bonadio, Pierre Margot, Olivier Dele´mont, Pierre Esseiva (Bonadio)
  • “Determination of synthesis method of ecstasy based on the basic impurities” by M. S´wist, J. Wilamowski, A. Parczewski (S'wist, Determination of synthesis method of ecstasy based on the basic impurities)
Interference with Monoamine Transporters

“Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters” by Christian Pifl, Gabor Nagy, Sa´ ndor Bere´ nyi, Alexandra Kattinger, Harald Reither, and Sa´ ndor Antus (Pifl)

In the first article, researcher Christian Pifl establishes that some “byproducts of illegal ecstasy synthesis can interact with the primary sites of action of MDMA, the monoamine transporters, and were active with similar potency as MDMA.” In other words, some byproducts can block the action of MDMA.

“Duloxetine Inhibits Effects of MDMA (‘‘Ecstasy’’) In Vitro and in Humans in a Randomized Placebo-Controlled Laboratory Study” by Ce´dric M. Hysek et al. (Hysek)

To better understand what it may look like for monoamine transporters to be blocked in humans, consider this article on how pre-treatment with Duloxetine impacts the MDMA experience in virgin users. “The findings confirm the important role of MDMA-induced 5-HT and NE release in the psychotropic effects of MDMA” (Hysek).

Regioisomers and Isobaric Derivatives

In addition to the presence of potentially active synthesis byproducts, the presence of isobaric derivatives could explain why GCMS testing is inadequate at identifying certain contaminants. Isobaric derivatives are chemicals that are so structurally similar to MDMA that they may appear to be MDMA to GCMS testing. They may “co-elute” which means that the peak of one substance overlaps with another peak, making separation and identification challenging. These articles discuss the regioisomers and isobaric derivatives of MDMA, the advanced testing methodologies needed to successfully separate and identify these compounds, and the presence of these compounds in samples seized by law enforcement.

  • “MASS SPECTRAL AND CHROMATOGRAPHIC STUDIES ON A SERIES OF REGIOISOMERS AND ISOBARIC DERIVATIVES RELATED TO METHYLENEDIOXYMETHAMPHETAMINES” by Tamer Awad (Awad)
  • “Regioisomers of 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine in clandestine ecstasy pills” by Inmaculada Fierro et al. (Fierro)
  • “Synthesis and Analytical Profiles for Regioisomeric and Isobaric Amines Related to MDMA, MDEA and MBDB: Differentiation of Drug and non-Drug Substances of Mass Spectral Equivalence” by C. Randall Clark (Clark)
  • “Mass-Spectrometry-Based Identification of Synthetic Drug Isomers Using Infrared Ion Spectroscopy” by Kranenburg, Ruben F. et al. (Kranenburg)
  • “Chromatographic and Mass Spectral Studies on Isobaric and Isomeric Substances Related to 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine” by Laura Aalberg et al. (Aalberg)
  • “GC–MS studies on acylated derivatives of 3-methoxy-4-methyl- and 4-methoxy-3-methyl-phenethylamines: Regioisomers related to 3,4-MDMA” by Tarek Belal, Tamer Awad, Jack DeRuiter, and Randall Clark (Belal)
  • “Distinguishing drug isomers in the forensic laboratory: GC–VUV in addition to GC–MS for orthogonal selectivity and the use of library match scores as a new source of information” by Ruben F. Kranenburg (R. e. Kranenburg)
  • “Chromatographic and Mass Spectral Studies on Methoxy Methyl Methamphetamines Related to 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine” by Tamer Awad et al. (T. e. Awad)
  • “GC–MS and GC–IRD Studies on the Ring Isomers of N-Methyl-2-Methoxyphenyl-3-Butanamines (MPBA) Related to 3,4-MDMA” by Tamer Awad et al. (T. e. Awad, GC–MS and GC–IRD Studies on the Ring Isomers of N-Methyl-2-Methoxyphenyl-3-Butanamines (MPBA) Related to 3,4-MDMA)
  • “The Identification of 3,4-MDMA from Its Mass Equivalent Isomers and Isobaric Substances Using Fast LC–ESI-MS–MS” by Katja Pihlainen et al. (Pihlainen)
New Psychoactive Compounds

Also, of interest are the presence of new psychoactive compounds and analogues that GCMS testing may be incapable of identifying due to the novel nature of the compound.

“Identification of a new M-ALPHA analog and MDMA in an illegal health product” by Ji Hyun Lee et al. (Lee)

Conclusion

Although user tolerance is the most commonly accepted explanation for loss of effects in experienced MDMA users, product quality may also contribute to wide variation in user experience. The presence of undetected synthesis byproducts, inhibition of monoamine transporters, or substitution of an isobaric derivative may explain what is wrong with some MDMA today. In order to fully investigate the question and associated hypotheses, user samples would need to be analyzed with advanced lab techniques beyond simple GCMS imaging, and the results compared to subjective user reports. If you know of a researcher, university, or laboratory willing to assist with this research, please reach out to user indigoaura via the Bluelight harm reduction forum.




Works Cited​

Aalberg, Laura et al. "Chromatographic and Mass Spectral Studies on Isobaric and Isomeric Substances Related to 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine." Journal of Chromatographic Science (2004): 464-469. Web.

Awad, Tamer et al. "Chromatographic and Mass Spectral Studies on Methoxy Methyl Methamphetamines Related to 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine." Journal of Chromatographic Science, (2007): 467-476. Web.

—. "GC–MS and GC–IRD Studies on the Ring Isomers of N-Methyl-2-Methoxyphenyl-3-Butanamines (MPBA) Related to 3,4-MDMA." Journal of Chromatographic Science, (2011): 345-352. Web.

Awad, Tamer. "MASS SPECTRAL AND CHROMATOGRAPHIC STUDIES ON A SERIES OF REGIOISOMERS AND ISOBARIC DERIVATIVES RELATED TO METHYLENEDIOXYMETHAMPHETAMINES ." 15 December 2006. Auburn University. Web. 4 January 2021.

Belal, Tarek et al. "GC–MS studies on acylated derivatives of 3-methoxy-4-methyl- and 4-methoxy-3-methyl-phenethylamines: Regioisomers related to 3,4-MDMA." Forensic Science International (2008): 61-82. Web.

Bonadio, Federica et al. "Optimization of HS-SPME/GC–MS analysis and its use in the profiling of illicit ecstasy tablets." Forensic Science International (2009): 73–80. Web.

Clark, C. Randall. Synthesis and Analytical Profiles for Regioisomeric and Isobaric Amines Related to MDMA, MDEA and MBDB: Differentiation of Drug and non-Drug Substances of Mass Spectral Equivalence. Electronic. Auburn, Alabama: Department of Justice, 2011. Web.

Fierro, Inmaculada et al. "Regioisomers of 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine in clandestine ecstasy pills." ICADTS 2007. Seattle, 2007. Web.

Gallagher, Ryan et al. "Synthesis and impurity profiling of MDMA prepared from commonly available starting materials." Forensic Science International (2012): 306-313. Web.

Hysek, Ce'dric et al. "Duloxetine Inhibits Effects of MDMA (‘‘Ecstasy’’) In Vitro and in Humans in a Randomized Placebo-Controlled Laboratory Study." PLoS ONE (2012). Web.

Kranenburg, Ruben et al. "Distinguishing drug isomers in the forensic laboratory: GC–VUV in addition to GC–MS for orthogonal selectivity and the use of library match scores as a new source of information." Forensic Science International (2019): 1-13. Web.

Kranenburg, Ruben F. et al. "Mass-Spectrometry-Based Identification of Synthetic Drug Isomers Using Infrared Ion Spectroscopy." Analytical Chemistry (2020): 7282-7288. Web.

Lee, Ji Hyun et al. "Identification of a new M-ALPHA analog and MDMA in an illegal health product." Forensic Science International (2020). Web.

Pifl, Christian et al. "Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters." THE JOURNAL OF PHARMACOLOGY AND EXPERIMENTAL THERAPEUTICS 314.1 (2005): 346-354. Web.

Pihlainen, Katja et al. "The Identification of 3,4-MDMA from Its Mass Equivalent Isomers and Isobaric Substances Using Fast LC–ESI-MS–MS." Journal of Chromatographic Science, (2005): 94-97. Web.

Stojanovska, Natasha et al. "A review of impurity profiling and synthetic route of manufacture of methylamphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine, amphetamine, dimethylamphetamine and p-methoxyamphetamine." Forensic Science International 224 (2013): 8-26. Web.

S'wist, M. et al. "Basic and neutral route specific impurities in MDMA." Forensic Science International (2005): 100-111. Web.

—. "Determination of synthesis method of ecstasy based on the basic impurities." Forensic Science International (2005): 175-184. Web.

Yuk Ki Cheng, Jack et al. "Impurity profiling of ecstasy tablets seized in Hong Kong." Forensic Science International (2006): 87-94. Web.
 
@indigoaura

Sure I will answer that in a couple of days.

I have found an instruction pamphlet for marquis saying that when there is smoke it is probably DXM. I am starting to think that this stuff is DXM, I never took it but I Was googling about "DXM roll" or "DXM effects trip" "DXM similar to MDMA", and it seems that it can fool people into thinking it is MDMA because it also gives jaw clenching, eye wiggle, high body temp, all the nasty side of ecstasy.

Check:



Then I googled for DXM crystal, found this, doesn´t it look like exactly like the MDMA crystal from the pic the dealer sent to me?




But this does not change the fact that MDMA (or what is sold as MDMA) is shitty nowadays, since early 2000´s I was never able to have the same roll from the pills of "old days", not even close.
 
@indigoaura

Sure I will answer that in a couple of days.

I have found an instruction pamphlet for marquis saying that when there is smoke it is probably DXM. I am starting to think that this stuff is DXM, I never took it but I Was googling about "DXM roll" or "DXM effects trip" "DXM similar to MDMA", and it seems that it can fool people into thinking it is MDMA because it also gives jaw clenching, eye wiggle, high body temp, all the nasty side of ecstasy.

Check:



Then I googled for DXM crystal, found this, doesn´t it look like exactly like the MDMA crystal from the pic the dealer sent to me?




But this does not change the fact that MDMA (or what is sold as MDMA) is shitty nowadays, since early 2000´s I was never able to have the same roll from the pills of "old days", not even close.

I have done DXM and seen DXM reagent reactions. I doubt that is what you have. Yes, DXM does have a smoking reaction, but it is more grey. It is not that instant black response. I have tan MDMA crystal that has the same smoking black reaction that was sent to a lab. It is supposedly MDMA and not DXM. Youtube has videos of MDMA and DXM reactions if you want to check it out.

Also, DXM is a dissociative. I recall not being able to feel my legs and having delayed movement reactions when I tried to move my limbs. Very different from the subpar MDMA I have done.

Did you happen to notice whether your eyes were dilated or not?
 
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