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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

Heavy metal depositis in 1,4 Butanediol??

Mkay...first...let's dispell some myths:
It is not a circuit board cleaner. I have been working in High grade SMT soldering electronics for some years. This stuff is dissolved in H2O. Let me make this clear. In order to break down the fluxes we use for mini wave soldering on SMT Circuit boards we require very serious solvents. There is no such thing as a water soluable flux. This stuff would not clean a circuit board at all.
Nor anything else for that matter. I am the person who tried to clean some cd's. It left a nasty residue which I had to use a real CD cleaner to get off. Not to mention that it is a very poor cleaner. Why would anyone use it as such? And don't forget that many chemicals we can put in our bodies are used to clean...can anyone say WATER? or if you're that worried how about all of the detergents we use on our dishes?
Also look at the chemistry behind it.
OH(C2)4OH
There is no need for any precursers containing ANY heavy metals for this reaction.
And it must be easy and cheap to make as it is used largely in the paper/printing industry to polymerise paper, so it can't contain any exotic precursers.
And here's quote for you "BD is the ethynylation product of acetylene and formaldehyde; a bifunctional primary alcohol"
And for those who know...alcohol is a simple sugar.
Oh yeah....source document...
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ghb/1-4B_datasheet.pdf
k...I think I've made a bit of a case. So far it looks like it is make from acetylene (gas...no heavy metals) and formaldehyde (also no heavy metals) and ethynol? (well...alcohol...polish spirit
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)
So any additional thoughts?
Cheers...
DB
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PS...sorry if I came across a bit too strongly...I am sick of people saying how amazingly bad it is for us when everything they say is wild extrapolation or something they heard from someone who knows someone who works with someone who knows a guy who makes the shit. C'mon...we are Bluelighters...let's do some real research and look into it. I see no scientific evidence to show that this is more harmful than alcohol! (ok bad example
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)
But still...let's use some scientific method for a change Mkay?
Cool...peace....sorry for the second outburst.....
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*hugs all 'round*
*big cheesy dimpled grin*
[This message has been edited by Darkblade (edited 17 January 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Darkblade (edited 17 January 2001).]
 
Ok so we have it that the supplier admits it contains "some heavy metals" ? !
The conversion in your liver is'nt the ideal health kick. !
Will this be enough to stop anyone drinking it?
How dangerous do we think it is with this information so far?
DB who and what were you refering to exactly????
"PS...sorry if I came across a bit too strongly...I am sick of people saying how amazingly bad it is for us when everything they say is wild extrapolation or something they heard from someone who knows someone who works with someone who knows a g
[This message has been edited by White Smoke (edited 17 January 2001).]
 
White Smoke...I wasn't referring to anyone in particular at all...there's nothing to be angry about...it's a discussion about whether or not 1,4BD contains heavy elements...and as I said...I see no evidence to prive that there is...
Let me extrapolate some more...
First let me get this in perspective...we don't have it that someone admits that it contains "some heavy metals". If we read the comment they say GBL contained less heavy metals than pharmeceutical grade. For a start GBL and 1,4 BD are different substances and secondly if you take a grade used for Pharms...then well? What do you think? That they use it in pharmecy with heavy metals in it?
I don't see a single iota of evidence that points to this product containing heavy metals...it is certainly not anywhere in the synthesis...contamination perhaps? I seriously doubt it. For a start...industrial products are screened for heavy metal content...imagine if OS&H found out that the local cleaners were cleaning the floors with mercury and lead...not to mention all of the polymers we use (yes...it's used in hte manufacture of plastics) would be full of HM as well...and we wrap foods and things in it. Current affairs and all of theose programs would have a field day. I might go work in a paper printing place and check their inks to see how much is in them...as it is also used for a carrier for inks. I'm sure that it would go down well seeing all the printer paper in the world contaminated by HM's.
Seriously...this is tres sad. I don't see anyone with a synthesis technique that uses products with HM's and I don't see any application which would tolerate HM contamination.
And finally as for the liver. It works harder breaking down toxic substances on our inorganic vegetables and hormones from all our meat products everyday than an occational use of BD. Half the population drink in excess more than once a week, this alcohol..simple sugar (just like BD) and this damages ur liver...which is worse? there are no studies that I can find or think of.
I'm not saying yeah, let's all o out and drink BD by the bucket full every night...I think that used in moderation, like every other chem, it's safe enough if you know what ur doing...and there's no need to worry about heavy meatals...to me that myth is akin to the LSD myth about burning holes in ur brain.
Relax and enjoy the ride...
DB
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[This message has been edited by Darkblade (edited 18 January 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Darkblade (edited 18 January 2001).]
 
Thanks heaps Darkblade and everyone else for shedding some light
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GBL is indeed gamma-Butyrolactone, which is an cyclic ester of
gamma-hydroxybutyric acid (GHB). GBL is easily converted to GHB (GHB has
one hydroxyl group at one end, and a carboxylic acid group at the other),
both in the kitchen and in the body, by cleavage of the ester linkage using
acid or base catalysis. GBL is certainly a solvent, but so is Alcohol
(Ethanol) if you look at it from a chemical point of view. Don't be too
scared by the 'solvent' word, but do respect the material and understand
your body's limitations for dealing with chemicals that can disrupt cell
walls, and remove protective mucus linings when consumed straight (ouch!). Consider dilution and
protective additives prior to consumption!
1,4 - butanediol (BDO or if you like gamma-hydroxybutanol) is also a
solvent. It has two 'hydroxyl' groups, one at each end. When BDO is
selectively oxidized, in the kitchen or in the body, you get
gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB or gamma-hydroxybutyric acid). You actually oxidise one hydroxyl group to a
carboxylic acid. The body does it with relative ease, in much the same way
that it does it with alcohol, using 'dehydrogenase' enzymes. It is not like
drinking methylated spirits at all, it's like drinking alcohol. It is used
pharmaceutically as a humectant I believe, in small amounts. Quite common, even in the food industry. It's also a very
nice solvent thanks for asking! Depends on your application, and definition
of solvent, and requirements for removal. Your liver does about as much
work converting this stuff to GHB as it does when you drink alcohol, perhaps
a little more (I'm guessing here!), and I do that (alcohol) ALL the time (but not at the same
time as GHB/BDO) without deleterious effects. And how fast does your liver
process alcohol? About 20mL an hour I think (Yeah?)! Quite an efficient beastie
really!
So - heavy metals:
These are traditionally the 'transition metals' in the periodic table, usually those higher molecular weight metals that combine with sulphides to form insoluble precipitates. There are many of them, eminating from all over the place, some more toxic than others. The presence of these depends on how it was made and stored. Heavy metals
come from MANY places, not limited to the raw materials used to make it.
They can also come from the reactor it's made in, from the pipes used to
transfer and fill it, from the catalysts used (if any), from the 'solvents'
used to extract or react the materials in, from the storage containers,
carry-over from the previously manufactured materials, from the filters,
from the decanting equipment, from the plastic bottles it's finally packed
in, etc. Point being, heavy metals are everywhere in everyday life. The
issue of removal, or purification, is not usually as simple as filtering.
They can be present as dissolved ions, not just an easily removed
precipitate. Usually you control them in the manufacture and storage,
because once they're in there they are difficult to remove. You can
certainly distil it yourself, but geez you have to be well set up and
CAREFUL, and that only tends to remove 'solids' not other crap!
Alternatively, buy a 'purer' grade that has been distilled. I quite sure
that activated charcoal won't remove heavy metals, but would help to remove
organics such as other solvents.
So it comes down to a matter of SOURCE. What grade are you getting, how is
it being handled, and what is being added to it?
If you buy Lab grade, you should get a Certificate Of Analysis detailing the
various quality limiting characteristics of the brand and grade that you
bought. Reputable chemical supply stores will provide these, and you can
usually find many different grades such as Analytical or High Purity etc.
They may well use GBL for cleaning electrical componentry. That DOESN'T
mean it has to dissolve flux (!), it just means it can be used to perhaps
remove dust without interfering with the circuitry. I'm not certain of the
relative levels of Heavy Metals allowable in that grade. It may need to be
'pure', but I'm unsure as to the purity requirements. For example, it could
mean low heavy metals, or INSTEAD could just mean low particlate levels.
Pharmaceutical Grade is always very low in Heavy Metals, as the industry has
tight standards for the control of heavy metals. If you bought it from the
local hardware store in a tin you've got to be an idiot to drink it. No
Quality Control, and probably FULL of crap including other solvents. Remember that it's all to do with the 'route of administration'. Something you inject has to be a better grade with less impurities than something you swallow, because it bypasses the bodies defence mechanisms. Similarly, something you handle can probably be less pure, and something you wipe onto your circuitry can probably be full of stuff as long at it doesn't interfere with the circuitry. Remember that the 'application' for the material will determine it's relative purity. For my money, I'd be buying pharmaceutical grade. This is not just about heavy metals, but also other impurities such as Arsenic, other solvents, bacteria and fungii (yes - they can live in ANYTHING), impurities in general, blah and blah.
I'd store my BDO in the fridge, and consume in a short-ish amount of time (DON'T just scull it all at once either!). Otherwise I'd freeze it until I wanted to use it.
I'd like to know where Mr Darkblade gets his info on heavy metals levels of
various precursors, as it's my experience that they can be present in most raw materials, even gasses.
Perhaps Johnboy can provide that link to the GHB article?
B.
Chemical Generation
P.S. Sorry about the hideously long post!
 
I second that, thanks.
As Chem Gen said, just because its a "simple" chemical, does not mean heavy metals r not present in the synthesis.
Esp since the use of catalysts (which often involve heavy metals) is becoming extremely common in all types of organic synthesis. Esp on an industrial scale => solvent manufacture.
 
thanks chem gen. info of this quality is appreciated.
------------------
Computer games don't effect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
 
Thanks for clearing that up. I always wondered about the possibility of heavy metal transferrence though gasses etc...as everyone knows, I'm not a chemist. If heavy metals abound then we must be consuming them unknown all the time. As for the 2% figure...do you think it's a little out of proportion?
More knowledge the better...
DB
 
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